Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

Patrick McKenzie
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We live in a world where our civilization and daily lives depend upon institutions, infrastructure, and technological substrates that are _complicated_ but not _unknowable_. Join Patrick McKenzie (patio11) as he discusses how decisions, technology, culture, and incentives shape our finance, technology, government, and more, with the people who built (and build) those Complex Systems.

  1. APIs of evil: studying fraud as infrastructure

    9H AGO

    APIs of evil: studying fraud as infrastructure

    Patrick McKenzie (patio11) reads an essay about "industrial-scale" fraud and why it should be treated as a professional business process rather than a series of isolated accidents. He explains how fraudsters leverage specialized supply chains—shared CPAs, incorporation agents, and "least attentive" banks—to loot public funds. Patrick argues that the government’s "pay-and-chase" model is fundamentally broken and suggests that simple "proof of work" functions, like a 30-second cell phone video of a workspace, could provide the visceral signal that paperwork lacks, and examines the state’s lack of "object permanence" regarding serial fraudsters and how scaled data provides the defense-side advantage needed to catch modern frauds. – Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/fraud-as-infrastructure/ –Presenting Sponsor: Mercury Complex Systems is presented by Mercury—radically better banking for founders. Mercury offers the best wire experience anywhere: fast, reliable, and free for domestic U.S. wires, so you can stay focused on growing your business. Apply online in minutes at mercury.com. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column N.A., Members FDIC.– Links: Bits about Money: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/fraud-investigation/ Dan Davies on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5QKxzgumJXSQuaWCmYAoM9 Jetson Leder-Luis on Complex Systems podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3NiC7x9edoxJXkNW9vRfAT Stripe’s Emily Sands on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/64Dyh6Gbg1lg4qUFwId0hc – Timestamps: (00:00) Intro(05:23) In which we briefly return to Minnesota(09:26) Common signals, methods, and epiphenomena of fraud(09:30) Fraudsters are playing an iterated game(11:29) The fraud supply chain is detectable(14:27) Investigators should expect to find ethnically clustered fraud(20:11) Sponsor: Mercury(21:47) High growth rate opportunities attract frauds(26:04) Fraudsters find the weakest links in the financial system(32:35) Frauds openly suborn identities(35:57) Asymmetry in attacker and defender burdens of proof(40:13) Fraudsters under-paperwork their epiphenomena(44:22) Machine learning can adaptively identify fraud(48:14) Frauds have a lifecycle(50:34) Should we care about fraud investigation, anyway

    51 min
  2. Why check cashing businesses exist

    FEB 5

    Why check cashing businesses exist

    Patrick McKenzie (patio11) reads an essay about the business of check cashing, a misunderstood industry. He explains why cashing a check is actually a "new credit extension" where the bank bets on both the writer and the payee, and why profit-maximizing institutions often decline to bank individuals who represent even a "material risk" of a single bounced check. From the manual "rituals" of endorsement to the way fintechs like Ingo Money and Cash App use persistent identity to narrow the risk envelope, Patrick examines the technical and social reasons why some people pay to access their own wages, others don’t, and whether we can do anything about that. – Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/check-cashing/ –Presenting Sponsor: Mercury Complex Systems is presented by Mercury—radically better banking for founders. Mercury offers the best wire experience anywhere: fast, reliable, and free for domestic U.S. wires, so you can stay focused on growing your business. Apply online in minutes at mercury.com. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column N.A., Members FDIC.– Links: Bits about Money: www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/the-business-of-check-cashing/ – Timestamps:(0:00) Introduction(2:15) Check cashing(2:57) An oversimplified explanation of check presentment(5:48) Depositing a check requires an extension of credit(10:47) How cashing a check works if you're not banked(12:16) A brief aside about endorsement(14:39) Many people hate check cashing and everything about it(17:06) The internal logic behind that pricing grid(19:59) Sponsor: Mercury(21:36) The internal logic behind that pricing grid (continued)(23:10) Persistent  identities as a KYC possibility(25:12) A brief discussion about class distinctions in America(30:45) Check cashing on phones(34:28) Outro

    38 min
  3. Claude Code makes several thousand dollars in 30 minutes, with Patrick McKenzie

    JAN 29

    Claude Code makes several thousand dollars in 30 minutes, with Patrick McKenzie

    Patrick McKenzie (patio11) walks through a coding session with Claude Code to demonstrate what the fuss is about. The business problem: recovering failed subscription payments that required coordinating APIs across Stripe, Ghost, and email providers, and the surprising experience of watching Claude read documentation, resolve dependency conflicts, and make sensible security choices. The episode offers a pedantic level of detail on why the sharpest technologists use words like “fundamentally transformed” to describe the impact of LLMs on coding. – Full annotated transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/claude-code/ –Sponsor: Framer Building and maintaining marketing websites shouldn’t slow down your engineers. Framer gives design and marketing teams an all-in-one platform to ship landing pages, microsites, or full site redesigns instantly—without engineering bottlenecks. Get 30% off Framer Pro at framer.com/complexsystems.– Links: Odd Lots episode with Noah Brier: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2fd3hvYmplEnQzxYZaxPg3?si=ylFxFe3HQ4uivH29uqC_rABits about Money: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/ – Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (02:21) All engineering work happens in a business context (03:47) Payment failures briefly taxonomized (08:25) Now follows a conversation with Claude Code (20:37) Sponsor: Framer (21:53) Conversation with Claude Code (continued) (39:07) My final thoughts on this (41:15) Wrap

    42 min
  4. We should stop burning pharma trials’ lab notes, with Ruxandra Teslo

    JAN 22

    We should stop burning pharma trials’ lab notes, with Ruxandra Teslo

    Patrick McKenzie (patio11) is joined by Ruxandra Teslo to discuss why drug development keeps getting more expensive despite revolutionary new treatment modalities from GLP-1 agonists to gene therapies. They discuss Eroom’s Law (Moore’s Law in reverse) and Ruxandra's Common Technical Document Project, which aims to build the "Stack Overflow of clinical development" by making regulatory submissions publicly accessible. This will fill a present hole in the education of researchers, lower barriers for small biotechs, and accelerate drug discovery.– Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/ruxandra-teslo/ –Sponsor: FramerBuilding and maintaining marketing websites shouldn’t slow down your engineers. Framer gives design and marketing teams an all-in-one platform to ship landing pages, microsites, or full site redesigns instantly—without engineering bottlenecks. Get 30% off Framer Pro at framer.com/complexsystems. –Links:Eroom's Law (original paper): https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd3681Ruxandra’s writing: https://www.writingruxandrabio.com/ Ross Rheingans-Yoo on drug development: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4GiO0KYqxJNCIdltCyhN6m?si=2znQniZ3RXKuX8keNcwWtw Ben Reinhardt on science and development: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0GHegWgLSubYxvATmbWhQu?si=pVCJVITYTqaq65BiST2d0Q –Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:56) Challenges in biopharma productivity(03:12) Understanding clinical development(04:59) The role of basic science in drug development(07:39) Clinical development process explained(09:25) Issues in clinical trials and development(19:33) The role of information in clinical trials(20:30) Sponsor: Framer(21:42) The role of information in clinical trials (continued)(32:55) Proposed solutions for clinical development(40:31) Consultant opinions and regulatory documents(41:28) Streamlining the regulatory process(43:06) Understanding FDA interactions(45:35) Building a public library of regulatory documents(48:18) Encouraging novel approaches in biotech(50:06) Addressing risk aversion in the industry(51:52) Analyzing FDA consistency and reviewer heterogeneity(01:02:15) The importance of courage in professional growth(01:06:39) Supporting young professionals and catalyzing change(01:16:14) Wrap

    1h 18m
  5. Your support rep is also trapped in this call, with Des Traynor of Intercom

    JAN 15

    Your support rep is also trapped in this call, with Des Traynor of Intercom

    Patrick McKenzie (patio11) sits down with Intercom co-founder Des Traynor to examine customer support through the lens of Conway's Law, Goodhart's Law, and several decades of accumulated organizational scar tissue. They discuss how AI agents are democratizing white-glove service, why modern LLMs have retrained user expectations around “chatbots” very quickly, and the surprisingly liberating effect of talking to something that will never judge you for missing a loan payment.– Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/des-traynor/ –Sponsor: MongoDB Tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale? MongoDB is the database built for developers, by developers: ACID compliant, Enterprise-ready, and fluent in AI. Start building faster at mongodb.com/build – Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:29) Intercom and its evolution(00:51) Challenges in customer service systems(02:54) Scaling customer support in startups(04:53) Organizational inefficiencies and customer experience(06:53) Metrics and their impact on customer support(12:40) Human capital issues in customer support(15:53) AI's role in customer support(17:01) Future of customer support roles(20:09) Sponsor: MongoDB(20:53) Future of customer support roles (continued)(26:19) AI and customer interaction(26:55) The myth of artisanal customer support(27:45) Fin Guidance: Evolution and user behavior(29:10) Fin's impact on customer support efficiency(33:30) Expanding Fin's capabilities beyond support(42:50) AI in government and other sectors(49:20) The future of AI connectivity and integration

    54 min
  6. The magic spell that makes banks give you your money back

    JAN 8

    The magic spell that makes banks give you your money back

    Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) reads his latest Bits about Money essay explaining why he “loves Regulation E more than any rational person does.” He explains how Reg E created a privately-administered legal system processing over 100 million complaints annually—dwarfing the formal U.S. court system—and why banks are now trying to avoid these obligations for Zelle's nine figure fraud problem.– Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/the-magic-spell-reg-e/ – Sponsors: MongoDB & FramerTired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale? MongoDB is the database built for developers, by developers: ACID compliant, Enterprise-ready, and fluent in AI. Start building faster at mongodb.com/build Building and maintaining marketing websites shouldn’t slow down your engineers. Framer gives design and marketing teams an all-in-one platform to ship landing pages, microsites, or full site redesigns instantly—without engineering bottlenecks. Get 30% off Framer Pro at framer.com/complexsystems. – Links: Bits about Money,  One Regulation E, Two Very Different RegimesFull version of "Doesn't Matter, That's Reg E": https://suno.com/song/173bbd67-92f7-4868-930f-efeca4b373c0– Timestamps: (00:00) Introduction(02:46) These newfangled computers might steal our money(12:45) The contractual liability waterfall in card payments(20:35) Sponsors: MongoDB and Framer(22:23) The contractual liability waterfall in card payments (continued)(23:47) Enter Zelle(25:46) Zelle is an enormous fraud target(32:23) Banks may attempt to extend the Zelle precedent(35:02) Reg E encompasses almost every technology which exists and many which don't yet

    39 min
  7. 2025 in review, with Sammy Cottrell

    JAN 3

    2025 in review, with Sammy Cottrell

    Our annual year-in-review episode covers some recurring themes from 2025 and some behind-the-curtains discussion of running a podcast. Patrick McKenzie (patio11) sits down with producer Sammy Cottrell to discuss the most popular episodes of the year,  the impact of AI coding tools, the challenges of video podcasting, Sammy's role as a "fixer" finding guests, and much more.– Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/2025-in-review-with-sammy-cottrell/ – Sponsor: Framer is a design and publishing platform that collapses the toolchain between wireframes and production-ready websites. Design, iterate, and publish in one workspace. Start free at framer.com/design with code COMPLEXSYSTEMS for a free month of Framer Pro. – Timestamps: (00:00) Introduction (01:38) Launching video podcasts this year (02:52) AI ethics and risk discussions (04:29) Supporting LessWrong and LightHaven (07:24) Adventures in AI-assisted hobbies (12:38) Most popular episodes of the year (19:45) Sponsor: Framer (20:52) Popular episodes (continued) (29:06) Setting up a podcast studio at Lighthaven (32:31) Internal company podcasts (38:03) Year in review and investigative journalism (43:02) Creating Isekai (49:13) Wrap

    50 min
  8. Gift cards and the fraud supply chain

    12/26/2025

    Gift cards and the fraud supply chain

    For this week's holiday-inspired Complex Systems, Patrick reads his essay from Bits about Money on the gift card paradox: a legitimate payments rail, yet also a primary vector for fraud that leaves victims without recourse.– Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/gift-cards-and-the-fraud-supply-chain/ –Sponsors: Givewell & Framer  Support proven charities that deliver measurable results and learn how to maximize your charitable impact with GiveWell. Go to givewell.org, pick “Podcast” and enter Complex Systems at checkout. Framer is a design and publishing platform that collapses the toolchain between wireframes and production-ready websites. Design, iterate, and publish in one workspace. Start free at framer.com/design with code COMPLEXSYSTEMS for a free month of Framer Pro.– Links: Bits about Money, Gift cards accountability sink https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/gift-card-accountability-sink/Global China Puise, Moving Bricks https://globalchinapulse.net/moving-bricks-money-laundering-practices-in-the-online-scam-industry/ –Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(04:02) Most businesses do not run their own gift card programs(06:40) Sponsors: Givewell and Framer(09:00) Most businesses do not run their own gift card programs (part 2)(10:27) Gift cards are not regulated like other electronic payments instruments(12:07) Why do we choose this difference in regulation?

    16 min
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We live in a world where our civilization and daily lives depend upon institutions, infrastructure, and technological substrates that are _complicated_ but not _unknowable_. Join Patrick McKenzie (patio11) as he discusses how decisions, technology, culture, and incentives shape our finance, technology, government, and more, with the people who built (and build) those Complex Systems.

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