New Kinship

David Frank and TJ Espinoza
  • 5.0 (11)
  • CHRISTIANITY

Welcome to New Kinship, where we are exploring and renewing ideas of belonging, desire, and being a neighbor in the Kingdom of Jesus. Together we are pursuing the communion and shalom of the church and the world. Pull up a chair and join the conversation! newkinship.substack.com

  1. 3D AGO

    #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

    In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender. Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman" (02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood" (07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans (08:25) Defining: Gender (12:09) Do souls have a gender? (15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order? (19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out? (25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family (32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve? (39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically" (42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric (48:01) Connections to transhumanism (53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people (59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female (01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology (01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 25m

  2. 4D AGO

    #76 - Bearing Witness through Change: Odessa the Barefoot on Transition, Faith, and Femininity

    In this episode, Odessa—a transgender woman and former Anglican priest—shares her journey of transition alongside a deep wrestling with faith, vocation, and identity. She reflects on growing up with alienation and shame, the freedom she’s found in embracing her femininity, and the costs of that journey for her family, church, and relationships. Odessa also explores the intersections of gender, neurodivergence, and spirituality. We appreciate her a candid reflection on seeking wholeness without easy answers. This is Part 1 of 2—listen to Part 2 here when it’s available: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-odessa-the-barefoot-on-being Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #76 - Bearing Witness through Change: Odessa the Barefoot on Transition, Faith, and Femininity (02:45) Gender transition is a discontinuous experience (06:04) Looking for words to share with a trusted adult (18:34) Discontinuities: Being in seminary, married, autogynephilia (23:18) Honoring prior commitments by not outwardly transitioning (27:03) “My metaphysics does not allow” for hormones to be this effective... (37:24) The project(s) of femininity and womanhood (40:25) Theological traditions and eccentric Anglican priests (43:54) Same-sex attraction was different than gender/trans experience for me (46:46) Being released from prior commitments: Trans impact on family, church (56:19) Bearing witness: ministering to others — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 5m

  3. JAN 21

    #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism

    David Frank and TJ talked with historian Dr. Dan Hummel about why many Evangelical Christians support the modern state of Israel—and its implications for kinship between Christians and Jews. Dan traces the theological roots of Christian Zionism, the rise of dispensational theology, and some political and social effects we see today. We also covered how Christians have related to Jewish communities more broadly, and what kinship can or should look like for us, going forward. ★ About Our Guest Daniel G. Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He received his PhD in American Religious History from UW-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and *Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations* (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019). You can also find him at www.danielghummel.com. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism(03:24) Dan’s history with Israel and Evangelicals(09:50) Ask an academic: define “evangelical”(13:47) Ask an academic: define “Christian Zionism”(17:31) Christian Zionism goes back to the 16th century(20:54) What IS dispensationalism?(25:13) Dispensationalism: So, is God a polygamist?(28:08) What does “supporting Israel” mean to Christian Zionists?(33:04) Zionism also relates: Judeo-Christian values, anti-Islam, American politics(39:21) What theology is needed, to be pro-peace for Israel/Palestine? (47:27) How can, and should, Christians think about their relationship to Jews? (01:00:50) Final thoughts: What we hold sacred — ★ Links and References * The “Bebbington Quadrilateral” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Bebbington * For some of the political dynamics to Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s article in New Lines Magazine on the political unrest in Israel, pre-Oct 7: newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals * For some theological and interfaith dimensions of Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s 2018 essay for Aeon: aeon.co/essays/christian-zionism-the-interfaith-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight * G. Douglas Young, the founder of Bridges for Peace, a prominent Christian Zionist organization, wrote The Bride and the Wife (1960). — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 7m

  4. 12/31/2025

    #74 - "If We Say We Love LGBT People..." - Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness

    Taka Chan has been a queer, celibate Christian in campus ministry long enough to have seen both deep friendships and losses. He joined David and TJ to share stories of friends, pastors, and communities who have walked with him—and those who haven’t. We hope you’re encouraged by his reflections on God’s provision, even in the midst of uncertainty about what comes next. Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ About Our Guest Taka Chan was born and raised in rural Hawaiʻi and has been working in college campus ministry for 18 years. He loves gardening, cooking for large groups of people, and taking classes at the Y with a bunch of grandmas. Ask him about his recent TV binges (The Pitt, Pachinko, Abbott Elementary) and what homework he’d suggest if you intend to visit Hawaiʻi. You can email him at [takachanaloha -at- gmail.com]. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #74 - “If We Say We Love LGBT People...” Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness (01:11) Taka Chan: Hawai’i, family, coming out to myself and others (06:55) College in the time of ex-gay thought (11:55) “I try to be gentle with my younger self” (18:00) Single and married to everyone (23:49) Pastors going to bat for you (32:02) What do you do when friendships fail? (41:30) Evangelical ministry: If we’re saying we love LGBT people...how? (56:17) An employee resource group: we won’t be frozen in fear any more (01:00:46) Intersections: Being queer, being Japanese and Chinese (01:07:52) Why are you not Side A? (01:11:55) Being an “elder” in the Side B movement, and those who came before (01:15:20) What’s the future for you? (Intentional community?) — ★ Links and References Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016) — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!: Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship or newkinship.substack.com — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 20m
  5. BONUS - Catching up with Zach, 6 Months Later

    12/11/2025 · BONUS

    BONUS - Catching up with Zach, 6 Months Later

    Sometimes--as in the case of Rev. Zach from Ep. 73--we record an episode with folks and then, before we can release it, life takes interesting turns. Since talking to us 6 months ago, Zach is in the process of leaving the Episcopal denomination in the US and considering his ministerial call in a new way. He stopped by (metaphorically) to update us and share some more thoughts. We’re grateful for his ongoing discernment and willingness to bring us along! Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    25 min

  6. 12/10/2025

    #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B

    Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zach talked about the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking. We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination. —What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ About Our Guest Rev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B (02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions (17:53) A call to the priesthood (27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others) (35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact (41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A (48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological? (55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God (59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B? (01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church? (01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean? — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 20m
  7. BONUS - Finding Kinship Across the Border | Martina's Asylum Story

    12/03/2025 · BONUS

    BONUS - Finding Kinship Across the Border | Martina's Asylum Story

    Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community! Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death, so some friends and I raised funds to help cover her legal fees so she could be represented in immigration court and fight to stay here. I'm grateful to God for all who helped leverage their resources to support this case. Thanks friends! Sincerely, David — ★ Timestamps (00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story (04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador (05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey (12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption (21:18) Fleeing to the United States (22:24) Life in the United States (25:04) Finding Hope and Community (34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    37 min

  8. 11/19/2025

    #72 - The Conversion Therapy Debate: Dr. Julia Sadusky on the Chiles vs. Salazar Case

    Dr. Julia Sadusky, a Catholic and licensed psychologist from Colorado, joins David and TJ to unpack the Chiles vs. Salazar Supreme Court case and what’s behind the debates around conversion therapy. Julia talks about how she brings together her faith and psychology, and why—as a conservative Christian—she chose to support Colorado’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, through an amicus brief. We are grateful for the nuance and clarity Julia offers in this (often heated and stressful) conflict in the courts and in our church circles, and we invite you to take that same posture of openness and care, as you listen. ★ About Our Guest Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor’s degree from Ave Maria University and a master’s degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, “Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and “Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2024). You can find her at juliasadusky.com. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A,” “Side B,” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to that conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) Quick intro, Side A, Side B, Side X (02:58) Introducing Julia: Now you know a psychologist from Delaware (06:17) How (can) psychology and Christian faith go together (08:17) What is conversion therapy? (12:33) Conversion therapy success rates? Digging into Joseph Nicolosi’s research (22:47) What about “reintegrative therapy”? Measuring “change in attraction” (25:59) History of changing diagnoses, reports on conversion therapy (29:21) OK, so, the current case: Chiles vs. Salazar (40:40) Is this more about conversion therapy? or religious freedom? Is therapy “speech”? (45:58) How do contemporary trans politics overlap (or hype) this case? — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    53 min
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Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
11 Ratings

About

Welcome to New Kinship, where we are exploring and renewing ideas of belonging, desire, and being a neighbor in the Kingdom of Jesus. Together we are pursuing the communion and shalom of the church and the world. Pull up a chair and join the conversation! newkinship.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    David Frank and TJ Espinoza
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    91
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © New Kinship
  • Show Website
    New Kinship