Chatter Lawfare
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- Society & Culture
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Weekly long-form conversations with fascinating people at the creative edges of national security. Unscripted. Informal. Always fresh.
Chatter guests roll with the punches to describe artistic endeavors related to national security and jump into cutting-edge thinking at the frontiers where defense and foreign policy overlap with technology, intelligence, climate change, history, sports, culture, and beyond. Each week, listeners get a no-holds-barred dialogue at an intersection between Lawfare's core issue areas and something from Hollywood to history, science to spy fiction.
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Margaret Mead, Psychedelics, and the CIA with Benjamin Breen
If you’re listening to this podcast, chances are you’ve heard stories about the CIA’s experiments with drugs, particularly LSD, during the infamous MKUltra program. But you may not know that the characters involved in that dubious effort connect to one of the 20th Century’s most famous and revered scientists, the anthropologist Margaret Mead.
Shane Harris talked with historian Benjamin Breen about this new book, Tripping on Utopia, which tells the story of how Mead and her close circle launched a movement to expand human consciousness, decades before the counterculture of the 1960s popularized, and ultimately stigmatized, psychedelic drugs. Mead and Gregory Bateson--her collaborator and one-time husband--are at the center of a story that includes the WWII-era Office of Strategic Services, a shady cast of CIA agents and operatives, Beat poets, and the pioneers of the Information Age.
Psychedelics are having a renaissance, with federal regulators poised to legalize their use - Breen’s book is an engrossing history that explores the roots of that movement and how it influenced and collided with the U.S. national security establishment.
Books, movies, and other points of interest discussed in this conversation include:
Tripping on Utopia: Margaret Mead, the Cold War, and the Troubled Birth of Psychedelic Science by Benjamin Breen Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age by Norman Ohler MKUltra The intelligence community’s research on “truth drugs” The Manchurian Candidate The Good Shepherd Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control by Stephen Kinzer The Men Who Stare at Goats by Jon Ronson Ghost Hunters: William James and the Search for Scientific Proof of Life After Death by Deborah Blum “Operation Delirium” by Raffi Khatchadourian in The New Yorker
Also check out:
Ben’s website Ben’s Substack Ben on Twitter
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Spy Disguises in Fact and Fiction with Jonna Mendez
Jonna Mendez advanced in her Central Intelligence Agency career to become Chief of Disguise despite the many institutional challenges to women's promotions. And now she has written a memoir, In True Face, about it all.
David Priess spoke with Jonna about career options for women at CIA in the early Cold War, her own start there in the 1960s, how photography classes set her on a path that ultimately led to service as Chief of Disguise, her interactions over the decades with Tony Mendez, the tandem-couple problem for intelligence professionals, semi-animated mask technology and other CIA disguises, her experience briefing President George H. W. Bush in the Oval Office, how the story behind the Canadian Caper became declassified and eventually the movie Argo, the International Spy Museum, and more.
Among the works mentioned in this episode:
The book In True Face by Jonna Mendez
"How the CIA Used a Fake Sci-Fi Flick to Rescue Americans from Tehran," by Joshuah Bearman, WIRED, April 24, 2007
The movie The Ides of March
The movie Argo
The book Argo by Antonio Mendez and Matt Baglio
The book The Master of Disguise by Antonio Mendez
The movie Mission Impossible
The TV show The Americans
The TV show Homeland
The movie Casino Royale
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
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The Moon, Tides, and National Security with Rebecca Boyle
We all know how superpower competition spurred one giant leap for mankind on the lunar surface in July 1969. But the story of how the Moon and its tides affect national security is deeper and wider than most of us realize.
David Priess explored this intersection with science journalist Rebecca Boyle, author of the new book Our Moon, about her path to writing about astronomy, Anaxagoras, Julius Caesar, lunar versus solar calendars, the Battle of Tarawa in 1943, the genesis of NOAA, tides and flooding, Johannes Kepler, Jules Verne and science fiction about travel to the Moon, lunar missions and the Cold War, the Moon's origins, the return of lunar geopolitical competition, prospects for a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon, and more.
Among the works mentioned in this episode:
The book Our Moon by Rebecca Boyle
The book From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne
The movie Fantasia
"Massive New Seamount Discovered in International Waters Off Guatemala," from the Schmidt Ocean Institute, November 22, 2023
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. -
President Biden’s Foreign Policy with Alex Ward
Joe Biden took office with a big ambition: To repair America’s reputation abroad and set the country on a new path, where foreign policy would be crafted with the middle class in mind. So writes journalist Alexander Ward, whose new book, The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, chronicles Biden’s first two years in the White House.
The central players in Ward’s cast as the president’s senior advisers, chief among them National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, who, four years earlier, had expected to be serving in the Hillary Clinton administration. Ward joined Shane Harris to talk about the Biden team's early efforts to sketch out a new agenda, the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the triumphs of the early days of war in Ukraine. His book offers a detailed, behind-the-scenes look at what may be one of the most experienced teams of foreign policy experts in a generation.
Ward is a national security reporter at Politico. He was part of the reporting team behind one of the biggest scoops in recent memory, the leak of a draft opinion by the Supreme Court that overturned Roe v. Wade. Ward was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for his reporting.
Among the works mentioned in this episode:
Ward’s book, The Internationalists: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/704738/the-internationalists-by-alexander-ward/
An excerpt from the book: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/19/jake-sullivan-globalization-biden-00141697
Ward’s newsletter at Politico: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily
Ward’s scoop on the Supreme Court’s abortion ruling: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/02/supreme-court-abortion-draft-opinion-00029473
Ward on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexbward?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
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Life and Death in Ukraine with Journalist Christopher Miller
In February 2022, Russia launched a full scale invasion into Ukraine in the largest attack on a European country since World War II. This invasion did not start a new war, but escalated the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War that started in 2014 when Russian forces captured Crimea and invaded the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
In his book, “The War Came to Us: Life and Death in Ukraine,” author and journalist Christopher Miller tells the story of the past fourteen years in Ukraine through his personal experiences living and reporting in Ukraine since 2010. For this week’s Chatter episode, Anna Hickey spoke with Chris Miller about his book, what led to the full scale invasion in 2022, the 2014 capture of Crimea, and his journey from being a Peace Corps volunteer in Bakhmut in 2010 to a war correspondent.
Among the works mentioned in this episode:
The book, “The War Came to Us: Life and Death in Ukraine,” by Christopher MillerThe article, “Documents show Russian separatist commander signed off on executions of three men in Sloviansk” by Christopher MillerThe book, "Voroshilovgrad" by Serhiy Zhadan
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
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The Global Citizenship Industry with Kristin Surak
Some people call it "investor citizenship" while others label it a "passport for sale" scheme. Either way, the last few decades have seen the global citizenship industry grow and evolve in ways that both reflect and impact issues around national sovereignty, tax regimes, international business, and global inequities.
David Priess chatted about these and related issues with political sociologist and author Kristin Surak, whose recent book The Golden Passport takes a multidisciplinary look at global mobility for the wealthy and the complex system that has developed around it. They discussed the new "most powerful passport" rankings, the types of people who seek different citizenship through investment, Turkey's rise as a major Citizenship By Investment (CBI) player, the rise and fall of the program in Cyprus, how intermediary companies power the CBI system, the trailblazing CBI role of St. Kitts and Nevis, the challenges of European countries attempting to start and keep CBI programs, differing perceptions of CBI around the world, issues of equity and ethics, and the recent phenomena of digital nomads.
Among the works mentioned in this episode:
"The Henley Passport Index", Henley & Partners
The book The Golden Passport: Global Mobility for Millionaires by Kristin Surak
The book Moneyland by Oliver Bullough
The book Making Tea, Making Japan by Kristin Surak
The book The Despot's Guide to Wealth Management by J. C. Sharman
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Customer Reviews
Space Settlements & Law
Suggest additional resources written by Robert A. Heinlein especially “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.” John Scalzi’s series, the first book” Old Man’s War”. Mary Robinette Kowal's series, starting with “ The Lady Astronaut”.
Very Solid Project
Great hosts. Fun & interesting topics.
Love where this podcast is going!
Keep up the good work!
Liza Mundy was a treat!
I loved her stories and bought her book before the interview ended. Please tell her what a great episode it was to hear about women and I'm excited to listen to her audiobook.