Double Take is a podcast about the art and science of making good decision, with hosts Matt Geleta and Anshul Jain. In this episode, Matt and Anshul take a dive into a philosophical rabbit hole with the question "What should I want to want?" PODCAST INFO: - Spotify: https://spoti.fi/43veDQv- Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3WZ6iSy- Google Podcasts: https://bit.ly/43ysWDZ- YouTube: https://bit.ly/double-take-youtube- RSS: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/1540937/s/58013.rssCONNECT WITH US:- Follow, share with friends, and leave a 5-star review- Make a one-off donation: https://bit.ly/donate-to-paradigm- Matt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewgeleta/; https://twitter.com/MatthewGeleta- Anshul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anshuljain32/ ; https://twitter.com/anshuljain__ Transcript [00:00:04] Matt: Welcome to Double Take, where we explore the art and science of making good decisions. I'm Matt. [00:00:09] Anshul: And I'm Anshul. Have you heard of David Goggins, Matt? [00:00:12] Matt: I have heard of David Goggins. Uh, actually my very first serious running injury actually happened shortly after reading his book. Because after reading it I felt so motivated to just go for a ridiculously long run and ramped up my volume much faster than I should have. So, yes, I've heard of David Goggins. [00:00:29] Anshul: Yeah, I'm reading his book at the moment. Um, it's pretty crazy, right? Like, he basically had a tough childhood. He's in his 20s, I think. He's working at a pest control, as a pest control person at McDonald's. So he'd, you know, go there at 3am at night, destroy all the cockroach nests. Uh, pretty overweight, no direction. Gets home one day, sees training for the Navy SEALs on the Discovery Channel, like the, the most elite group of, uh, you know, essentially soldiers in the army, and he's like, I'm gonna go become one of them. [00:01:01] Matt: Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. It's like a switch flipped in his head and he just became an unstoppable force overnight. It's been a while since I read it, but if I recall correctly, sort of overnight he started training super hard in the gym every single day, going for insanely long runs and hikes. eating well, spending every second of his remaining time studying for the SEAL exam, and then before you know it he's submitted an application and he was, he was right there in front of the SEALs. It was just wild. [00:01:30] Anshul: Yeah, I think he, I don't think it was actually that, that straightforward. So he, he lost a ridiculous, like 20, 30 kilos, it was in pounds or something, but he lost a huge amount of weight just to make it into The first pass of the trial and then they put him through something called hell week, which is seven days of Basically non stop training. I think they get you know, something like under 10 hours of sleep during the entire week And they're doing intense physical training the whole time and he fails the first two times and on the third go his shins are so damaged, like he's got shin splints essentially, from running so much that he has to get there two hours early every morning and duct tape his legs so that he can do these, you know, 50 60 mile runs along the beach all day. [00:02:17] Matt: I mean, look, it's definitely impressive, I must say, but honestly, when hearing about that sort of behavior, it's really hard not to think that he's just got a screw loose in his head. And I mean, seriously, like, why would somebody want to put themselves through all of that? Um, when I think with that same level of effort and motivation, you could probably get all the things he wanted in a much easier way. I don't know. I mean, it seems like that behavior must be driven by some sort of atypical psychology to me. Um, But I guess on the other hand, I mean, he's inspired a lot of people and he's sure achieved a hell of a lot in a very short amount of time. So, uh, you know, he did completely turn his life around from what it was. So definitely at least better than the past controlled days, I would say. [00:03:02] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But, I mean, the thing I find most interesting, obviously his story is incredible and, you know, he's done some amazing things, but what I found most interesting going through the entire book is he He changed what he wanted so drastically, to some extent. And, you know, maybe you can argue this is what he always really wanted, but maybe, you know, there was some part of him that wanted achievement and success, but... The extent to which he's doing it now versus what he was doing in the past and, you know, maybe in the past he wanted to get home after work and sit down on the couch and eat pizza and now what he wants is to run ultramarathons and come first. Uh, to some extent there has been a deep changing in... His core motivations and desires and that that's what I found most fascinating about the entire book, right? Like he he talks about the actual process of rewiring himself There's a period of the book where you know he wakes up every or he'll shave his head in the mirror and he's got a ritual and he's talking to some in the mirror and part of all of that is, you know rewiring his mentality so that he He genuinely does, you know, crave the success and the, uh, I guess the challenge of everything he's doing. [00:04:18] Matt: Yeah, but part of me is a bit skeptical that it's a bit of a marketing ploy and, uh, and the whole thing is made up like, you know, there are characters out there who are completely fictional. Um, but I guess in the, in his case, he's been on enough public forums, you know, and trusted podcasts, things like that, that I think is probably quite legit. And I mean, certainly he's, he's been in, in races where you can see the results online. And so he's, he's definitely done them. Um, but. Yeah, God, it feels so extreme. I'm actually amazed that he could have changed what he wanted that drastically. I just can't get my head around that. [00:04:51] Anshul: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, I mean, sure, some parts of his story are probably exaggerated, but this idea of being able to change what you want... Most people have experienced it to some extent, right? Like, you know, when I was a kid, I hated tomatoes. At some point, I liked tomatoes. Uh, and to some extent, tomatoes, particularly for me, were a deliberate effort. Um, now, he's maybe gone and done this on a more extreme scale, but I think the, the really interesting question here then becomes, you know, if I can change what I want, like, what should I want to want? [00:05:28] Matt: Yeah, it's, uh, it's a question I think that people don't ask themselves very often at all. It's, um, yeah, it feels like you're scratching something very deep, very deep there at the core of the human condition. [00:05:40] Anshul: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like people basically spend the first 20 or so years of their life getting turned into something by accident, and then you just spend the rest of your life figuring out what that is and trying to change, you know, the tiny bits and pieces of it that you find time to. [00:05:56] Matt: Yeah, exactly, the human condition. We're born into a world not being able to control pretty much anything of what happens to us. Kind of learn a few things subconsciously, unconsciously, pick up habits from other people and then these things become part of who we are and we don't even think of them as choices. This is just, you know, Hi, I'm Matt, I like, I like tomatoes and Anshu doesn't and that's just me. That's just me. Haha. [00:06:19] Anshul: Yeah, so like, right now you like or dislike certain things. These came from genetics, culture, upbringing, friends you met in primary school, whatever it might be. Uh, and, you know, part of that is fairly innate, like the vast majority of humans are born liking sweet and fatty foods, you know, when you're a kid, you might enjoy learning to play a sport, uh, when you're older, you might get addicted to work or something even worse. And in some sense, they're all things which you want or like, and you're, you're drawn towards them. [00:06:52] Matt: Mmm. Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, words like wants and likes and desires, I think they are a little bit complex to unpack. And I think we could go fairly deep discussing them, but I think you can pretty much safely say on the surface level at least that most people want to do things that broadly maximize some, some form of positive feelings versus negative ones. Like you're attracted to things that make you feel good, you're repelled from things that make you feel bad, at least over some time period with a broad definition of, you know, what, what feels good and what feels bad. So I guess it might be a little bit contentious. to really dig into that too much and I don't think we need to go down that, that rabbit hole. Um, but generally speaking, I think that's right. Attracted to things that make you feel good, repelled from things that make you feel bad. And most of the time, those things have not really been thought through ever. [00:07:41] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, in the, in the happiness bucket, you know, it could be everything from... joy to laughter to love, uh, broadly things which you enjoy, um, and in the, in the negative, it could be fear and, uh, disgust and maybe something else. Uh, if I, if I put my mathematician hat on, you could probably imagine some kind of happiness graph over your life where, you know, at each moment you're seeing, you know, the total net Sum of your positive minus negative emotions. Um, you know, however you want to define that. And you would, you can map out that graph over time, over your entire life, and the area under that graph, or that curve, would be, uh, essentially like the total sum area of your, your net happiness in your life. Uh, and so in some sense, maybe what you're doing is trying to maximize... The area of that, or the surface area under that curve, over your entire
