Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action. In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now. They talk about why race is still the conversation we can't skip, what the BAFTA incident with John Davidson tells us about how racist language gets embedded in the brain, and why erasing HBCUs, Black Greek organizations, and Black history doesn't just harm Black people — it harms everyone. They also get into the overlooked history of Black-Jewish solidarity in the civil rights movement, the economic consequences of Project 2025, and what resistance actually looks like in 2026 — from Delta Sigma Theta's Capitol Hill days to the Costco parking lot. This is a conversation for people who want to understand where we are, how we got here, and what to do next. 3 Key Takeaways From This Episode 1- Know your history — all of it. You can't understand where we are without knowing how race was legally constructed in this country, why HBCUs and Black Greek organizations exist, and why the Black-Jewish alliance in the civil rights movement matters. Ignorance isn't neutral — it leaves you open to misinformation. 2- A reason is not an excuse. Whether it's the BAFTA incident, racially charged policies, or everyday bias — understanding why something happened doesn't make it okay. Hold both truths: context matters, and so does impact. 3- Resistance is not optional — and it's not one thing. Vote in the 2026 primaries. Show up for your neighbors across difference. Support organizations like the ACLU and NAACP. Use your voice at work, in your community, and at the polls. What Simma and Carole do every day — having these conversations — is also resistance. TIMESTAMPS 0:00 — Introduction & welcome 2:15 — Introducing Carole Copeland Thomas: CSP speaker, leadership expert, Boston-based 5:00 — Carole congratulates Simma for keeping the podcast name 9:00 — DEI under attack: Time Magazine, equity vs. equality, and why the concepts aren't going anywhere 13:30 — "We're OGs in this field" — what diversity originally meant before it became a buzzword 15:30 — Why are we still talking about race? Race as a social construct rooted in the 1700s 18:00 — The Constitution, Article 1, Section 2: when race became law 20:00 — The BAFTA incident: John Davidson, Tourette's, the N-word, and Michael Jordan on stage 25:00 — How does a word get imprinted in the brain? Why that question matters 28:30 — Carole's personal story: growing up Black and middle class in Detroit 32:00 — Born in a Black hospital — segregation in Michigan in the 1950s 35:00 — Black excellence, Black businesses, and a community that thrived inside restrictions 38:00 — HBCUs: Carole went to Emory (a PWI); why Black colleges matter and always will 42:00 — Black Greek organizations — Delta Sigma Theta, the Divine Nine, and lifelong public service 46:00 — Black history IS American history — you can't erase one without erasing the other 49:00 — The Black-Jewish relationship: deep history, civil rights, shared struggle 53:00 — Julius Rosenwald, Rabbi Heschel, and the Jewish funding of the civil rights movement 57:00 — Stephen Miller and the contradiction of Jewish white nationalism 1:01:00 — The N-word: its history, its use within the Black community, and why context doesn't make it okay for outsiders 1:05:00 — Nazi Germany, Project 2025, DOGE, and the parallels people need to wake up to 1:10:00 — Erasing immigrants, cutting Black scholarships, defunding trades: who's going to do the work? 1:14:00 — What we must do: vote in the 2026 primaries, resist, and educate 1:17:00 — Costco stands firm on inclusion — and the people showed up 1:20:00 — White allies who gave their lives: Viola Liuzzo, Goodman and Schwerner, John Brown 1:23:00 — Carole's closing message: neighbors across difference, the world she wants to live in 1:26:00 — How to reach Carole; Simma's closing and call to action About the Guests Carole Copeland Thomas has been impacting the world in a significant way for over thirty-six years. Captivating audiences around the world since starting her business in 1987, Carole creates community as an internationally-recognized keynote speaker, thought leader, and cultural collaborator. She has spoken in nearly every state in the US and nine other countries, including England, Canada, Kenya, India, Guyana, Japan, El Salvador, South Africa, and Australia. Carole presented her signature message on "Facing Fear" at the TEDx Waltham event in Waltham, Massachusetts. The speech is available to view on the TEDx Channel on YouTube. In addition to her other business client activities, Carole served for 18 months as the Interim Vice President and Chief Diversity Officer at Curry College in Milton, Massachusetts. RESOURCES MENTIONED ● USUK Race Summit — Michael Curry's keynote available at usukrace.com ● Carole Copeland Thomas — carolcopelandthomas.com ● ACLU — aclu.org ● NAACP — naacp.org ● Delta Sigma Theta Sorority — Delta Days at the Nation's Capitol (annual legislative advocacy event) ● The US Constitution — Read and memorize the First Amendment ● BAFTA 2025 incident — John Davidson, Tourette's syndrome, and the N-word on stage ● Project 2025 — referenced throughout as the policy blueprint behind current administration actions ● Julius Rosenwald — co-founder of Sears, funded education for Black students across the South ● Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel — Jewish civil rights leader who marched alongside Dr. King ● Viola Liuzzo — white Detroit mother killed during the Selma-to-Montgomery marches, 1965 ● Andrew Goodman & Michael Schwerner — civil rights workers murdered in Mississippi, 1964 ● James Baldwin — writer and intellectual; his work on Black-Jewish history referenced Connect with Simma Lieberman Need a speaker, facilitator, or dialogue leader who helps people talk with each other—not past each other? Contact Simma: simma@simmalieberman.com Learn more and support the show: RaceConvo.com Instagram Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Tiktok Website Share the Conversation If this episode made you think, please share it with a friend or colleague. Real conversations across differences start when someone decides to listen. Please help these necessary conversations continue- Make a one-time, or monthly tax-deductible donation of $5.00 https://fundraising.fracturedatlas.org/everyday-conversations-on-race-for-everyday-people All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas. Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating Previous Episodes What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman's Story? Do We Still Need to Talk About Race? Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
