Curiosity That Matters Nadim Choucair

In Episode 7 of Curiosity That Matters, host Nadim Choucair engages with Sir Geoff Mulgan, a prominent author, thinker, and advocate for collective intelligence, social innovation, and public policy.
Geoff shares insights from his multifaceted career spanning roles in the UK government and academia, reflecting on lessons learned from his political activism to his leadership at Nesta, the UK's innovation foundation.
The conversation delves into Geoff’s latest book, Another World Is Possible, exploring the concept of collective imagination and its critical role in envisioning positive societal changes amidst challenges like climate change, technological advancement, and political inertia.
Geoff’s stories range from his early days mobilizing musicians against Thatcher’s policies to modern efforts in reimagining future governance structures and societal support systems like mental health and climate action.
This episode offers an in-depth conversation on the importance of collective imagination and innovation in addressing societal challenges, drawing on his vast experience in government, academia, and social innovation.

More readings & content by Geoff:
https://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/mesh-organisational-archicture-theoryhttps://www.geoffmulgan.com/post/imaginationhttps://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/the-art-of-imagination/
Geoff's interview with Boundaryless & New Statesment article
https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/geoff-mulgan/https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2015/10/trotsky-blair-and-new-politicsAbout Geoff:
https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/76510

In this episode I speak with Zahra Davidson, the outgoing CEO of Huddlecraft, about peer learning, collective imagination, and letting go. Zahra left her post as CEO at the end of March 2024

Zahra explains how Huddlecraft facilitates huddles - small peer learning groups united by a shared curiosity. She discusses the importance of crafting a personal learning question, embracing emergence and giving up control, and making learning tangible.
She reflects on stepping back from leading Huddlecraft after 7 years and shares her curiosity around enjoying life amidst challenge. She describes Huddlecraft's work around collective imagination, and talks about the role of writing in making sense of her curiosity and processing ideas. As she prepares to leave her CEO role, she looks ahead to having more space and an open mind about what is possible next, following her curiosities with less attachment to specific outcomes.

Learn more about Zahra's journey through this substack:
https://zahradavidson.substack.com/

Check this post by Huddlecraft about Zahra's last day:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/huddlecraft_after-7-years-of-building-huddlecraft-from-activity-7181245879440297987-mPMo?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

“Agile stability in the context of the entrepreneurial state” explores the role of the state in innovation and the economy.
UCL Professor & IIPP Deputy Director Rainer Kattel, explains why innovation needs bureaucracy, and why the initial nimbleness and speed required to innovate needs a certain structure that provides stability for scaling innovations. 
Kattel introduces the idea of “agile stability” – governments need stability for long-term functions but also agility to respond to new challenges. He provides examples like digital agencies that start small and experimental but later become institutionalized. Kattel argues we need to consciously design public organizations for innovation. He emphasizes that both capabilities and capacities matter – skills and leadership, but also infrastructure and resources. The discussion covers how to build these capabilities, the role of missions in focusing innovation efforts with specific examples.
Overall, the podcast makes the case that realizing the promise of an “entrepreneurial state” relies on building dynamic and learning-oriented public organizations.
Some other resources for you to learn more about How to Make an Entrepreneurial State: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29aosKq90mA
For more on Mission-Oriented Innovation & UCL IIPP's work
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/publications/2019/dec/missions-beginners-guidehttps://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/research/mission-oriented-innovationFor links to previous episodes mentioned:
CTM3: Creative Bureaucracy with Charles Landry CTM1: Expansive Thinking with Christian BasonHow to buy the book:
https://yalebooks.co.uk/book/9780300227277/how-to-make-an-entrepreneurial-state/

Our 4th episode features Indy Johar, founding director of Zero Zero and Dark Matter Labs, discussing the need for a “boring revolution” to transform the underlying systems and values that are driving our current crises.
Indy argues we need to move beyond an extractive, ownership-based system to one based on shared value creation and recognizing our interconnectedness.
Key themes include reimagining profit as a proof of value rather than extraction, investing in societal assets like collective intelligence, reinventing bureaucracy for the digital age, and designing new civic economies that are closer to where value is generated. Indy also discusses the invisible violence embedded in current systems, the need for a “great peace” and mutually assured thriving, decentralizing organizing for compound learning, the organizations of the future, and giving language to emergent realities many are sensing, 

Key TakeawaysWe need a “boring revolution” to transform the deep codes, values and systems underlying today’s crises
Must move beyond ownership, dominion and separation to embracing interconnectedness
Profit should show value created, not just extracted; must invest in shared goods
Reinvent bureaucracy and governance for complexity of 21st century
Design new civic economies and organize for collective & relational intelligence
Our system causes invisible violence; need a “great peace”
Written and spoken language not sufficient to describe world we need, yet shapes and gives meaning to what many sense is happening 

Below are links to articles, podcasts and other references I mention and I consulted in preparation for this episode:

- https://www.linkedin.com/posts/amitpaul-changemaker_accounting-revolution-bureaucracy-activity-7068911355528933377-ms8I
- https://futureofgood.co/mutually-assured-thriving-indy-johar-on-the-future-of-caring-for-one-another/
-https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7065052478186102784   ...  continue at https://youtu.be/IrJVjrPsPus?t=2734
- https://www.thedeepdivepod.com/135
- https://boundaryless.io/podcast/dark-matter-labs/
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvmgf-8bVCo — Indy @ Creative Bureaucracy Festival
- https://www.samrye.xyz/on-relational-infrastructure/
- https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/dm-note-8-on-art-and-imagination-infrastructure-8b3cee1d32c6
- https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/innovation-needs-a-boring-revolution-741f884aab5f
- https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/how-do-democracies-innovate-in-a-complex-world-8f26342d164b
- https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/dmls-manual-of-us-d41b1c235869
- https://creativebureaucracy.org/discover/videos/the-boring-revolution-remaking-bureaucracy-for-this-century/
- https://www.ft.com/content/b1604232-bfcd-49a5-99eb-9ac540d22748
- https://www.futurebuild.co.uk/guest/indy-johar-co-founder-project-00-dark-matter-labs-senior-innovation-associate-young-foundation/
- https://forthewild.world/listen/the-edges-in-the-middle-bayo-and-indy
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhueZVPI0hU

Charles Landry is a renowned urbanist and author, and founder of the Berlin-based Creative Bureaucracy Festival

Join us in this re-published episode to learn more  his concept of "creative bureaucracy" and the role of curiosity and imagination in public administration. Landry explains that creative bureaucracy is about fostering a culture within public organizations that is open to new ideas and solutions. He argues that many public servants are naturally creative and curious, but rigid hierarchies and risk-averse cultures often stifle this. Landry emphasizes the importance of cultivating imagination, as this allows people to envision alternative futures. He advocates for public servants to adopt an entrepreneurial mindset of experimentation and collaboration both within and outside of government.

Overall, Landry makes the case that embracing creativity and curiosity results in more adaptive, human-centered public institutions capable of tackling complex issues. He views this as vital for shaping a better future.

EP2: NURTURE CAPITALwith Huria Obgamichael & Joshua Haynes from MasawaEpisode two is all about mental wellness with a particular focus on founder mental health and the role of capital in promoting mental wellbeing. Some notes for you:Huria, Joshua and myself all went to The Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy at Tufts University. Check out the school’s programs here: https://fletcher.tufts.edu/
Joshua is founding partner, and Huria partner, at impact fund MASAWA. Masawa means. Masawa invests in European startups catalyzing mental health and wellness
- To learn more about Masawa, check their website: https://masawa.fund/
- to learn more about Nurture Capital, read this: https://masawa.fund/nurture-capital-thought-starter/ 
- Around 20:00 - we mention the Hexframe approach of Masawa, which is part of their Nurture Capital thought starters.
Other relevant mentions:
We mention the book Enterprise Design Patterns by Wolfgang Goebl, Milan Guenther, Bard Papegaaij from the Intersection Group, and Annika KlyverIn late 2022, I signed up for the School of System Change’s 33days systemic reflections - an invitation to start 2023 with 33 days of reflection guided by one question / prompt each day that the school shared. Thanks again for the Louise, Anna and Sean from the School for allowing me to use this. Stay tuned for version two probably coming late 2023, for a reflective start to 2024!There’s a shout out to a common connection between us - hello Gerjet & Natascha from Accelerate Health: https://acceleratehealth.de/Here’s a link to the Impact VC playbook that includes players from of course Masawa, but also Ananda Ventures, Partech, Atomico, Northzone, norrsken, Balderton, Bethnal Green Ventures and othersRead more about the Danish Design Center’s Imagine if we project on mental health for youthFor those interested, Techstars's toolkit includes founder mental health: https://toolkit.techstars.com/entrepreneurship-mental-health, and they talk about it in this podcast: https://www.techstars.com/blog/podcasts/mental-health-for-entrepreneurs