How did it make sense?

Gareth Lock
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'How did it make sense?' explores the local rationality of those involved in doing what they did. Each podcast lasts about 45 mins and aims to follow a similar format. Initially, we will look at the 'first story' which is normally scant in details and triggers an emotional response, and then we will look at the 'second story' that looks at the goal conflicts, the ambiguities, the assumptions, the tensions, and the trade-offs that led to those involved doing what they did. This context-rich story is the one that learning opportunities come from, not focusing on the counterfactuals that often arise from 'first stories'. The goal is to encourage you to look deeper at the socio-technical system presented by the guests and how we can make improvements by abstracting from the multiple domains discussed in the podcast to the our own domains.

  1. Ep 28: Nathalie Lasselin - “You were nearly hit by a tug. They didn’t see us.”

    JAN 23

    Ep 28: Nathalie Lasselin - “You were nearly hit by a tug. They didn’t see us.”

    On today’s episode of How did it make sense I am joined by Nathalie Lasselin, a filmmaker, technical diver, explorer, and someone who dives where most people wouldn’t even go looking. Nathalie’s story starts with an ambitious expedition called Urban Water Odyssey, a 44-mile dive along the St. Lawrence River with a large support team. The plan was meticulous, the team trained, and everything seemed under control, until the dive ran late, the river got busy, and night fell. When Nat surfaced, she was struck by a boat, and only then did the team realise a tugboat was approaching. They pushed her out of the way, but the near-miss revealed a gap in the operation: no dedicated lookout, broken communication, and the kind of task overload that makes obvious risks invisible. What makes this episode powerful is not just the incident, but the deeper learning behind it. Nat breaks down how the expedition’s delays created cascading failures, how people’s perception of risk changes under pressure, and how the team culture their focus, trust, and ability to respond saved her life. This conversation is a reminder that you can’t design risk out of real-world operations; you can only build resilience and a team that can fail safely. Find Nathalie here: Website : www.aquanath.com Non profit organisation : www.aquasubterra.org Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NathLasselinofficialpage/ Linkedin: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nathalie-lasselin-72419721/en Instagram: @aquanathstudios Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/aquanath Chapters0:00 Start of the story: Urban Water Odyssey 1:20 The dive runs late and conditions worsen 2:40 Nat surfaces and is hit by a boat 4:00 The tugboat appears: “They didn’t see us” 5:20 What went wrong: no lookout & communication failure 7:00 The role of team culture in the rescue 8:40 The bigger lesson: resilience and failing safely 10:00 Recommended reads and mindset resources Connect with Gareth: Human in the System Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?"

    50 min
  2. Ep 27. Steve Smith - “How could you have tied the wrong anchor knot?”

    JAN 16

    Ep 27. Steve Smith - “How could you have tied the wrong anchor knot?”

    Today on How Did It Make Sense? I’m joined by Steve Smith, a kindred spirit and expert in outdoor education and safety. Steve has spent decades in the outdoor education and safety world, worked across wilderness programs, Outward Bound, and the Student Conservation Association, helping people navigate the tricky balance between risk and learning. He’s also the author of Safety Science for Outdoor and Experiential Education, where he unpacks how we can learn from near misses, mistakes, and everyday operational decisions. In this episode, Steve shares a story that had me holding my breath: an experienced climbing instructor almost leaned back over a 100-foot cliff on a slipknot instead of a proper anchor. The near-miss was caught just in time, but, the story is far more than about one careless moment. We unpack what created the situation, how organisational decisions, over-engineered safety measures, and human nature all collide in high-stakes environments. Resources mentioned / Connect with Steve Safety Science Book on Kindle and Amazon. His Beneficial Risk book is available here. Online classes associated with the chapters of the book LinkedIN and website Connect with Gareth: Human in the System Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    54 min
  3. Ep 26. Sabine Fürst - "She's just a midwife"

    07/18/2025

    Ep 26. Sabine Fürst - "She's just a midwife"

    In this episode, I’m joined by Sabine, a former midwife and flight attendant turned consultant, as we explore the hidden human factors at play in healthcare, specifically in the labour ward. Sabine’s research shines a light on the power dynamics between midwives and obstetricians, how professional identity shapes behaviour, and why normality and safety are not the same thing. We discuss how discourse, accountability and silos influence teamwork, often leaving women disempowered despite the best intentions of professionals. Whether you work in healthcare, safety or corporate teams, there is so much to take from this conversation about human factors and how culture is co-created. Sabine shares the personal story behind the phrase ‘she’s just a midwife’, how it ignited her research, and why language like this matters. We also talk about the creative ways professionals navigate control and power, why team education still comes too late, and how cross-disciplinary conversations can help break silos.  Connect with Sabine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabine-f%C3%BCrst-1487891a8/ Resources Mentioned The Lancet Editorial on Empowering Women During ChildbirthRead it here WHO: Labour Care Guide – The Next Generation PartographRead the publication Connect with Gareth: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    42 min
  4. Ep 25. Justin Featherstone - Now the rope is cut, I am truly alone in this crevasse. What happens now?

    05/02/2025

    Ep 25. Justin Featherstone - Now the rope is cut, I am truly alone in this crevasse. What happens now?

    In this powerful episode of How Did It Make Sense?, I speak with Justin Featherstone MC leadership consultant, former Army officer, and mountaineer. Justin shares an extraordinary account of survival after being trapped in a crevasse on Mont Blanc, this conversation dives deep into what happens when the unthinkable occurs and how leadership, trust, and human connection make all the difference. Justin reflects on the life-or-death moment his climbing rope was severed, leaving him suspended upside down in the ice, and how a memory from combat (where kindness and accountability intersected) gave him the will to survive. We explore how true leadership is built not through hierarchy, but through vulnerability, courage, and compassionate decision-making. This episode is essential listening for those in the health and safety space, leadership development, and anyone curious about how people truly behave under pressure.   Books/resources Nancy Kline – A time to think - Time to think: listening to ignite the mind.  Cassell Illustrated. Professor Michael West – The Kings Fund Leadership - The King’s Fund (2019, October 25) Rosalinda Torres – What it takes to be a leader TED Talk Connect with Justin on LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/justin-featherstone-mc-frgs-frai-9b958b6 Connect with Gareth: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    46 min
  5. Ep 24. Marcus Dimbleby - You hit the aircraft crash alarm! Why did you do that?!

    04/11/2025

    Ep 24. Marcus Dimbleby - You hit the aircraft crash alarm! Why did you do that?!

    What happens when someone tests your emergency plan—and no one’s ready? In this episode of How Did It Make Sense?, I speak with Marcus Dimbleby, ex-RAF Wing Commander and now partner at Effective Direction, about the moment he walked into an ops room and triggered the crash alarm on purpose. We unpack how critical thinking, red teaming, and stress testing systems reveal the hidden flaws in safety procedures, leadership cultures, and team behaviours. It’s a story that moves from chaos to commendation, with lessons every business leader and risk manager should hear. Connect with Marcus: Marcus Dimbleby on LinkedIn effectivedirection.com Resources Recommended: Big Things Fast by Jose Corella and Marcus Dimbleby Gary Klein – recognition-primed decision making and naturalistic decision making.  Daniel Kahneman – Thinking, Fast and Slow Connect with Gareth: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    44 min
  6. Ep 23. Chris Davies - 'Blaming up' - what's the difference to blaming down?

    04/04/2025

    Ep 23. Chris Davies - 'Blaming up' - what's the difference to blaming down?

    In this episode of How Did It Make Sense? I sit down with Chris Davies, co-founder of Volaria Performance, to dig deeper into the idea of blaming up versus blaming down. Chris shares a story from his military aviation days – a high-pressure scenario involving rapid descents, rotor overspeeds, and a well-intended but misguided fine imposed by leadership. It’s a classic example of where human error meets systemic misunderstanding. We unpack the layers of this case: What happens when leaders focus on punishment instead of understanding? Why do we so often recognise the frontline worker’s rationality but fail to apply the same empathy upwards? And what are the risks when oversights at the top are dismissed as incompetence rather than pressure-driven decision-making? We also explore how this kind of thinking shows up across industries – from healthcare to aviation, defence to energy. It’s not just about individuals; it’s about the systems they operate in, and the stories those systems tell. This episode is a call to move beyond blame – in any direction – and towards curiosity, context, and connection. It’s for leaders, operators, and anyone trying to make sense of complexity in real-world systems. Connect with Chris; LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-davies-7633b62a/ Website - https://www.volaria-performance.com/ Resources Recommended: When the Dust Settles by Lucy Easthope  Alchemy by Rory Sutherland  Connect with Gareth Here: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    42 min
  7. Ep 22. Aaron Potash - Why did nobody help with the struggling diving instructor?

    03/28/2025

    Ep 22. Aaron Potash - Why did nobody help with the struggling diving instructor?

    In this episode of How Did It Make Sense?, I speak with Aaron Potash about a tragic diving incident in Monterey. A struggling student, a distressed instructor, and a beach full of bystanders—why did no one step in? This story raises important questions about how we recognise and respond to distress in high-risk environments. We explore the bystander effect, training gaps, and Immersion Pulmonary Edema (IPE), a little-known but potentially fatal condition that may have played a role. Despite its increasing recognition in the diving and medical communities, awareness and early detection remain limited. Aaron shares how this experience reshaped his approach to diver readiness and risk management, emphasizing the need for better training, clearer distress signals, and stronger safety cultures. Connect with Aaron: www.originaloaktowndivers.com  @originaloaktowndivers  Resources Recommended: Jessie Singers – There are no accidents You can also listen to Jessie's episode on How Did It Make Sense here  Connect with Gareth Here: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    40 min
  8. Ep 21. Natia Ellis & Liam Duggan - Did the armed police officer have to take that action?

    03/21/2025

    Ep 21. Natia Ellis & Liam Duggan - Did the armed police officer have to take that action?

    In today’s episode of How Did It Make Sense? I sit down with two fellow Lund University graduates, Liam Duggan and Natia Ellis, to dig into the realities of police use of force and the critical role of second-story analysis. We start by dissecting a high-stakes policing scenario—a mental health crisis escalating to a fatal police shooting. The media-driven first story often simplifies these events, focusing on blame and hindsight bias. But what happens when we step back and consider the second story? Liam and Natia take us through their research, exploring the hidden systemic pressures shaping officer decisions—from policy constraints and training gaps to budget cuts and crisis response limitations. Connect with Natia and Liam: Natia Ellis | LinkedIn Liam D. | LinkedIn Resources Recommended Friendly Fire by Scott Snook Normal Accidents by Charles Perrow Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke Legacy by James Kerr Connect with Gareth Here: Human in the System  Transforming teams. Unlocking human potential. Using principles from Human Factors (HF), High-Reliability Organisations (HRO), and Human and Organisational Performance (HOP), we develop and deliver highly immersive and impactful programmes using the High-Velocity Learning LAB (HVLL) concept. We give you the know-how, the tools and the support to make results stick and empower your people to achieve the extraordinary. We help you answer the question "How do we uncover those hidden stories in our organisation?" Contact us here

    48 min
See All (28)

About

'How did it make sense?' explores the local rationality of those involved in doing what they did. Each podcast lasts about 45 mins and aims to follow a similar format. Initially, we will look at the 'first story' which is normally scant in details and triggers an emotional response, and then we will look at the 'second story' that looks at the goal conflicts, the ambiguities, the assumptions, the tensions, and the trade-offs that led to those involved doing what they did. This context-rich story is the one that learning opportunities come from, not focusing on the counterfactuals that often arise from 'first stories'. The goal is to encourage you to look deeper at the socio-technical system presented by the guests and how we can make improvements by abstracting from the multiple domains discussed in the podcast to the our own domains.

Information

  • Creator
    Gareth Lock
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    28
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2026 Gareth Lock
  • Show Website
    How did it make sense?

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