I want to prime you with a question asked by today’s guest during our conversation: “What does it mean for you to be fully expressed as a human being in whatever shape that takes?” So much of our life and work is spent in opposition to what we actually want, and yet the possibilities are truly endless. Sarah Bush is a mixed media artist who explores “the relationship between materials and ideas” with fiber, metal, handmade books, and the written word. In our conversation, we dive deep into imagination, the creative process, and the importance of struggle in our work. We also talk about healing through our work, making work that is true versus good, how risk changes as we get older, the role of mystery in her work, the threads that weave through it all, how to commit to your vision, and Sarah’s obsession with scale. Show Links Sarah Bush Artworks What’s Wrong with Hard? – The Pink Teacup Paul Simon David Byrne Robert Plant Devin Townsend A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness by Michael Pollan Transcript Chris Martin: It’s always fun when you meet people for the first time and they just put you in a place of not ease, but just calm and peace and excitement for the conversation. And I think you just bring an energy to the Zoom room of just that. So welcome to the show. Sarah Bush: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. CM: Awesome. Well, I love asking this question of everyone I talk with, and it’s, what are you endlessly curious about? SB: Well, one of the reasons that I make art is that it feeds my endless curiosity. And it’s one of the places in the world where I can’t be bored. And also partly because I set the terms. So that really interests me. The creative process and how it works, I find that really interesting, and I do find exploring how to use my imagination as almost like a spiritual practice, a lifelong endeavor. And so all the things I love to do most, make art, garden, spiritual work, it’s all, to me, those will keep me busy till I’m dead. CM: What a great way to describe it, ’cause I feel like we look at work as this thing that we do drudgingly until we die, as opposed to how you just phrased it as like, “This is gonna keep me busy until I’m dead.” And there’s almost a freedom to that, as opposed to the drudgery nature of how we often look at it. SB: That’s right, and I think that’s like owning your work. And understandably, a lot of people can’t own their work, when it’s externally imposed upon you it can feel a lot like drudgery. But then I think we can also treat anything really challenging as drudgery. And one of my other big mantras is—I wrote a blog post called What’s Wrong with Hard?—and it’s one of my more popularly read ones. I’m glad it’s popular because I think we live in a culture obsessed with natural talent and things that come easily, and when something doesn’t, people think, “Oh, that’s not my thing.” And I think, oh, how strange. That anything worth doing is usually hard, and that if you’re just okay with it being hard, then it kinda opens up a lot. CM: It’s so interesting that you said that too, because one of the areas that I have a lot of conversation around is friction, and that needed component of work that, yes, it is hard, it is challenging. That’s how you develop the abilities, the skills to continually do your work. And yet I think we do live in a society that wants things to make it easier for us, for whatever reason. I don’t know why. SB: I know. I think some of it is because we have this thing about natural talent and natural abilities that other cultures actually don’t have so strongly. And I also think what’s so interesting about that is that those aspects of our work, like the things that we do find hard, they’re almost like a spiritual practice too. I think basically what’s hard for me is that I’m facing the thing in myself, like my anxiety, I don’t know how to do this. What I’m bumping up against is often internal about the process that I find where all the friction is really, and that, like I always thought as an artist, I try to, when I’m talking to other artists about pricing, like I was a designer for a long time, and we all had to pr- I kind of enjoy it, but it took, you’re really bumping up against your feelings of self-worth. All those issues come up, and so it’s like an opportunity really to heal that stuff, through your work, through this thing you’re giving your time to, and treating it like this little lens onto what’s going on inside. CM: That’s interesting. What was that process to go from the world of design and wrestling against the self-worth and charging and pricing to then that point of expansion to where you enter the world of art and you’re like, “Okay, this is what I’m doing now,” and it sounds like there’s a lot of freedom that showed up for you. SB: Yes and no. I also think design, it tends to be more concrete. You have these concrete parameters and you’re working with them, and there is something soothing about that. And then you’re still facing things, like if I’m making a product, I’ve designed so much jewelry and so many personal accessories and you’re in a meeting and discussing the price, it’s much more nuts and bolts. When you have a painting that you made and the price feels much more about, like you’re pricing your soul or something. And then you have to kind of still address that and think about how to hold that lightly. Sometimes from my design background, I’ll think, “Well, with that price, I had to make things that were wholesale.” So now, if a gallery has my art, what’s the price? If someone comes into my studio, what’s the price? So it’s still varied. I just think that answering to yourself with your work, regardless of whether you sell it or not, that’s where that freedom lies that you’re talking about, where you make something that resonates for yourself. And you are trying to make something true more than you’re trying to make something good. And that is to me where you get more committed to your process. CM: Oh, that’s really interesting. True versus good. SB: I think about that all the time. Because when you go to art school, you really learn how to make something good or you try to make something good. And in a funny way, you have to unlearn a lot of that if you wanna make something true, and it will push you to make something that maybe won’t be good at the end, and it’s true. And then you maybe that expands your capacity. And then also it helps me more understand when people are new to making work, they’re very driven to make something good, and that is where all the angst is because when you’re new at something, it’s harder to make something good. And then everyone talks about how you should feel so great about making something bad. I think that’s not easy to like making something bad, but I also think kind of honoring it is important, honoring it as part of your process and as part of your journey. And I’ve made work, I’ve felt like, “Oh, that fell on its sword for me. And now I can make the thing correctly now.” CM: I feel like we don’t let time speak enough in our lives in terms of how long it takes to be able to make something good. I think about when I was younger just starting out and, yeah, you’re right, I felt that in order to be worthy of what I was doing, I had to make something good immediately. SB: Yes. I think there is a great pressure there, and I also think social media kind of creates that illusion. You see a lot of things that seem to happen in a one-minute video, and that part, you know, is hard. And also, don’t you find that as you get older, there’s less risk for me to make something bad because I’ve made a lot of things I consider good. And so, yeah, that one didn’t work out. It’s not such a verdict about my ability as it is when you’re starting and you don’t have things that you’re proud of yet. And I think that stuff’s really legitimate and bringing more awareness to what’s happening. So really, the stakes are lower for me to screw up at this point. And so I can tell you to screw up and enjoy it, but I think it’s a way of finding that mercy with yourself when you’re having the courage to make something and try to express yourself. CM: What comes to mind as you’re talking about this too is my wife and I watch a lot of competitive cooking shows, and inevitably someone always says, “You know, if I win this, it’ll prove to my parents, prove to my family members that all this time spent was worth it.” And it’s just like, “Uh, okay that’s kinda sad,” you know? SB: Yes, and darn it. That’s the other weird part on a social level that people maybe aren’t that comfortable with you committing to something that doesn’t show quick success, that doesn’t make you money. One of the things I used to always say is that it’s such a reflection on our culture. When you make something, one of the biggest compliments that someone will give is, “Wow that’s so good you could sell it.” That’s the framework that the culture has offered to determine something’s value. And so that’s why it’s also so important that you can sell it. And why so many of us artists have this angst about that, or these cooking show people who are trying to prove that they could get that great chef’s job or whatever it is. CM: Value is one of those conversations too that is very challenging, whether you’re a artist or a designer. And I think sometimes I feel like it’s not the right conversation to have. I feel it’s one of those conversations that we let us distract from answering the question, what do you want to do with your life? Because personally, I spent 20 years tr
