65 episodes

Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder. 

The Disorder podcast teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, NATO Foundation Senior Analyst, and Alexandra Hall Hall, a former British Ambassador, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues. 

At the conclusion of each episode, they will be proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’.

Twitter: @DisorderShow 
Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com  

Disorder Goalhanger & Global Enduring Disorder Ltd

    • News
    • 3.8 • 73 Ratings

Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder. 

The Disorder podcast teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, NATO Foundation Senior Analyst, and Alexandra Hall Hall, a former British Ambassador, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues. 

At the conclusion of each episode, they will be proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’.

Twitter: @DisorderShow 
Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com  

    Ep55. NATO Summit 2024 – Did it help Order the Disorder?

    Ep55. NATO Summit 2024 – Did it help Order the Disorder?

    A week ago today, NATO wrapped up its 75th anniversary summit. At the event genuine  support of Ukraine was on full display. Discussion of how to Trump-proof NATO dominated the agenda, partnerships with NATO’s southern periphery were side stepped and the war in Gaza was largely ignored. All of this was choreographed to project unity and paper over disagreements within the alliance. But do such optics actually help to Order the Disorder? 
     
    To find out we’re joined by Jane Kinninmont – who was in Washington at the Summit. She tells Jason about the discussions on the margins of the summit – mostly about Joe Biden – and the glaring omission from the formal agenda: the Israel-Gaza conflict. She also shares a live-show discussion among her; Élie Tenenbaum, the Director of IFRI’s Security Studies Centre in Paris, just back from a mission to Kyiv; and Dr. Isabelle Werenfels, a senior fellow at the German think tank SWP. The trio opine on their impressions of the summit, the key announcements on Ukraine (which were quite minimal), the role of Spain in raising the Gaza issue, and what a Trump presidency might mean for NATO. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    “Trump-proofing NATO” has been one of the buzzwords around this summit. The BBC covers the issue here: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gr90jnxjvo  
     
    The NATO summit’s official communique is here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_227678.htm  
     
    Jane, Isabelle and Élie were all members of an independent experts group appointed by the NATO Secretary-General to contribute ideas on NATO’s approach to the Middle East and Africa, some of which were picked up in the summit communique. The expert group report can be found here: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/5/pdf/240507-NATO-South-Report.pdf  
     
    Jane and Isabelle wrote a version of the report here as a policy brief for SWP: https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2024C25/  
     
    Elie’s most recent study on the military situation in Ukraine can be found here: https://www.ifri.org/en/publications/politique-etrangere/articles-de-politique-etrangere/military-stakes-war-ukraine  
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    • 35 min
    Ep54. If you come for the King, best not miss

    Ep54. If you come for the King, best not miss

    In bye gone moons, Trump inadvertently quoted Ralf Waldo Emerson, “When you strike at the King, you must kill him.” Yet on Saturday July 13, Donald Trump survived an attempt to gun him down at a campaign rally in Pennsylvania. Will this be one of those pivotal moments which go down in history - like the assassination of Lincoln; of Archduke Franz Ferdinand; JFK, RFK, or MLK? Or will it be like with Gavrilo Princip’s predecessors, assassins are only remembered if they succeed. Others tried to assassinate the Archduke and History won't remember them because they missed.  
     
    Alex and Jason predict that Thomas Matthew Crooks will not be a household name for long and the impact he will have on history is likely very much the opposite of what he might have intended. Alex shares how she felt while hearing the news at a baseball tournament, while Jason shares his experience hearing the news from Saltsjoboden at the Swedish Open of backgammon. Professional gamblers noted to Jason that after the assassination attempt that the betting markets moved instantly in favour of Trump, even more so than after Biden’s poor debate performance. 
     
    As always Jason and Alex try to order the disorder by discussing the messianic narratives around Trump and how his supporters always viewed him as a perennial victim/martyr. Now having survived this attempt on his life, it seems likely that his saintliness and blessedness in their eyes will morph into a kind of hagiography. We conclude by discussing how the Democrats could use this moment to try to rally the country together around a new kind of unifying vision. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    JD Vance selected as Trump’s running mate: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-announces-ohio-senator-j-d-vance-his-2024-running-mate  
     
    Many high profile figures believe that surviving the assassination attempt makes Trump’s re-election a done deal: https://www.euronews.com/culture/2024/07/15/the-election-is-over-celebrities-react-to-donald-trump-assassination-attempt  
     
    Trump says he will announce VP pick: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/15/us/trump-rnc-news-biden  
     
    For More on the Republican convention:  
    As Alex mentioned: Judge dismisses classified documents case against Trump: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/15/us/trump-documents-case-dismissed 
     
    Alistair and Rory on how the Assassination attempt will affect the US election and how Rory survived an Assassination attempt against him in Iraq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0OwsWUbmOw  
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    • 33 min
    Ep53. NATOs 75th Summit – Where the real Ordering happens?

    Ep53. NATOs 75th Summit – Where the real Ordering happens?

    NATO is the longest lasting and most successful military alliance in human history. Today NATOs 75th Summit in Washington, DC comes to a close. What can NATO’s past tell us about  its probably future?  
     
    To commemorate this symbolic occasion, Jason is joined by Peter Apps. He is the author of ‘Deterring Armageddon: A Biography of NATO’, a global defence columnist for Reuters, and a British Army reservist. He has reported from more than 20 countries over two decades, despite being paralyzed in a frontline car crash in Sri Lanka in 2006.  
     
    Jason and Peter discuss: Lord Ismay’s dictum; how has the Ukraine war affected the alliance?; how important are personalities to the alliance and how it works?; and how can NATO’s history, institutional biography, and legacy of diplomatic flexibility shed some light on how it might respond to the unprecedented challenges around it — from the rise of the far right in National Rally in France, the AfD in Germany, to the spectre of Trump — and the challenges posed to NATO by Putin, Xi, climate change, AI, and misinformation. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    Peter’s book Deterring Armageddon: A Biography of NATO: the "astonishingly fine history" of the world's most successful military alliance https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deterring-Armageddon-Biography-astonishingly-successful/dp/103540575X  
     
    Listen to Disorder Ep6. NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? with Kori Shacke, Timothy Garton Ash, Jamie Shea and Charles Kupchan: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964  
     
    About the NATO Defense College Foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/about-us 
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    • 40 min
    Ep52. Suburban Lib Dem Mums and Centrist Starmer Dads take back control

    Ep52. Suburban Lib Dem Mums and Centrist Starmer Dads take back control

    ‘The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of Brexit, upon them hath the light shined.’ (Isaiah 9, v.2 with only one word changed) In retrospect, the melodies and lyrics of Handel’s Messiah appear quite appropriate for this most non-Messianic of Messiahs, the man of our moment, Sir Keir.  Therefore, despite Alex and Jason’s fear about the large Reform vote and their trepidation about Biden’s remaining in the US Presidential race, they still make time to ‘Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice Greatly’ because British democracy does work. It operates via a system of checks and balances -- where every action causes a counter reaction, and every Sunak Rwanda scheme, Truss tanking of the economy, and Boris-y lie elicits a shift in public opinion. 
     
    Despite the positive news of Britian’s Independence from Neo-Populists, the Enduring Disorder still prevails in many corners of these resplendent Isles. Jason tells of his undercover ethnographic field trip to Clacton-on-Sea, where he discovers that Reform are actually just the UK branch of the MAGA movement. Jason and Alex debate if: 1) Britain is in a phase of post-populism or proto-populism; 2) if the wave has crested or if Britain is just at an earlier stage in development than France or the USA; 3) What we can extrapolate about how the British electorate’s protest votes over Gaza or immigration bode for the American election; and 4) the power of the anti-system and anti-incumbency pressures and how these two factors might be the big difference btw the British and American elections -- as in the US both anti-system and anti-incumbency tendencies are working for the Republicans and against the Dems, whereas in the July 4 UK election the anti-system vote worked against the Tories and for Reform while the anti-incumbency vote worked for the Tories and against Labour. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack to get a recent clip of Jason on Al Jazeera English talking about Sir Keir’s approach to Gaza: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    Oh Baby What a Night, the Two Matts on the Rise of the Lib Dems and Starmer’s flawless mastery of the first past the post system: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-two-matts/id1236139906?i=1000661232273 
      
    Read The Lammy Doctrine https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2024/06/david-lammy-doctrine-interview-jason-cowley?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email  
     
    Listen to an potted biography of Sir Keir’s personal, professional, and intellectual journey: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/origin-story/id1624704966?i=1000660203835  
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    • 59 min
    Ep51. UK Elections: A lone bright spot for global Order?

    Ep51. UK Elections: A lone bright spot for global Order?

    Later this week as they go to the polls, UK voters will likely celebrate their very own ‘Independence from Neo-Populists Day’. With Labour widely expected to secure a large majority… could this be a chance for Order within an increasingly Disordered West? If he cruises to victory, as expected, how will Sir Keir manage his relations with the EU and US? 

    In this episode, Jason Pack and Alex Hall Hall discuss the rather uninspiring election campaign so far. They analyse why Labour’s play-it-safe ‘Gareth Southgate approach’ is dissuading some voters; what a Starmer premiership means for the UK’s relationship with the EU (could some stealth mega-ordering be on the horizon?); and how David Lammy and Kier would almost certainly reignite an increasingly ‘special relationship’ with a Biden/Democrat-led US, or how they would struggle to navigate a ‘specially-challenged-relationship’ with a Trump-led White House. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    Read In Picture-Postcard English Villages, a Seismic Political Shift Is Underway (on Jeremy Hunt) from the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/world/europe/uk-election-jeremy-hunt.html 
     
    Sir Keir Starmer must win. Only his government can shape the future we want to see: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/ng-interactive/2024/jun/28/the-guardian-view-on-the-general-election-2024-a-labour-victory-would-be-a-reason-for-hope  
     
    And when will we get the results: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/21/general-election-timetable-when-what-time-results/  
     
    Read The Lammy Doctrine https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2024/06/david-lammy-doctrine-interview-jason-cowley?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email  
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    • 44 min
    Ep50. The Emperor has no clothes - Biden’s disorderly debate performance

    Ep50. The Emperor has no clothes - Biden’s disorderly debate performance

    After months of the grandees in the Democratic party telling the public that Biden’s age was nothing to worry about: the Global Orderer-in Chief has been shown to have no clothes and his adult diapers were not changed prior to his appearing before an audience of tens of millions. As Mega-Orderers know, Jason is prone to melodrama, but in this instance the Sky Really Is Falling!  June 27, 2024 may go down there as one of those dates like Dec 7, 1941 and June 23, 2016: Dates that will live on in infamy.  
     
    Biden’s debate performance truly has massive implications for global order: it will embolden Pyongyang, Beijing, Tehran, and Moscow; it creates a dangerous global vacuum with an absence of orderers for many months until the dust settles from the US election; and it leaves the democratic party with an urgent choice how to choreography the process of substituting Biden out for a younger candidate.  
     
    To counterbalance Jason’s doom and gloom, he is joined by the ever up beat Glaswegian Jane Kinninmont who presents the view on Biden from the European capitals. 
     
    Twitter: @DisorderShow 
     
    Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  
     
    Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/  
     
    Producer: George McDonagh 
    Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
     
    Show Notes Links 
     
    As for what needs to happen now, here are what centrist Democrats  commentators are saying: Tom Friedman: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html  
     
    Frank Bruni: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/presidential-debate-trump-biden-2024.html  
     
    Scores of cogent podcasts have emerged dissecting the optics of the debate and what the Dems have to do now. Here are a couple that we have found particularly useful: 
     
    Ezra Klein: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-presidential-debate.html 
     
    The Rest is Politics US: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/advantage-trump-will-the-democrats-move-to-replace/id1743030473?i=1000660512902  
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    • 33 min

Customer Reviews

3.8 out of 5
73 Ratings

73 Ratings

JanMasaryk ,

1st: it’s “listen here bae, you come at the king, you best not miss”

2nd: Theodore Roosevelt got shot and lost the election to Wilson
3rd: in terms of messaging and the “out of touch, DC liberal Atlanticist” stereotype, the “I was in the Swedish archipelago at a backgammon tournament” is a little too on the nose. To channel Fareed Zakaria after 9/11: “this is why they (in the Red hats) hate us.”
Trump said “fight” for his and his supporters vision of the United States domestically (Project 2025) and our willingness to support our ideals abroad (Ukraine). The question we face is are we willing to fight back?
Sincerely,
Rust belt voter from Pennsylvania who believes in the post WWII liberal international order

LaborerMike ,

Great guest interviews

They have really excellent guests and conduct pretty good interviews. My only complaint is the guy has some really insane militaristic views. More than once I have thought his policy recommendations would end in ww3 or a nuclear holocaust. Maybe that’s how center left technocrats thinks about strategy and policy?🤷🏻‍♂️ Probably why he’s running a podcast for nato

Sfbillz ,

Good content but that voice

I’m familiar with the joke “he has a face for radio”. This guy has a “voice for mime”.

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