In this episode of CXO Bytes, host Sanjay Podder speaks with Marc Zegveld, Managing Director of ICT at TNO, about the competitive value of green IT. Drawing on the recent Green IT Value Case, real-world case studies, and research, they explore how sustainability initiatives can enhance business performance—from cost savings and supply chain clarity to talent attraction and regulatory preparedness. Marc emphasizes that green IT is not just a climate imperative but a strategic differentiator, requiring top-down leadership, grassroots innovation, and effective change management. Together, they discuss how businesses can embed sustainability across operations to thrive in a tech-driven, low-carbon future. Learn more about our people: Sanjay Podder: LinkedInMarc Zegveld: LinkedIn | Website Find out more about the GSF: The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation Newsletter Resources: The Green IT Value Case | TNO [05:57]Awesome Green Software | GSF [23:26]Software Carbon Intensity (SCI) Specification | GSF [23:39] If you enjoyed this episode then please either: Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Sanjay Podder: Hello and welcome to CXO Bytes, a podcast brought to you by the Green Software Foundation and dedicated to supporting chiefs of information, technology, sustainability, and AI as they aim to shape a sustainable future through green software. We will uncover the strategies and a big green move that's helped drive results for business and for the planet. I am your host, Sanjay Podder. Marc Zegveld: Hi, Sanjay. Thanks for inviting me on this, on this podcast. I'm really happy to join. I think it's very important and relevant topic what we discussed. My background is, I'm now a two year Managing Director of the Unit Strategy, Policy, ICT at TNO. We are an independent research organization based out of the Netherlands. But we work internationally. We do that for both business to business as well as business to government, both in industry as well as in, for defense. My background before that, I've been working 15 years at IBM. And mainly as a European services leader for the industrial sector. And before that I've been teaching innovation, high tech at the TU Delft, at my own consulting firm. And I used, I was a columnist for the leading financial newspaper in the Netherlands. Now I'm an engineer by background, but also, I got my PhD in business strategy economics. I'm intrigued by competitiveness and what triggers competitiveness. That's, one. And just to elaborate on that a bit, and then we go to the second, is, so competitive is not something which comes easy. You need to stand out, you need to invest, you need to, build. It's based on, most of the time, hard work, technology, but also reputation. It's a lot of elements which you need to bring to the table to gain and sustain sustainability. And I'm pretty convinced that from the green IT movement, this is competitive, by heart. And creating competitiveness by heart. As it's, you're able to combine a reduction of cost if you organize it well. It can bring you more clarity in your complex supply chain. It gives you a better insight in decision making from an investments perspective, but also from a Marceting reputational side it can enhance your position. But only if you're able to combine all these different threats into one specific aspect of competitiveness. And I think that's where I'm intrigued, and that's why, we did this study together with Accenture, and picked out some relevant cases and draw some conclusions. But that's one. There's another step I'm intrigued by, is the following, we hear, we read and hear a lot about, let's say the doomsday clock or whatever. About that we have a small earth that we have a lot of carbon emissions, et cetera. And if you're an optimist, if you're a pessimist, I perfectly, I don't care. But there's something we can do just better, improve, compared on what we do without losing quality of life, quality of on what we do for planet as a whole. Now finding that whole combining with competitiveness, I think that's the strengths which should unique companies, which should unique all other organizations around the globe to see what we can do together. Sanjay Podder: Wonderful. And, you know, one thing that really strikes me here is you started with competitive space, right? Because this is a space where people primarily drive the conversation with concerns around climate change, the greenhouse gas emissions. What you did talk about in the second part, you know, we are, the planetary boundaries. We are a small planet. But typically in my own experience, I have seen that, given the challenging business environment that we are seeing today, the leading this conversation with greenhouse gas emissions is not as appealing to business as competitiveness that you mentioned. Right. And cost efficiencies, operational efficiencies and competitiveness. Many businesses do not see that part today. They can still relate to cost efficiencies, which is equally attractive, improving their bottom line. But competitiveness, you know, is very rare for people thinking that green software, green IT, green cloud, green AI is a competitive differentiator. Right. And I'm glad you started the conversation with competitiveness, which I think it'll be great if you can throw a bit more spotlight, because that to me is the most critical point in this whole conversation for businesses to realize that this is not some altruistic thing they're doing for the planet, but this is for them to survive, to thrive and be ahead of the rest of the competition. So Marc would love to hear a little bit more, and I'm sure you put a lot of it in your Green IT value case. Right. So, you know how have you articulated that? Marc Zegveld: No, it's a fair point, Sanjay. And, absolutely, competitive first. And I'm not sure how you see it, but for me, it's all about change. And change starts with the action. So, internally within companies, you need to fire up you need to ensure that indeed there is action and then competitiveness or the underlaying parameters in boosting competitiveness is key to start that change. And once more companies, more organizations, understand and work that way, I'm convinced, without being altruistic, but I'm convinced that indeed, a greener IT, a greener situation, a healthier planet can be can be started. But if we start that discussion from a planet perspective, we can agree or disagree, but we more have a debate than that what we have in action. And I'm more an action-oriented person. And I think that's what companies, and that's why I like this conversation, as well, Sanjay is, with you, with your team. You're more action-oriented. And I think that's where the trigger and that's where it really starts. So competitiveness, for my end, is a multifaceted aspect. It's about not only attracting capital and of course within, we have more and more sustainable capital providers, it's also about attracting talent, the new kids from school, I would say, attracting them, gen Z and others, it's more difficult to attract them and to keep them. And once you, your part, when you tell your story about green IT, about the relevance of green IT that it's indeed not only strong for their environment, but definitely it's strong for boosting the company. It's strong for their career. It's a relevant aspect on being competitive as well. It is a competitiveness indeed for the full supply chain backward looking, but also forward looking. Most of the supply chains are very complex. If indeed we're able to detangle and create some more clarity also from a sustainability perspective, from a green perspective. In most of the cases we've seen, we're able to reduce cost. We were able to optimize. So there's several aspects, and I think instead of going to the root of only cost cutting, here, competitiveness is a multifaceted aspect, and especially if we're able to create that interplay between these different facets, then we really can build strong, stronger, more competitive organizations, more competitive companies. Sanjay Podder: Wonderful. And, you know, I think you touched upon various aspects like the talent getting attracted to companies which embrace sustainability. Right? And you spoke about the supply chain. I think another area where, though it might not be an imperative today, it might turn out to be of an important area for business is regulations coming up in this space. Today, the regulations are fairly voluntary. Even the EU AI Act when it comes to, you know, environmental impact, you know, it's much more stronger on the social aspects of responsible AI and stuff like that. I think that would be another area for business to be ready for the future when regulations are much more stringent around these areas, at least in certain part of the geographies, right? So that would be important. So, Marc, one of the thing that I wanted to discuss more is examples of businesses that are turning this into a competitive differentiator. I remember in some of my early conversations in the field of sustainable AI, when we would talk about techniques like quantization, pruning of models, creating smaller models fit for purpose. All that seemed great from a theory point standpoint, theoretical standpoint, right? And, but the moment DeepSeek did all of this and suddenly came out with, you know, large language models much more cost effective. You know, they built, they trained the model and a fraction of cost compared to other large language models, and we could see that they used the green principles and they have converted it into a competitive differentiator, creating something very unique. You know, and suddenly people started thinking, "do we really need so mu
