Music Therapy Conversations

Luke Annesley
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The podcast of the British Association for Music Therapy. Luke Annesley talks to music therapists and other people about music therapy and related topics.

  1. Aug 25

    Ep 112 Naviella Dowds

    Luke spoke to Naviella Dowds about her journey to music therapy. This includes some discussion of her challenging experiences during training, which she initally discussed in a public forum at the most recent BAMT conference in Leicester, in 2024, as part of a keynote. Naviella Dowds is an HCPC-registered music therapist, PhD researcher at the Guildhall School of Music & Drama, and Founder and CEO of Lyrical Minds, a pioneering organisation specialising in rap, Hip-Hop and DJ-informed creative practice within music therapy and wellbeing. Naviella's journey into this work is deeply personal. During her own cancer recovery, she discovered rap and songwriting as powerful tools for processing emotions, finding her voice and supporting her mental wellbeing. This experience, alongside her academic and professional journey, led her to explore how rap, Hip-Hop and DJ culture can be meaningfully and ethically integrated into music therapy. Her PhD research, "Finding Voice: Exploring Rap-Informed Creative Practice as a Culturally Responsive Approach Within Music Therapy and Wellbeing," explores creative expression, identity, culture and wellbeing, while questioning how the profession can become more culturally responsive and inclusive. Through Lyrical Minds, Naviella delivers training, CPD, workshops, keynote presentations and creative programmes for professionals and communities. She is also a Board Member of BAMT, where she hopes to contribute to the future development of the profession. Looking ahead, Naviella is passionate about expanding opportunities for rap and Hip-Hop-informed practice, supporting greater cultural understanding within music therapy, developing international partnerships and taking Lyrical Minds around the world through training, research and collaboration. Her ultimate goal is to help create a music therapy profession where everyone can find their voice, their culture is respected, and there is space for different ways of making, experiencing and understanding music. Links: LinkedIn post of a video of Nav's performance at age 15, in tribute to her close friends who were tragically killed. Nav's post about the tragic death of Jason Arday Lyrical Minds Website

  2. Jul 29

    Ep 111 Sally Bouwman

    In this episode, Crystal Luk-Worrall talks to Sally Bouwman. This is the first time that a senior member of staff from a school has been on the podcast, so this episode will be of special interest to any music therapists working in schools.  Sally is an assistant head and SENCO with over 30 years' experience as a teacher working in primary and secondary settings. She has always had an interest in children who may find the classroom and playground experience and school based learning challenging at times.

  3. Jun 24

    Ep 110 Ben Richardson

    In Episode 110, following a discussion on social media, Luke talks to Ben Richardson about the language around music therapy, Relational Frame Theory, commissioning, and whether music therapy is actually 'functional all the way down'. You'll be hearing more from Ben at the BAMT conference in November 2026, and no doubt in future publications, but Music Therapy Conversations got here first! Ben Richardson is a music therapist and the Therapy Lead at the National Online School, a large multi-disciplinary team of speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, creative arts therapists, and therapy assistants. His clinical and academic work focuses heavily on the intersection of music therapy and contextual behavioural science. By integrating Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and Relational Frame Theory (RFT), Ben wants to build a framework of Process-Based Music Therapy, exploring clinical musical interactions as a rich, complex form of verbal behaviour, whilst honouring the importance of the aesthetic and "felt" aspects of the work music therapists do.  Ben is particularly driven by the changing commissioning environment for education, health, and social care, and what music therapists could do to strengthen their position within it.  He will be presenting his research on this at the BAMT conference in November. References Hayes, S. C., Barnes-Holmes, D., Roche, B.  2001.  Relational Frame Theory: A Post-Skinnerian Account of Human Language and Cognition.  Springer. Pavlicevic, M.  1997.  Music Therapy in Context: Music, Meaning and Relationship.  Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Törneke, N.  2010.  Learning RFT: An Introduction to Relational Frame Theory.  New Harbinger Publications.   Links LinkedIn TMTC: The Music Therapy Charity Not referenced in the recording, but Chan et al. (2022) a good example (and open access article) of application of RFT principles to music (not music therapy): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37397135/

  4. May 28

    Ep 109 Mary-Clare Fearn

    Mary-Clare Fearn is a HCPC registered music therapist, neurologic music therapist, supervisor, trainer and consultant with many years of experience working with children, young people and adults across education, healthcare and community settings. She is recognised for her integrative and collaborative approach, combining relational, trauma-informed and neurologic frameworks to optimise therapeutic outcomes for clients and the wider systems supporting them. She is currently working with children with SEMH needs, autism, and learning disabilities, as well as providing music therapy on a paediatric hospital ward. Alongside her therapy work Mary-Clare has worked extensively with staff teams. Her work incorporates attachment-informed approaches, including the principles of PACE from Daniel Hughes' Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy.  Mary-Clare is a BAMT registered supervisor and provides supervision, consultation and reflective support for therapists and multidisciplinary professionals, with an inclusive approach at the heart of her practice.  Early in her career, Mary-Clare established the music therapy outpatient service at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital's Cheyne Child Development Service, supporting children with cerebral palsy, autism, learning disabilities and mental health needs. She has held specialist music therapy roles within SEN schools across Dorset and Somerset. For many years she has been a visiting lecturer at University of Roehampton delivering teaching, workshops and introductory training courses.  Mary-Clare has presented nationally and internationally on music therapy, neurologic music therapy, collaborative practice and attachment-informed approaches. Publications include: Fearn, M-C., Bailey, E., Mitchell, E. (2026) 'Neurologic Music TherapyⓇ with neurodiversity and autism' Presentation at University of Westminster, Neurodiversity in Action during Brain Awareness Week Fearn, M-C (2024)  'Neurologic Music TherapyⓇ with autistic clients' Paper Presentation to BAMT South West Music Therapy Fearn, M-C. & Bailey, E. (2024). International impression. [podcast] Baselines in music therapy. Available at:https://goodpods.com/podcasts/baselines-in-music-therapy-297498/emma-bailey-and-mary-clare-fearn-international-impressions-42878458 Hepper, F., Bartlett, K. and Fearn, M-C. (2021) 'Attachment theory and attachment difficulties: supporting autistic children and young people in residential school settings', Good Autism Practice , 22(2), pp. 51–58 (8).  Fearn, M-C. (2019) 'Edges, Safeguarding and Endings' Paper Presentation at Key Changes Annual Conference, Hampshire Strange, J., Fearn, M-C., & O'Connor, R., (2016) 'Music and Attuned Movement Therapy; How the Facilitator Mediates Between Client and Therapist', Collaboration and Assistance in Music Therapy Practice; Roles, Relationships, Challenges.  Ed: Strange, Odell-Miller & Richards, Jessica Kingsley Publications, , Chap 11, pp 200-226,  Fearn, M-C (2015) 'Flute, Accordion or Clarinet? Using the Characteristics of Our Instruments in Music Therapy' Ed: Oldfield, Tomlinson & Loombe, Jessica Kingsley Publications, Chap 3, pp 76-77 Fearn, M-C. & O'Connor R., (2008) 'Collaborative working at the Cheyne Day Centre, London,'  Integrated Team Working; Music Therapy as part of Transdisciplinary and Collaborative Approaches.  Ed: Twyford & Waston, Jessica Kingsley Publications, Part 1 pp -55-61  Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2005)  'Music and Attuned Movement Therapy' Paper Presentation at the World Congress on Music Therapy, Brisban, Australia, Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2004) Music and Attuned Movement Therapy'. Paper presentation at the British Society of Music Therapy, London Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2003) 'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts', BJMT, Vol 17(2) pp 67-75 Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2002) 'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts', Paper Presentation at World Congress of Music Therapy, Oxford

  5. Apr 30

    Ep 108 Sami Alanne

    Dr Sami Alanne, DMus, music therapist, training psychotherapist, psychoanalyst, is an Adjunct/Associate Professor of music therapy and a researcher at the University of the Arts Helsinki. His studies include traumas, refugeeism, mental health, psychoanalysis, and psychotherapy relating to music, culture, philosophy, and society. He is the author of the books The Theory and Practice of Psychodynamic Music Psychotherapy (Barcelona Publishers) and Music, Music Therapy and Refugees: Aspects of Trauma (Palgrave Macmillan). Dr Alanne graduated as a music therapist at the Sibelius Academy in 1999 and the Master of Philosophy in music therapy at the University of Jyväskylä in 2001. He has worked in music therapy and mental health fields for over 30 years. As a music therapist and a psychotherapist, he has worked with children, adolescents, their families, and adult clients providing individual and group therapy at his private practice and health care company Apollo Terapiapalvelut (Apollo Therapy Services) in Helsinki. Besides his clinical work, during his career Alanne has been actively teaching, supervising, doing research, project work, and media appearances relating to music therapy, psychotherapy, health care, social welfare, and mental health services. In 2010, Alanne was awarded the title of Doctor of Music at the Sibelius Academy. His published dissertation was Music Psychotherapy with Refugee Survivors of Torture. In 2011, Alanne graduated as a psychodynamic music psychotherapist at the University of Oulu, and in 2013, as a trainer psychotherapist in music psychotherapy at the University of Oulu, Faculty of Medicine. After his special advanced level training of music psychotherapy at the University of Oulu in Finland, Alanne published another monograph Musiikkipsykoterapia (2014) in Finnish that was a study of psychodynamic music therapy theory, methods, and research. Since then, Dr Alanne continued his research and teaching of music therapy and psychotherapy: He has published several peer-reviewed scientific articles and books and presented them at multiple international conferences. During 2017–2019, he was a member of specialist group and project PALOMA (Developing National Mental Health Policies for Refugees at the National Institute for Health and Welfare in Finland. In 2021, Alanne was awarded with a Title of Docent in music therapy (Adjunct/Associate Professor) indicating high level research and teaching competence at the University of the Arts Helsinki (Uniarts Helsinki), and Uniarts Helsinki`s Sibelius Academy, and CERADA (The Center for Educational Research and Academic Development in the Arts). After that he has also worked as a visiting researcher at the Uniarts Helsinki`s Research Institute. In 2022, Dr Alanne graduated as a psychoanalyst and a trainer psychotherapist at the Therapeia Institute and the University of Helsinki, Faculty of Medicine. References   Alanne, S. (2010). Music Psychotherapy with Refugee Survivors of Torture. Interpretations of Three Clinical Case Studies. Sibelius Academy, Music Education Department, Studia Musica 44. Alanne, S. (2014). Musiikkipsykoterapia. Teoria ja käytäntö. [Music Psychotherapy. Theory and Practice.] Acta Universitatis Ouluensis D Medica 1248. Alanne, S. (2023). The Theory and Practice of Psychodynamic Music Psychotherapy. Dallas, TX: Barcelona Publishers. Alanne, S. (2025). Music, Music Therapy, and Refugees: Aspects of Trauma. Cham: Palgrave Macmillan.

  6. Mar 25

    Ep 107 Anita Connell at the AMTA Conference Part 2

    This is the second instalment of Anita Connell's recorded interviews from the Australian Music Therapy Conference, following on from episode 104. Dr Grace Thompson is a registered music therapist and Associate Professor in Music Therapy at the University of Melbourne. Grace has lived experience of disability, and has worked with disabled children, young people and their families for over 20 years within the early childhood and special education sectors. As part of her PhD research, Grace developed and evaluated a collaborative approach to music therapy practice with families guided by ecological theories and family-centred philosophy. Her research continues to explore the ways music therapists can foster relationships and social connection through participating in engaging and accessible music making. Grace is past president of the Australian Music Therapy Association, author of "Goal Processes in Music Therapy Practice", and co-editor of the book "Music Therapy with Families: Therapeutic Approaches and Theoretical Perspectives". She is currently Editor of the Nordic Journal of Music Therapy. The song "Make Your Own Kind of Music" (performed by Cass Elliot, written by Barry Mann & Cynthia Weil) captures the sentiment of Grace's music therapy practice and research. Brodie Henry (she/they) is a d/Deaf Registered Music Therapist working in Special Education for many years. She embeds Key Word Sign in her clinical practice and is often called on for her skills in Auslan to support students. Brodie embeds advocacy and principles of disability justice in her daily work to ensure children are appropriately supported in their emotional, developmental, and therapeutic needs in order to thrive. Zoë Kalenderidis (she/her) is a disabled and Hard of Hearing Registered Music Therapist based in Narrm/Melbourne. Her work centres on promoting wellbeing and equitable access to music-making. She holds a Bachelor of Contemporary Music (Voice) from Southern Cross University and a Master of Music Therapy from the University of Melbourne. Since the inception of the Melbourne Youth Orchestra's Adaptive Music Bridging Program, Zoë has served as musical director of the Foundation Groups, supporting disabled children who experience significant barriers to music education. The program fosters accessible ensemble playing using adaptive or standard instruments tailored to each child's interests and needs. Zoë is interested in d/Deaf and disabled aesthetics in music, exploring how musical experiences and creative expression are shaped by diverse modes of listening, embodiment, and sensory perception. She seeks to challenge conventional notions of music-making while celebrating and valuing the artistry of disabled musicians. She is also a published author and co-author, with research that amplifies the visibility and contributions of disabled musicians and Registered Music Therapists. Rob Devlin is a Registered Music Therapist with over 18 years' experience and is also a Director of Sound Expression. He was previously Senior Music Therapist and Head of Business Development for Nordoff-Robbins Music Therapy Australia. He completed his Masters in Creative Music Therapy through Western Sydney University. He values the use of interactive, improvisational music therapy, as embodied by the Nordoff-Robbins philosophy and approach to clinical music therapy. Rob has extensive experience as a music therapist with many clinical populations, including children and adults with a wide range of disabilities, neuro-divergent children, adolescents and adults with mental health diagnoses, rehabilitation work with clients who have had strokes, acquired brain injuries and spinal cord injuries. He also has extensive experience providing music therapy in aged care settings including clients with dementia. Before coming to music therapy, Rob had many years' experience in the corporate world in various senior sales and marketing roles. He left that world behind to focus on his passion, which is using music to help others live a more fulfilled and rewarding life.

  7. Feb 26

    Ep 106 Tamar Hadar

    Tamar Hadar, PhD, is co-head of the Music Therapy Program at the School of Creative Arts Therapies, University of Haifa, where she leads the program together with Dr. Maayan Salomon-Gimmon. She completed her M.A. and PhD in Music Therapy at Bar-Ilan University. Her doctoral research - supervised by Prof. Dorit Amir - compared clinical improvisation and jazz improvisation. Tamar's first postdoctoral fellowship was at NYU under the mentorship of Prof. Kenneth Aigen, where her work centered on analyzing Nordoff and Robbins's clinical improvisations and developing a theory of time around them. Her second postdoctoral fellowship, under Dr. Tal-Chen Rabinowitch, focused on applying a sociological theory, tight-loose (T-L) in music therapy, alongside a musicological, multicultural perspective.  Tamar is a music therapist, supervisor, and lecturer, working with children and families in an early intervention unit and in private practice. She specializes in child - parent interventions, particularly in the context of trauma and displacement. Her research focuses on clinical improvisation (theory and assessment), music therapy in trauma & displacement, child-parent music therapy, and culturally sensitive music therapy. She also originated a time-model for analyzing clinical improvisations. References Benjamin, J. (2004). Beyond doer and done to: Recognition and the intersubjective third. Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 73(1), 5-46. Hadar, T. (2025). Moments of thirdness in music therapy: A qualitative meta-analysis embedded in Jessica Benjamin's intersubjectivity. Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, 17(3). Hadar, T., & Aigen, K. (2025). A Theory of Time in Music Therapy: A Model for Analyzing Nordoff–Robbins Clinical Improvisation. Journal of Music Therapy, 62(2), thaf014. Hadar, T., & Rabinowitch, T. C. (2025). Tight or Loose? Reframing Musical Relationships Between Client and Therapist in Music Therapy. Music Therapy Perspectives, 43(2), miaf018. Hadar, T. (2024). Parenting in the Face of Trauma: Music Therapy to Support Parent–Child Dyads Affected by War and Displacement. Children, 11(10), 1269. Roginsky, E., Hadar, T., Midhat-Najami, N., Saada, B., Khoury, R., & Hebi, M. (2025). Breathing war, dreaming connection: Dialogue as an ethical foundation for collaborative work of Palestinian and Jewish music therapists in Israel. Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, 17(1). Hadar, T., & Amir, D. (2018). Discovering the flute's voice: On the relation of flutist music therapists to their primary instrument. Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 27(5), 381-398.

  8. Jan 27

    Ep 105 Hugh Anderson

    Episode 105 is another interview from Crystal Luk-Worrall. In this episode, Crystal talks to music therapist Hugh Anderson. Hugh is a freelance Music Therapist and currently runs his own private practice, Thame Music Therapy, in South Oxfordshire. He trained at The Guildhall from 2014-2016 and has had a wide range of experiences working in mainstream and specialist schools and nurseries, as well as in different charity and community settings. The latter included eight years at the charity Resources for Autism in north London, where he was Head of Therapies from 2020-2023. Before training as a Music Therapist, Hugh worked for the charity Kids Company for six years, was a peripatetic piano teacher and was a songwriter and performer within a number of different bands.  Two years ago, Hugh discovered a different kind of improvisation in the form of improvised theatre and comedy, aka Improv. He is exploring the overlaps between Improv and Music Therapy and is currently collaborating with Dramatherapist Tim Goldman to set up an adult community group which combines music, movement, drama and free play to support mental health and group connection.  Hugh is a mentor on the BAMT NQMT mentoring scheme, a clinical supervisor and an active member of the BAMT Freelance and BAMT Oxfordshire network groups.  Improv Blog: https://thamemusictherapy.co.uk/improv-theatre-freeze-tag-discovery-and-saying-yes/ Working with parents in MT Blog: https://thamemusictherapy.co.uk/being-a-parent-of-a-child-in-music-therapy/

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The podcast of the British Association for Music Therapy. Luke Annesley talks to music therapists and other people about music therapy and related topics.

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