Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Michael Liebreich, Bryony Worthington
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

  1. Cleaning Up Redux: Hot Rocks in a Box — Anand Gopal

    1D AGO · BONUS

    Cleaning Up Redux: Hot Rocks in a Box — Anand Gopal

    This episode was originally broadcast in June 2024. As the world transitions away from fossil fuels, one of the biggest challenges is decarbonizing industrial processes that require consistent, reliable sources of energy to produce high-temperatures. Typically these processes run on fossil gas, but now thermal batteries offer a solution by using electricity to store renewable energy in the form of heat.  Anand Gopal, Executive Director of Policy Research at Californian think tank Energy Innovation, joins Baroness Bryony Worthington to discuss his team's research on using thermal batteries to provide heat for manufacturing. Or as he calls them, hot rocks in a box. By storing intermittent solar or wind energy as the heat of molten salts or crushed rocks, thermal batteries can deliver reliable heat on-demand.  While the tech is almost at commercial availability, there's still one big obstacle: cost. In many countries it is still much cheaper to use gas over electricity, and that makes powering up thermal batteries uneconomical. So what needs to be done to employ them at scale? And will they take the wind out of hydrogen's sails? Find out on this week's episode of Cleaning Up.  Read more:  Energy InnovationIndustrial Thermal Batteries: Decarbonizing U.S. Industry While Supporting a High-Renewables GridEnergy Innovation's report on electric vehicle leasingEnergy Innovation's report on electric vs gas carsEnergy Innovation's report on industrial heat in ChinaEnergy Innovation's report on electrification of industrial heat

    58 min
  2. ⁠Stop Worrying About Clean Power, Start Electrifying Everything | Ep238: Lord Adair Turner

    DEC 17

    ⁠Stop Worrying About Clean Power, Start Electrifying Everything | Ep238: Lord Adair Turner

    What will be the long-term impact of the US’s great leap backward on clean energy? How will the emergency of China as an electrotech giant reshape geopolitics? And what will be the defining trends and technologies of 2026? In this end-of-year episode of Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington is joined by Lord Adair Turner, Chair of the Energy Transitions Commission, for a wide-ranging, candid, and occasionally fiery conversation about where the energy transition truly stands. Looking back on a decade since the Paris Agreement and ahead to the road beyond 2025, Turner delivers a clear-eyed diagnosis: emissions and politics are heading in the wrong direction, but technologies — including solar PV, batteries, and the wider “electrotech stack” — are advancing faster than almost anyone expected. Together, Bryony and Adair unpack why electrification is emerging as the central lever for decarbonising transport, industry, and heat; how China’s clean-tech machine is reshaping global energy economics; and why abundant, ultra-cheap electricity could fundamentally change prosperity, geopolitics, and climate outcomes. They also grapple with the harder questions: affordability versus ambition, the limits of carbon pricing, the challenge of decarbonising steel, cement, aviation and shipping, and the disruptive impact of US politics on global climate cooperation. They debate whether COPs still matter, why “nearly clean” power may be smarter than chasing absolute purity, and what breakthroughs could surprise us next. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: Energy Transitions Commission: https://www.energy-transitions.org/Power Up: How Clean Energy Is Putting Fossil Fuel Demand in Doubt: https://www.energy-transitions.org/publications/power-up-fossil-fuel-demand-in-doubt/Lord Turner’s previous appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/xxTngGxpeW0 Why Is It So Hard to Clean Up Global Shipping? | Ep229: Tristan Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto

    1h 11m
  3. Honey, I Shrunk the Oil And Gas Sector | Ep237: Lord John Browne

    DEC 10

    Honey, I Shrunk the Oil And Gas Sector | Ep237: Lord John Browne

    What happens when clean energy starts to outgrow fossil fuels at scale? Is it right to call China an electrostate? And how long will we be reliant on hydrocarbons? This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Lord Browne of Madingley — former CEO of BP and one of the earliest voices inside Big Oil to publicly call for emissions reductions from fossil fuels.   Recorded in front of a live audience in London, the discussion explores how geopolitics, energy security, AI, and rising global anxiety are reshaping the path to decarbonisation. Lord Browne reflects on launching BP’s original “Beyond Petroleum” strategy, his current work investing billions through BeyondNetZero, and why the future of climate action will be driven as much by adaptation, resilience, and people as by technology itself. From the rise of China as an electrification juggernaut and the US as an AI-powered energy giant, to the tipping point where clean energy demand could finally outpace fossil fuels, this episode offers rare insight from someone who has shaped — and challenged — the global energy system from the inside. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: BeyondNetZero: https://www.generalatlantic.com/climate/Lord Browne’s previous appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/8VXQ2EGAcGMThe Pragmatic Climate Reset, Part 1: https://youtu.be/OHKGor2_BzQ

    51 min
  4. Why Does The UK Pay So Much For Cheap-To-Produce Gas? | Ep236: Seb Kennedy

    DEC 3

    Why Does The UK Pay So Much For Cheap-To-Produce Gas? | Ep236: Seb Kennedy

    What happens when a nation’s energy security rests on volatile global gas markets? Why does the UK pay market prices for some of the world’s cheapest-to-produce gas? And is now the moment to rethink decades of “leave it to the market” dogma? This week on Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington sits down with Seb Kennedy, energy journalist and founder of Energy Flux, to unpack the turbulent geopolitics of natural gas, the coming LNG glut, and why the UK–Norway relationship sits at the heart of Britain’s energy affordability crisis. Drawing on their recent joint op-ed, Bryony and Seb explore the UK’s dependence on Norwegian gas, the vast windfalls that have flowed into Norway’s sovereign wealth fund since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and whether a new bilateral deal could shield consumers from future price shocks. They examine the structural forces reshaping global gas markets, the rise of speculative trading, and whether electrification will become harder when gas gets cheap. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: Read Seb & Bryony’s Op-Ed on Energy Flux: https://www.energyflux.news/uk-norway-gas-trade-time-for-a-new-deal/Seb’s Energy Flux Podcast: https://www.energyflux.news/tag/podcast/Michael’s conversation with Carine Ihenecho Smith, Chief Governance and Compliance Officer at Norges Bank Investment Group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H028Vwf7pNMThe UK’s updated plan for the North Sea gas transition: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/north-sea-future-plan-for-fair-managed-and-prosperous-transitionBritain eases opposition to new oil, gas permits, holds firm on taxes | Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/uk-government-allows-some-new-oil-gas-fields-holds-firm-taxes-2025-11-26/

    1h 9m
  5. Inside Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre: A Green Giant Rises | Ep235: Robert Dunn

    NOV 26

    Inside Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre: A Green Giant Rises | Ep235: Robert Dunn

    What does it take to build Europe’s largest and most sustainable data-centre campus, from an empty plot of land to a 1.2-gigawatt giant of AI? How do you future-proof a facility when chip technology is evolving at breakneck speed? And what happens when the site of former coal-fired power plant becomes a global hub for AI? In this special, on-location episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich visits Sines, Portugal, where Start Campus is transforming the site of a decommissioned coal plant into a next-generation data-centre campus that once finished will be Europe’s largest data centre.  CEO Robert Dunn takes us inside the first operational building, currently 29MW but just 2.5% of what’s to come, to explore the engineering, economics, and vision behind a €10 billion physical infrastructure build that will eventually house an additional €40 billion in incoming IT hardware. From earthquake-proof structures to seawater cooling and uninterruptible power supply systems, Rob breaks down what it means to design for 99.99999% uptime in an AI-driven world. Michael and Rob also dive into the reality and hype surrounding AI: the surge in GPU-hungry AI training, the race to build at gigawatt scale, the challenges of financing these mega-projects, and the balancing act between speed, cost, sustainability, and long-term viability. Set against the backdrop of Microsoft’s freshly announced $10 billion investment in the Sines campus, this episode illuminates how the data-centre industry is reshaping global energy systems, local communities, and the future of compute. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Discover more: Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wThe Start Campus website: https://www.startcampus.pt/Microsoft makes one of its largest investments in Europe at Start Campus in Portugal: https://www.startcampus.pt/microsoft-makes-one-of-its-largest-investments-in-europe-at-start-campus-in-portugalMichael’s Green Giant’s Whitepaper: https://pioneerpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021.11.17-Green-Giants-White-Paper-Final.pdfThe Year Energy Woke Up To AI | Audioblog 14: Generative AI, The Power and the Glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A

    1h 3m
  6. California vs Trump In The Battle For Clean Air | Ep234: Liane Randolph

    NOV 19

    California vs Trump In The Battle For Clean Air | Ep234: Liane Randolph

    What happens when the world’s most ambitious climate state runs head-on into a hostile federal government? Can California still lead the clean-energy transition while battling rising costs, wildfires and the Trump government’s sweeping tariffs? And what does a “pragmatic reset” on climate policy look like when the stakes have never been higher? This week on Cleaning Up Bryony Worthington sits down with Liane Randolph, former Chair of the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and longtime public servant, shaping California’s climate, energy, and air-quality strategy. Across roles spanning the Public Utilities Commission and state natural resources agencies, Randolph has been at the center of some of the most consequential policy decisions in the United States — from the rise of rooftop solar and utility-scale storage to the creation of zero-emission vehicle mandates and the state’s pioneering cap-and-invest system. Together, they unpack how California built the modern EV market, the origins of the famous “duck curve,” and why central planning turned out to be critical for keeping the lights on in a decarbonizing grid. Randolph also details the extraordinary federal pushback now facing the state: repealed Clean Air Act waivers, legal battles over truck and car standards, and tariff-driven supply-chain shocks that threaten progress. The episode explores: The past and future of California’s zero-emission vehicle strategy — from catalytic converters to the birth of TeslaWhy batteries exploded onto the grid, and how wildfire adaptation is reshaping costsThe mechanics and impacts of California’s whole-economy cap-and-invest programThe new affordability crisis — and whether a pragmatic climate “reset” is neededElectric aviation, high-speed rail, and the technologies California should bet on nextThe state’s 2045 net-zero planning — and which sectors will need breakthroughs like DAC and industrial CCSLeadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: CARB: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/First Cars, Now Planes: Is The Future of Flying Electric? Ep194: Anders Forslund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW3uTBbAGHAWhy Is It So Hard to Clean Up Global Shipping? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto

    1h 13m
  7. ⁠The €65 Billion Plan to Modernise Germany’s Grids | Ep233: Tim Meyerjürgens

    NOV 12

    ⁠The €65 Billion Plan to Modernise Germany’s Grids | Ep233: Tim Meyerjürgens

    What does it take to future-proof Europe’s electricity grid? How do you finance €65 billion in infrastructure without driving up consumer electricity costs? And can the permitting process be sped up to become fast enough for the energy transition? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Tim Meyerjürgens, CEO of TenneT Germany, the country’s largest transmission system operator, to explore the physics and finance behind decarbonising Europe’s power networks. From billion-euro transmission lines to the domestic and international politics of connecting the North Sea’s vast offshore wind potential with Germany’s industrial heartland, Meyerjürgens offers a rare inside view of one of Europe’s most complex and capital-intensive transitions. The conversation dives into: • How TenneT split its Dutch and German operations to attract €9.5 billion in equity from investors like Norges Bank and GIC • The challenge of accelerating grid buildout from 20-year to 5-year timelines • The delicate balance between regulation, investment, and public acceptance • Why building our transmission across Europe is key to energy resilience This episode was supported by TenneT Germany. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: • TenneT Germany’s website: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/home  • TenneT Germany successfully concludes syndication of €12 billion revolving credit facility: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/news/tennet-germany-successfully-concludes-syndication-eu12-billion-revolving-credit-facility • The £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA • Can Europe Survive the Renewables Transition? Ep201: Nikos Tsafos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUvKzs82Mi0

    1h 3m
  8. Why There'll Never Be A Hydrogen Economy | Ep232: Erik Rakhou

    NOV 5

    Why There'll Never Be A Hydrogen Economy | Ep232: Erik Rakhou

    Is green hydrogen a ‘miracle fuel’ or an expensive illusion? Can we decarbonize without it? And what happens when hydrogen hype meets hard economics? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich debates Erik Rakhou, author of Touching Hydrogen Future, in a no-holds-barred discussion moderated by Andrew Critchlow of S&P Global Commodity Insights. Together, they contest one of the most contentious topics in energy today: hydrogen. Liebreich argues that hydrogen is plagued by physics-driven cost barriers and limited real-world applications, while Rakhou defends its potential as a critical tool for industrial decarbonization, energy resilience, and long-term security. From the potential of green vs. blue hydrogen, to global ammonia trade routes, Europe’s pipeline ambitions, and China’s hydrogen cost curve, this debate pulls no punches.  Topics include: Whether there’ll ever be a hydrogen-based economyWhy hydrogen economics remain so challengingThe role of carbon pricing vs. subsidiese-Fuels and hydrogen’s place in transport, steel, and aviationWhy electrification trumps hydrogenThis episode was recorded at the S&P Global offices in London and originally broadcast as a S&P Global webinar on October 29, 2025. THanks to S&P Global and Andrew Critchlow for hosting the debate. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Read more: Erik's website: https://rakhou.comThe EU’s hydrogen strategy: https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/eus-energy-system/hydrogen_enData on EU natural gas prices 2010-2025: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1buQTdpQOMShue-zXyZUYVgZ9dPe5rZ5Y/view?usp=share_linkMichael Liebreich's Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj900aBPkiYErik’s book ‘Touching Hydrogen Futures’: https://europeangasmarket.euEuropean Court of Auditors call for a hydrogen reality check: https://www.eca.europa.eu/en/news/NEWS-SR-2024-11Michael’s Pragmatic Climate Reset: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/

    1h 7m
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

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