Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter

Bill

Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter with Dr. O. Listen in as each episode begins with a brief explanation of why animals with specific problems need to be checked by a certified chiropractor. If you have a problem you would like addressed please send ideas to drormston@hotmail.com. Dr. O will then interview the people of Animal Chiropractic and examine their wins with Animal Chiropractic. Finally listen to the philosophy of Animal Chiropractic in Dr. O's words.

  1. Aug 26

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Eli Guttman Episode 99

    Join Dr. O on today’s episode of Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter as he sits down with human and animal chiropractor Dr. Eli Guttman to discuss his journey into animal chiropractic, helping dogs and horses, memorable success stories, and the growing opportunities in the field. Discover why hands-on experience, a love for animals, and a passion for helping the community are at the heart of his practice. Listen now and join the conversation! 👍 If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to Like, Subscribe, and turn on notifications so you never miss future episodes of The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast. 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from the world of animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this is the podcast for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X Connect with us for more conversations about Animal Chiropractic, pet wellness, and holistic animal care! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone or our practice. Both Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments in an attempt to restore normal motion to the joints of your animals body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that a misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from and around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science and philosophy which releases the inherent recuperative powers of the body and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body, heals the body, it happens no other way. Support the show

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Eli Guttman Episode 99
  2. Aug 12

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Abigail Badger Episode 98

    Welcome to The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast! 🐾🎙️ In this episode, Dr. O sits down with Dr. Abigail Badger, Owner and Chiropractor of Prime Performance Chiropractic and Therapies in Jefferson, Iowa, for an inspiring conversation about her journey into Animal Chiropractic and her experience building a practice that serves both humans and animals. Dr. Abigail shares her experiences working with animals, the rewarding wins she has witnessed through Animal Chiropractic, and the passion that continues to drive her practice. She also talks about the importance of chiropractic care for animals and the meaningful difference it can make in the lives of animals and the people who care for them. You can also watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/9-HBHt7H5Eg 👍 If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to Like, Subscribe, and turn on notifications so you never miss future episodes of The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast. 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from the world of animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this is the podcast for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X Connect with us for more conversations about Animal Chiropractic, pet wellness, and holistic animal care! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone or our practice. Both Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments in an attempt to restore normal motion to the joints of your animals body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that a misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from and around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science and philosophy which releases the inherent recuperative powers of the body and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body, heals the body, it happens no other way. Support the show

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Abigail Badger Episode 98
  3. Jul 29

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr Carolyn Longacre - (Part 2 Episode 97)

    Welcome to The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast! 🐾 In Part 2 of our conversation, Dr. O continues his discussion with special guest Dr. Carolyn Longacre of Evergreen Chiropractic and Wellness, LLC. This episode explores the fascinating role of Animal Chiropractic in food animal health, including Dr. Carolyn's recent study on chicken eggs and how chiropractic adjustments may help support the production of healthier, higher-quality eggs. Join us as we dive into innovative applications of Animal Chiropractic, real-world experiences, and practical insights that highlight the growing impact of chiropractic care on animal health and performance. Whether you're an animal chiropractor, veterinarian, farmer, pet owner, or simply interested in holistic animal healthcare, you'll find this conversation both educational and inspiring. 👍 If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to Like, Subscribe, and turn on notifications so you never miss future episodes of The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast. 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from the world of animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this is the podcast for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X Connect with us for more conversations about Animal Chiropractic, pet wellness, and holistic animal care! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone or our practice. Both Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments in an attempt to restore normal motion to the joints of your animals body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that a misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from and around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science and philosophy which releases the inherent recuperative powers of the body and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body, heals the body, it happens no other way. Support the show

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr Carolyn Longacre - (Part 2 Episode 97)
  4. Jul 15

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr Carolyn Longacre - (Part 1 Episode 96) 🎙️

    Welcome to The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast! 🐾 In today's episode, Dr. O welcomes special guest Dr. Carolyn Longacre for Part 1 of a two-part podcast series exploring her inspiring journey into the world of Animal Chiropractic. Discover how this unique profession became a fulfilling career as Dr. Carolyn shares her personal experiences, memorable successes, and the lessons she's learned along the way. Whether you're an animal lover, pet owner, veterinary professional, or simply curious about holistic animal healthcare, this conversation offers valuable insights into the positive impact Animal Chiropractic can have on the lives of animals and the people who care for them. Be sure to come back for Part 2, where the conversation continues with even more stories, practical insights, and expert perspectives from Dr. Carolyn. 👍 If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to Like, Subscribe, and turn on notifications so you never miss future episodes of The Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter Podcast. 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from the world of animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this is the podcast for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X Connect with us for more conversations about Animal Chiropractic, pet wellness, and holistic animal care! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone or our practice. Both Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments in an attempt to restore normal motion to the joints of your animals body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that a misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from and around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science and philosophy which releases the inherent recuperative powers of the body and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body, heals the body, it happens no other way. Support the show

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr  Carolyn Longacre - (Part 1 Episode 96) 🎙️
  5. 11/27/2025

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Eileen Haworth - Episode 95 🎙️

    In this episode, Dr. O sits down with Dr. Eileen Haworth, an Animal Chiropractor from California, as she shares her inspiring wins in the field of animal chiropractic and the important things every pet owner should know about this growing profession. From breakthroughs in patient care to empowering stories from her practice, Dr. Eileen brings insight, passion, and wisdom to the conversation. 🎥 Watch the full episode now on YouTube - https://youtu.be/2-yiinyzO5g Join us for another episode filled with knowledge, impact, and heart—perfect for animal lovers, pet parents, and aspiring animal chiropractic professionals! If you’re passionate about animal wellness, chiropractic care, or natural healing for pets, this is an episode you don’t want to miss! 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from the world of animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this is the podcast for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X If you're looking for the number one hands-free way to market your practice, give the Chiro Website Pro a call at 423-779-4630 or visit https://www.chirowebsitepro.com/ and make sure you ask them about the special ACES discount and let them know Dr. O sent you. You'll be glad! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone of our practice. Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments to restore normal motion to the joints of your animal's body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science, and philosophy that releases the body's inherent recuperative powers and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body heals the body, it happens no other way.  Support the show

    🐾 Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Eileen Haworth - Episode 95 🎙️
  6. 11/12/2025

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Jackie Walker - Episode 94

    Welcome to today’s episode of the Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter with Dr. O!  In this episode, Dr. O interviews Dr. Jackie Walker, an Animal Chiropractor at Hilton Veterinary Hospital in Hilton, NY. Dr. Jackie shares her inspiring journey into the world of animal chiropractic—how her passion for helping animals led her to a rewarding career, and the wins she’s experienced along the way.   Tune in to hear her story, her love for animals, and how chiropractic care continues to make a difference in the lives of pets and their owners.   📺 Watch the full episode now or listen via Buzzsprout to be inspired by Dr. Jackie’s journey!   📺 Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/MGSOvbDPbqY 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this podcast is for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X If you're looking for the number one hands-free way to market your practice, give the Chiro Website Pro a call at 423-779-4630 or visit https://www.chirowebsitepro.com/ and make sure you ask them about the special ACES discount and let them know Dr. O sent you. You'll be glad! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone of our practice. Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments to restore normal motion to the joints of your animal's body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science, and philosophy that releases the body's inherent recuperative powers and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body heals the body, it happens no other way.  Support the show

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Jackie Walker - Episode 94
  7. 10/29/2025

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Alicia Vigil - Episode 93

    Welcome to today’s episode of Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter with Dr. O! In this inspiring episode, Dr. O sits down with Dr. Alicia Vigil, a dedicated veterinarian who has successfully integrated animal chiropractic into her veterinary practice. Dr. Alicia shares her journey, her biggest wins, and how combining traditional veterinary medicine with chiropractic care has transformed the way she helps animals heal and thrive. Her story is a true example of how holistic approaches can elevate animal health and well-being! 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this podcast is for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X If you're looking for the number one hands-free way to market your practice, give the Chiro Website Pro a call at 423-779-4630 or visit https://www.chirowebsitepro.com/ and make sure you ask them about the special ACES discount and let them know Dr. O sent you. You'll be glad! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone of our practice. Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments to restore normal motion to the joints of your animal's body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science, and philosophy that releases the body's inherent recuperative powers and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body heals the body, it happens no other way.  Support the show

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Alicia Vigil - Episode 93
  8. 10/15/2025

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Julie Wilkinson - Episode 92

    In this episode of Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter, Dr. O sits down with Dr. Julie Wilkinson, a passionate chiropractor who serves both humans and animals through her practice, Flow of Life Family Chiropractic, LLC. Dr. Julie opens up about her inspiring journey, the connection between animal and human chiropractic care, and the incredible wins and discoveries she’s experienced along the way. From helping pets move freely again to supporting families in their overall wellness, her story is one you won’t want to miss! 📅 Tune in now to learn more about the heart, science, and passion behind animal chiropractic care. 🔔 Subscribe & Follow: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allcreatureseveryspine5711 Buzzsprout: https://animalchiropracticclinicchatter.buzzsprout.com/ If you enjoyed this episode, please like, comment, and subscribe for more amazing stories and insights from animal chiropractic care. 👉 Follow us on our social media platforms: https://www.facebook.com/allspines1/ https://www.facebook.com/animalchiroaces/ If you are a veterinarian or animal lover, this podcast is for you! Learn how to improve your pet's quality of life with a simple adjustment. Get a copy of Dr. O's book, "Yes! It's Really A Thing" through this link: https://www.animalchiropracticeducation.com/search?q=Yes or through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Its-Really-Thing-Chiropractic/dp/057868005X If you're looking for the number one hands-free way to market your practice, give the Chiro Website Pro a call at 423-779-4630 or visit https://www.chirowebsitepro.com/ and make sure you ask them about the special ACES discount and let them know Dr. O sent you. You'll be glad! All Creatures Every Spine (ACES) 10771 Hwy 6 Meridian, TX 76665 Phone: 843.900.1502 Dr. Amy Hayek DVM, CAC, CVA Dr. Bill Ormston DVM, CAC, DVETHOM Chiropractic care is the cornerstone of our practice. Dr. Amy and Dr. O are certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. This modality helps the nervous system attempt to achieve its maximum potential allowing your animal to function to the best of its ability. They will utilize a series of manual adjustments to restore normal motion to the joints of your animal's body. The science of chiropractic care has discovered throughout the last one hundred years that misalignment of joints (subluxation), especially the vertebrae, adversely alters nerve function from around those areas. Altered nerve impulses leaving the spinal column can adversely affect the function of organs and tissues supplied by that nerve. This altered function can lead to pain, disease, fatigue, muscle weakness, poor balance, immune suppression, etc. Animal chiropractic is the art, science, and philosophy that releases the body's inherent recuperative powers and allows the body to deal with the relationship between the nervous system and the spinal column and its associated structures. Remember, the power that made the body heals the body, it happens no other way.    Support the show

    🎥🎙️ Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter | Interview with Dr. Julie Wilkinson - Episode 92
5
out of 5
3 Ratings

About

Animal Chiropractic Clinic Chatter with Dr. O. Listen in as each episode begins with a brief explanation of why animals with specific problems need to be checked by a certified chiropractor. If you have a problem you would like addressed please send ideas to drormston@hotmail.com. Dr. O will then interview the people of Animal Chiropractic and examine their wins with Animal Chiropractic. Finally listen to the philosophy of Animal Chiropractic in Dr. O's words.