How Did They Get There

Penn Media Group

"For a decade, How Did They Get There has been a space where artists and filmmakers reflect on their work, their relationships, and their search for meaning. Hosted by Dr. Penn (Jon Penn Junejo, DNP-BC), a Columbia-trained psychiatry provider, the show brings together creativity and mental health in unfiltered, existential conversation."

  1. Jul 27

    Ep. 70 – Katie McQuerrey on De Gaulle: Résistance, Inside Llewyn Davis and Jessica Chastain

    Editor Katie McQuerrey has collaborated with Joel and Ethan Coen on several significant films over the past 25 years, including Intolerable Cruelty, No Country for Old Men, A Serious Man, True Grit, and Inside Llewyn Davis. Their partnership began during the Coens' transition from film to digital – a period that also saw major changes to their editing process and suite. Katie’s work transcends a unique range of genres and styles. Her credits include Matthew Barney's six-hour opera film River of Fundament; the road films Driveways and Wanderland; Roger Waters' concert documentaries Roger Waters: The Wall (2014) and Us + Them (2019); X, the short film directed by Josh Brolin; Naked Singularity, starring John Boyega; and Asphalt City (formerly Black Flies), starring Sean Penn, Tye Sheridan, and Michael Pitt. Asphalt City marked her third collaboration with director Jean-Stéphane Sauvaire, following Punk and A Prayer Before Dawn. In television, Katie has also edited episodes of Human Giant, the cult classic The Andy Milonakis Show, and George & Tammy. Her most recent project, De Gaulle: Résistance, premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in May 2026. Directed by Antonin Baudry and starring Simon Abkarian as Charles de Gaulle, the film chronicles de Gaulle's emergence as one of the defining military and political figures of World War II France. Adapted by Baudry and Bérénice Vila from Julian Jackson's biography A Certain Idea of France: The Life of Charles de Gaulle, Résistance is the first installment of an ambitious two-part epic, preceding De Gaulle: Liberté, which opened theatrically across France on June 26, 2026. In our conversation, we discussed Katie's multicultural background; the profound impact of seeing Apocalypse Now at a young age; her path to becoming one of Hollywood's most sought-after editors and collaborating with Joel and Ethan Coen; and her experience editing De Gaulle through an international post-production process spanning France and the United States. Opening Credits: Pierce Murphy - Persimmon I CC BY; Pierce Murphy - Among The Stars I CC BY. Closing Credits: Tommaso Croce - Electric Clementine I CC BY-NC.

    Ep. 70 – Katie McQuerrey on De Gaulle: Résistance, Inside Llewyn Davis and Jessica Chastain
  2. Jul 21

    Ep. 69 – John Stewart Muller on Fling, Mira Sorvino and Trent Reznor

    John Stewart Muller directs films that explore themes of commitment, abandonment, unrequited love, obsession, and emotional emptiness through psychologically complex characters. The son of the noted creative and graphic designer of the same name, John moved to Los Angeles following his upbringing in Kansas City to pursue writing, directing, and producing after studying at Loyola Marymount University. He co-wrote his debut feature, Fling, with his partner, Laura Boersma. Starring Brandon Routh, Courtney Ford, and Steve Sandvoss, the film explores the expectations and fragility of commitment when a couple's experiment with polyamory is disrupted by the return of an ex-partner. Fling marked Routh's first feature following Superman Returns and premiered at the 2008 Newport Beach Film Festival before receiving a theatrical release. Nick Urata of DeVotchKa contributed original music to the film, which complemented its ethereal themes of longing, uncertainty, and unrequited love. He followed with Indiscretion, a noir thriller set against the backdrop of Louisiana state politics, starring Mira Sorvino, Cary Elwes, and Christopher Backus. Continuing Muller's and Boersma's exploration of infidelity and desire, the film examines mental and emotional conflict, greed, and the intersection of art and ambition. Shot on location in New Orleans, the film features Sorvino as a psychiatrist whose life becomes increasingly entangled with politics and personal obsession. Throughout their careers, John and Laura have collaborated on numerous additional projects, including commercial work for clients such as Buick, MasterCard, and Mattel, as well as several acclaimed short films. In our conversation, we discussed why John loves living in Los Angeles; his tendency to collaborate with real-life couples; recent A24 films that have resonated with him; the influence of Ingmar Bergman on his work; and his next feature. Opening Credits: Loyalty Freak Music - Harsh Lovel I CC0; Tommaso Croce - Shapeshift I CC BY-NC. Closing Credits: Pierce Murphy - Caldera Blue I CC BY.

    Ep. 69 – John Stewart Muller on Fling, Mira Sorvino and Trent Reznor
  3. Jul 13

    Ep. 68 – Basic Vocab on Power Book III: Raising Kanan, The General Dynamic and Thundercat

    Hip hop group Basic Vocab's trajectory shifted rapidly when their signature track, "Come Get With It," was discovered by HBO and featured during the closing credits of Season 5 of Entourage. In doing so, they joined artists such as Saigon, Gang Starr, Alice Smith, Outkast, Radiohead, and Jay-Z, whose music was also featured during the series' end credits. The track appeared on their debut album, The General Dynamic, featuring JL Sorell, MG, and Square, with production from Tony Galvin, whose work with artists including T.I., Mystikal, and Trick Daddy brought a classically trained sensibility to the group's sound. They followed with A Better Way (2010), a more energy-oriented record infused with b-boy influences. The album included tracks such as "Prescription," "Tears," "Keep It Simple"—later featured on HBO's Crashing—and "Just Dance," which appeared in Hulu's Random Tropical Paradise. Their next releases, Type 3 (2022) and Straight Kemistry (2022), reflected on the post-pandemic landscape, exploring subjects including politics, social media, and healthcare. In 2025, the group released their latest single, "Sign of the Times," and they continue to collaborate together. In our conversation, featuring JL and Square, we discussed the South Beach "conscious rap" scene; the artists who influenced them and those to whom they are most often compared; how their lives changed following Entourage; recent collaborations with Sadat X; composing for film and television; and maintaining originality, creativity, and consistency over time. Opening Credits: Genx Beats - 07 Already (Lofi Mix) I CC BY 3.0 I Black Ant - Dark Slide I CC BY-NC-SA. Closing Credits: Jangwa _ Dilating Times - Flutter I CC BY.

    Ep. 68 – Basic Vocab on Power Book III: Raising Kanan, The General Dynamic and Thundercat
  4. May 22

    Ep. 67 - Jared Isaac on An Autumn Summer, Spike Lee and Joe Swanberg

    Filmmaker Jared Isaac’s debut feature, An Autumn Summer, is currently in theatrical release in select cities ahead of its digital release on June 9 on Apple TV and all major VOD platforms, including Vudu and Fandango at Home. Recently featured in Deadline, the coming-of-age romance stars Sing Street and Wayne actor Mark McKenna alongside Shrinking breakout Lukita Maxwell, who also stars in A24’s upcoming Backrooms. The film follows Kevin (McKenna) and Cody (Maxwell), a young couple spending their final summer before college in a magical Northern Michigan lake town, chasing the feeling of an endless summer in the eve of adulthood, and was cinematographer Brandon Somerhalder’s debut narrative feature film, whose work on The Queen of Basketball won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Short in 2022, and whose 2026 documentary Come See Me in the Good Light received an Academy Award nomination for Best Documentary Feature. Their collaboration captures the wistfulness and emotional uncertainty of transition in calm, serene fashion. Semi-autobiographical in nature, the story draws from Isaac’s own close friendships and formative summers spent in Northern Michigan. The film premiered on the festival circuit to strong audience and critical response, including a Best Director win for Isaac at the 2025 Phoenix Film Festival, before its Chicago premiere at the legendary Music Box Theatre on April 23, featuring a post-screening Q&A moderated by acclaimed filmmaker Joe Swanberg. The venue held special significance for the Chicago native, who grew up watching films there. Jared recently adapted Zane Grey’s Riders of the Purple Sage for Samuel Goldwyn Films and is currently developing narrative projects on the horizon. In our conversation, we discussed Jared’s journey of independently bringing his first feature to life, the value of casting and how that can enable intuitive chemistry between actors, crafting the film’s dreamlike montage sequences, lessons learned from working on Spike Lee’s Chi-Raq, as an actor, and a disco feature he has written — including the actor he believes is perfect for the lead role. Opening Credits: Ketsa - My Deal I CC BY 4.0; Black Ant - 5 Piece I CC BY 3.0. Closing Credits: Podington Bear - No Solace I CC BY-NC 3.0.

    Ep. 67 - Jared Isaac on An Autumn Summer, Spike Lee and Joe Swanberg
  5. Apr 12

    Ep. 66 - Laura Veirs on Temple Songs, Flying into Darkness and Sufjan Stevens

    Laura Veirs crafts musical portraits shaped by daily life, family, and the broader dynamics she encounters through international touring, the record business, and motherhood. Her 15th studio album, Temple Songs, arrives August 14 and features the single “Flying Into Darkness,” which she describes as joyous, “but also dark.” Veirs’ musical path has been marked by constant evolution: while studying at Carleton College, she formed the all-female group Rair Kx, and her 1999 self-titled debut leaned heavily into punk. By the time she recorded The Triumphs and Travails of Orphan Mae (2001)—one of her personal favorites of her catalogue—she was exploring bluegrass and country influences, later incorporating more melancholic, blues-inflected tones while maintaining her folk roots, as heard in tracks like “Tom Skookum Road.” In her next album, Carbon Glacier (2004), she introduced more electronic textures, notably on the percussive opener “The Cloud Room.” Year of Meteors (2005) leaned into a rock-infused folk sound, while Saltbreakers (2007) pushed toward a rawer, more experimental edge, with its track “Drink Deep” appearing in the soundtrack to the film Hello I Must Be Going (2012), starring Melanie Lynskey. Her 2010 album July Flame—named after a peach she encountered at a farmers’ market—features one of multiple collaborations with Jim James of My Morning Jacket. She followed this with Tumble Bee (2011), a children’s folk album, and Warp & Weft (2013), recorded during her pregnancy. Over the next couple of years, Laura collaborated with artists like Sufjan Stevens —contributing backing vocals to “Should Have Known Better” on his album Carrie & Lowell (2015) —and Neko Case, with whom she formed the supergroup (and released their eponymous album), case/lang/veirs (2016), alongside k.d. lang. Her later work reflects both personal and cultural shifts: The Lookout (2018) channels anxiety surrounding the 2016 U.S. presidential election, while subsequent albums—including My Echo (2020), released at the onset of the pandemic, Found Light (2022), and Phone Orphans (2023)—demonstrate her fluid, impactful genre-blending talent and ability. Within the music world, she has also hosted the podcast Midnight Lightning, which features interviews with musicians who communicate their approach towards balancing parenthood and artistry, with guests including legendary bassist Carol Kaye and Rosanna Arquette. In our conversation, we discussed her move to the Pacific Northwest in the early 2000s, her evolving musical influences, maintaining a self-care routine, balancing life as an artist and parent, and her upcoming tour across Europe and North America. Opening Credits: Pierce Murphy - The Shadow Of The Bluff I CC BY 4.0; The Top One Percent - Cavalier I CC BY 4.0. Closing Credits: Podington Bear - Surface Tension I CC BY-NC 3.0.

    Ep. 66 - Laura Veirs on Temple Songs, Flying into Darkness and Sufjan Stevens
  6. Mar 22

    Ep. 64 - Alexis Lloyd on Group: The Schopenhauer Effect, 30 Beats and Thomas Sadoski

    Filmmaker Alexis Lloyd has made a distinctive impact on contemporary cinema with Group: The Schopenhauer Effect, currently in its theatrical run at The Quad Cinema in Greenwich Village, NYC. The film draws deeply from his upbringing immersed in psychiatry and psychoanalysis, blending that foundation with his passion for storytelling. Conceived as a prequel to his acclaimed, eponymous YouTube web series, the project offers a poignant exploration of the conflicts, epiphanies, and catharses that emerge within group therapy. Released five years after the first season, the film reunites much of the original cast while introducing a pivotal new character portrayed by Thomas Sadoski, reuniting Lloyd with one of his frequent collaborators. Sadoski plays a documentarian named Alexis, caught between artistic ambition and financial survival, who must earn the group’s trust while seeking permission to use their sessions professionally—an inherently delicate and potentially disruptive undertaking. Lloyd’s last feature, 30 Beats, is an ensemble exploration of sexual compulsivity and the longing for connection, featuring Sadoski alongside Lee Pace, Justin Kirk, Paz de la Huerta, and Jennifer Tilly. Earlier in his career, he directed several short films, including Indiscretion (2001) and Le 10ème Jour (2003). In addition to his work as a filmmaker, Lloyd had a prolific career as Managing Director at Pathé, where he oversaw distribution on a range of influential films, including Basquiat, Swingers, Pi, The Virgin Suicides, Memento, The Blair Witch Project, Bound, Austin Powers, The Fifth Element, and The Spanish Prisoner. In our conversation, we explore the origins of his interest in mental health storytelling, the response to his latest feature, the challenges of filming during COVID-19, and why casting a real psychoanalyst was essential to creating an authentic group dynamic. Opening Credits: Ketsa - Goes Red I CC BY 4.0; Pierce Murphy - Chania I CC BY 4.0. Closing Credits: Pierce Murphy - Baby, Write I CC BY 4.0.

    Ep. 64 - Alexis Lloyd on Group: The Schopenhauer Effect, 30 Beats and Thomas Sadoski
  7. 09/21/2025

    Ep. 63 - Tom Epperson on Baby Hawk, A Family Thing and The Gift

    Trying to pigeonhole Tom Epperson into a single category is impossible—and that’s part of what makes his career so compelling. His path as a novelist and screenwriter has been anything but linear, weaving through genres and mediums with equal parts grit and curiosity. He knew early on that writing would be his life’s work, and meeting lifelong friend and collaborator Billy Bob Thornton during boyhood only strengthened that conviction, leading to a six-decade partnership that produced tremendously profound films like One False Move, The Gift, and A Family Thing. Their work has earned significant critical acclaim, including Independent Spirit Award and Saturn Award nominations, and recognition from the Writers Guild of America. As a novelist, Tom’s range is just as impressive, spanning noir, historical fiction, and adventure with titles such as Sailor, Make Believe, Roberto to the Dark Tower Came, the Edgar Award nominated The Kind One, and most recently Baby Hawk—available wherever books are sold. In our conversation, we dived into the origins of his new book, the dangers of group-think, the challenging nature of AI, his first move to Los Angeles, and what it takes to remain grounded in a chaotic world. Opening Credits: Arana - Jazz at Mladost Club I CC BY-NC-SA 3.0; Komiku - Old artefact to destroy the patriarchy hidden somewhere I CC0 1.0. Closing Credits: Jalikebba Kuyateh and the Toubabs - Griot and the Family I CC BY-NC-SA 3.0.

    Ep. 63 - Tom Epperson on Baby Hawk, A Family Thing and The Gift

Ratings & Reviews

3.7
out of 5
6 Ratings

About

"For a decade, How Did They Get There has been a space where artists and filmmakers reflect on their work, their relationships, and their search for meaning. Hosted by Dr. Penn (Jon Penn Junejo, DNP-BC), a Columbia-trained psychiatry provider, the show brings together creativity and mental health in unfiltered, existential conversation."