GOTO - The Brightest Minds in Tech

GOTO

The GOTO podcast seeks out the brightest and boldest ideas from language creators and the world's leading experts in software development in the form of interviews and conference talks. Tune in to get the inspiration you need to bring in new technologies or gain extra evidence to support your software development plan.

  1. 1d ago

    The C4 Model: Visualizing Software Architecture • Simon Brown & Susanne Kaiser

    This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. http://gotopia.tech/bookclub Check out more here: https://gotopia.tech/episodes/449 Simon Brown - Author & Creator of "The C4 Model" Susanne Kaiser - Independent Tech Consultant & Author of "Architecture for Flow" RESOURCES Simon https://simonbrown.je https://bsky.app/profile/simonbrown.je https://twitter.com/simonbrown https://linkedin.com/in/simonbrownjersey https://c4model.com Susanne https://bsky.app/profile/suksr.bsky.social https://mastodon.social/@suksr https://www.linkedin.com/in/susannekaiser1 https://susannekaiser.net Links https://structurizr.com DESCRIPTION Simon Brown explains that the C4 Model started not as a grand design theory, but as a practical answer to an embarrassing problem: running a workshop on architecture diagramming, he realized he couldn't understand any of the diagrams being produced. The model formalized his own consulting practice of hierarchical handover documentation — context diagram at the top, containers below, components and code at the bottom — giving it a name and making it teachable. His core advice is to start with just the top two levels: context and container diagrams. These change infrequently, are quick to draw, and deliver immediate value. Levels three and four — components and code — are included for completeness but age rapidly with every commit, and in most cases aren't worth the maintenance overhead. Two especially practical insights emerge from the conversation. First, how to handle microservices: if your team owns all the services inside a system boundary, each service is a collection of C4 containers; if you depend on another team's service that you can't see inside, model it as an opaque software system. This maps naturally to how domain boundaries and team ownership actually work in practice. Second, the surprisingly important distinction between modeling and diagramming: C4's real value is the shared vocabulary — systems, containers, components, code — not the visual notation itself. Teams using entirely different tooling can communicate clearly because they've agreed on what the words mean. Simon is firm that there will be no C4 v2; the model is intentionally lightweight, and adding more would risk turning it into the next UML — comprehensive, heavy, and largely abandoned. RECOMMENDED BOOKS Simon Brown • The C4 Model • https://amzn.to/4xB9V33 Susanne Kaiser • Adaptive Systems With Domain-Driven Design, Wardley Mapping & Team Topologies • https://amzn.to/3XTmNCc Nick Rozanski &, Eóin Woods • Software Systems Architecture • https://amzn.to/4cOLtTv van Kelle, Verschatse &Baas-Schwegler • Collaborative Software Design • https://amzn.to/4iv0N8I Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    The C4 Model: Visualizing Software Architecture • Simon Brown & Susanne Kaiser

  2. Jul 24

    Cloud, Containers, Security & AI - What’s Now, What’s Next? • Adrian Mouat, Kief Morris & Sam Newman

    This interview was recorded at GOTO Copenhagen 2025. https://gotocph.com Adrian Mouat - Developer Relations at Chainguard & Author of "Using Docker" Kief Morris - Author of "Infrastructure as Code" & Distinguished Engineer at Thoughtworks Sam Newman - Author of "Building Microservices" & "Monolith to Microservices" RESOURCES Adrian https://bsky.app/profile/adrianmouat.com https://twitter.com/adrianmouat https://github.com/amouat https://linkedin.com/in/adrianmouat http://www.adrianmouat.com Kief https://bsky.app/profile/kief.com https://twitter.com/kief https://github.com/kief https://www.linkedin.com/in/kiefmorris https://infrastructure-as-code.com https://kief.com Sam https://twitter.com/samnewman https://www.linkedin.com/in/samnewman http://samnewman.io http://samnewman.io/blog https://github.com/snewman ABSTRACT In this session, Sam Newman will interview Kief Morris and Adrian Mouat, both experts in their field. We will explore the current reality of security in the container world, how infrastructure automation is impacted by AI, and whether platform teams are actually working. We’ll also be taking lots of questions from the audience! [...] Read the full abstract here: https://gotocph.com/2025/sessions/3938 RECOMMENDED BOOKS Adrian Mouat • Using Docker • https://amzn.to/3PEYIJL Liz Rice • Container Security • https://amzn.to/3oU4iJe Kief Morris • Infrastructure as Code • https://amzn.to/4e6EBQc Sam Newman • Building Resilient Distributed Systems • https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/building-resilient-distributed/9781098163532 Sam Newman • Monolith to Microservices • https://amzn.to/2Nml96E Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Cloud, Containers, Security & AI - What’s Now, What’s Next? • Adrian Mouat, Kief Morris & Sam Newman

  3. Jul 17

    Signals & Levers • Elisabeth Hendrickson, Joel Tosi & Charles Humble

    This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. http://gotopia.tech/bookclub Elisabeth Hendrickson - Advisor, Coach, Speaker & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers" Joel Tosi - Co-Founder & CTO at Dojo & Co & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers" Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant Check out more here: https://gotopia.tech/episodes/448 RESOURCES Elisabeth https://ruby.social/@testobsessed https://github.com/testobsessed https://www.linkedin.com/in/testobsessed https://curiousduck.io Joel https://mastodon.social/@joeltosi https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-tosi-531a3b Charles https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble https://conissaunce.com Links https://ruthmalan.com http://www.ask-force.org/web/Discourse/Rittel-Dilemmas-General-Theory-Planning-1973.pdf DESCRIPTION Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi open by explaining why systems thinking is having a moment right now: organizations that went all-in on Agile and DevOps are finding those returns plateauing, and the rise of AI is forcing engineering teams to reexamine where their real bottlenecks are. The book, Signals & Levers, gives software engineers a practical vocabulary and toolkit for that examination. A core insight is that most organizational dysfunction isn't caused by bad people or bad intentions, but by systems that produce bad outcomes predictably and structurally. The named archetypes in the book — over 20 of them, covering patterns like escalating technical debt, the "fixes that fail" loop, and the boiling frog — give teams a shared language to recognize and reason about those patterns without having to discover them from scratch. The most practically actionable section of the conversation covers signals versus levers: understanding the difference between information (a signal) and an intervention point (a lever) is the foundation for making changes that actually work rather than changes that feel productive and achieve nothing. On AI, both authors are cautious in the right ways: Elisabeth uses it daily as a thinking partner but keeps herself firmly at the steering wheel. Joel's warning is starker — AI amplifies whatever is already true about your organization, including dysfunction, and if it lets you ship faster than you can learn, the consequences may be severe. The book closes with an exercise for the reader: if AI doubles your delivery speed, what happens when you can ship faster than you can adapt? RECOMMENDED BOOKS Elisabeth Hendrickson & Joel Tosi • Signals & Levers • https://amzn.to/4g6Fb3C Diana Montalion • Learning Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/3ZpycdJ Don Norman • The Design of Everyday Things • https://amzn.to/4fV6QVl Gene Kim • The Unicorn Project • https://amzn.to/3woXQDz Gene Kim, Kevin Behr & George Spafford • The Phoenix Project • https://amzn.to/3X9cYxa Peter Degrace & Leslie Hulet Stahl • Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions • https://amzn.to/3ScP0D9 Frederick Brooks Jr. • The Mythical Man-Month • https://amzn.to/4gd10OV Gerald Weinberg • An Introduction to General Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/4dZCsaO Donella H. Meadows • Thinking in Systems • https://amzn.to/3XtqYCV Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Signals & Levers • Elisabeth Hendrickson, Joel Tosi & Charles Humble

  4. Jul 10

    The Architect's Guide to the AI Era • Luca Mezzalira & Teena Idnani

    This interview was recorded for GOTO Unscripted. https://gotopia.tech Luca Mezzalira - Solutions Architect, Consultant, International Speaker & Author of "Building Micro-Frontends" Teena Idnani - Senior Solutions Architect at Microsoft & Woman in Tech Leader Check out more here: https://gotopia.tech/articles/447 RESOURCES Luca https://www.buildingmicrofrontends.com https://twitter.com/lucamezzalira https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucamezzalira https://linktr.ee/lucamezzalira https://lucamezzalira.com Teena https://www.linkedin.com/in/teenaidnani DESCRIPTION Luca Mezzalira and Teena Idnani open with a clear framing: AI is accelerating certain tasks architects do, but the fundamentals — understanding context, connecting technical decisions to business capability, designing for evolutionary systems — are unchanged and arguably more important than ever. Luca identifies what he calls the shift from a T-shaped to an "M-shaped" architect: broader and deeper simultaneously, using AI as a research accelerator that collapses days of trade-off analysis into hours. Both agree that the biggest current risk isn't that AI will replace architects, but that AI-generated code can look convincingly correct and pass initial testing while concealing edge-case failures that only surface under load, regulatory audit, or upstream change — particularly dangerous in regulated industries like finance. The conversation sharpens around what architects must double down on to stay relevant. Luca advocates for merging deterministic and probabilistic systems through harness engineering — combining linters, static analysis, and deterministic guardrails with AI code assistants to produce more predictable outcomes. More broadly, both conclude that empathy is now a core technical skill: the architect's real job is riding the "elevator" between the engine room and the C-suite, translating freely in both directions. Luca's rule of thumb has shifted from 70% people and context, 30% technical — to nearly 90/10 in the AI era. The competitive edge for architects, they agree, is not in generating code, but in knowing which problems are worth solving and why. RECOMMENDED BOOKS Luca Mezzalira • Building Micro-Frontends • https://amzn.to/4ekqV5Y Luca Mezzalira • Front-End Reactive Architectures • https://amzn.to/43a8VVJ Gregor Hohpe • The Software Architect Elevator • https://amzn.to/3F6d2ax Gregor Hohpe • Enterprise Integration Patterns, Vol 2 • https://amzn.to/3TNedQ3 Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    The Architect's Guide to the AI Era • Luca Mezzalira & Teena Idnani

  5. Jul 3

    Model-Based Systems Eng. & Requirements Definition • Dennis Hansen & Jorge Orellana

    This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. http://gotopia.tech/bookclub Dennis Hansen - Air Force Veteran, Chief Systems Engineer & Author of "Model-Based Systems Engineering and Requirements Definition" Jorge Orellana - Model Based Systems Engineer at IERUS Technologies & CEO & Founder at SCATTERBRAINS Check out more here: https://gotopia.tech/episodes/445 RESOURCES Jorge https://www.linkedin.com/in/jorge-orellana-0b729129 DESCRIPTION Dennis Hansen brings over six decades of systems engineering experience to this GOTO Book Club conversation — from Air Force airborne navigation technician to Chief Systems Engineer at L3Harris on programs including the complete rebuild of the GOES-R ground system for NOAA and NASA. His book argues that the fundamental failure mode in complex system development is the same every time: requirements are defined too loosely, too late, or across multiple model layers simultaneously. He structures the approach using an onion model — a layering framework he was taught by a Motorola engineer in 1961 — where each layer (mission, capabilities, activities, technical requirements, specifications) must be completed before the next is begun. Skipping layers or trying to do two at once invariably produces excess or faulty requirements that surface as expensive failures during system testing, or worse, after deployment. The second half of the conversation focuses on why modeling tools are databases, not drawing programs — a distinction Dennis considers critical. Every element in the model carries its associated requirements and the reasoning behind design decisions, which means that when you return to work after a weekend, you don't lose hours reconstructing your thinking. More importantly, when change requests arrive — and they always do — a maintained model lets you trace the impact backwards through the system and understand exactly what has to be modified, rather than slapping on a fix that creates five new problems. Dennis's closing advice is the thread that runs through the entire book: collaborate at every stage, every discipline working together rather than in silos, and define things properly upfront. Everything else follows from that. RECOMMENDED BOOKS Dennis Hansen • Model-Based Systems Engineering and Requirements Definition • https://amzn.to/4e6IiqJ Kossiakoff, Seymour, Flanigan & Biemer • Systems Engineering Principles and Practice • https://amzn.to/4a7Elj9 Dr. Bruce Powel Douglass • Agile Model-Based Systems Engineering Cookbook • https://amzn.to/4wYnj12 Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Model-Based Systems Eng. & Requirements Definition • Dennis Hansen & Jorge Orellana

  6. Jun 26

    Sovereign Cloud: Who Really Owns Your Infrastructure? • Jake Warner & Charles Humble

    This interview was recorded for GOTO Unscripted in May 2026. https://gotopia.tech Read the full transcription of this interview here: https://gotopia.tech/articles/445 Jake Warner - Co-Founder & CEO at Cycle  @JakeWarner  Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant RESOURCES Jake https://bsky.app/profile/jakewarner.com https://x.com/jakewarner https://github.com/JakeWarner https://www.linkedin.com/in/jakewarner https://jakewarner.com Charles https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble https://conissaunce.com DESCRIPTION Jake Warner, co-founder and CEO of Cycle.io, traces a pattern he's watched repeat itself since his OpenStack days: a new orchestration technology arrives, developers adopt it enthusiastically, it grows in complexity, and organizations eventually ask whether managing it is really a core competency. He made a decade-long bet that Kubernetes would follow the same arc — and built Cycle as the answer: a distributed control plane that lets companies own their own infrastructure and compute while still getting a clean, platform-like experience on top of it. The key design principle is a high ceiling without sacrificing simplicity — companies shouldn't have to re-platform every time they grow, and they shouldn't have to give up infrastructure ownership to get ease of use. The conversation then pivots to Sovereign Cloud, which Jake frames not as a niche regulatory concern but as a fundamental trust and ownership question. He draws attention to a risk many organizations underestimate: the control plane itself. Unlike many platforms where the control plane is a single point of failure and a blackbox, Cycle's architecture ensures that even if the control plane goes down, customer infrastructure keeps running — servers maintain their own manifests and restart containers independently. Looking ahead, Jake expects more regions and countries to build their own cloud equivalents, driven by privacy concerns, data residency laws, and geopolitical pressures that are accelerating faster than the technology is. His conclusion: the organizations that handed AWS all the keys are beginning to realize the cost — and the industry is correcting. RECOMMENDED BOOKS Alan Hamilton • Sovereign Cloud Operations • https://amzn.to/4dqYAe4 Leonard J. Horta • The Cloud Exit Strategy • https://amzn.to/4dXqeiN Charles Curry & Tanessa Curry • Cooling the Cloud • https://amzn.to/4a0d4iA Liz Rice • Container Security • https://amzn.to/3oU4iJe Liz Rice • Kubernetes Security • https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/kubernetes-security/9781492039075 Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Sovereign Cloud: Who Really Owns Your Infrastructure? • Jake Warner & Charles Humble

  7. Jun 23

    Dungeons, Dragons & Developers • Matt Brunt

    This presentation was recorded at YOW! 2025. https://yowcon.com Matt Brunt - Dungeon Master & Team Tinkerer RESOURCES https://bsky.app/profile/brunty.me https://mastodon.social/@brunty https://github.com/Brunty https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattbrunt https://brunty.me ABSTRACT You enter the dungeon, as the echoes of your footsteps sound around you, something catches your eye - is that… oh, oh no. You grab your trusty sword and with your fellow adventurers, you seek to overcome the mighty challenge that lays ahead of you: building software. This talk is a look at some of the parallels between Dungeons and Dragons, and software development. We’ll see how lessons learned through delving into dungeons and fighting monsters with a party of adventurers can help teams of developers when building software in the real world. Are you ready to join me in a mighty quest for better software? [...] Download slides and read the full abstract here: https://yowcon.com/brisbane-2025/sessions/3641 RECOMMENDED BOOKS Heidi Helfand • Dynamic Reteaming • https://amzn.to/3Fvu5BA Heidi Helfand • How to Change Your Teams • https://leanpub.com/DRTGuide Carl Larson & Frank M J LaFasto • Teamwork • https://amzn.to/4cFWseQ Gene Kim & Steve Spear • Wiring the Winning Organization • https://amzn.to/3QJcfBp Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Dungeons, Dragons & Developers • Matt Brunt

  8. Jun 19

    Continuous Delivery in a World of Constant Change • Abby Bangser & Dave Farley

    This presentation was recorded at GOTO Copenhagen 2025. https://gotocph.com Abby Bangser - Principal Engineer at Syntasso & Team Topologies Advocate Dave Farley - Bestselling Author, Founder & Director of Continuous Delivery Ltd. RESOURCES Abby https://bsky.app/profile/abangser.bsky.social https://twitter.com/a_bangser https://github.com/abangser https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbybangser https://www.syntasso.io/members-area/abby/profile Dave https://bsky.app/profile/davefarley77.bsky.social https://www.continuous-delivery.co.uk https://linkedin.com/in/dave-farley-a67927 https://twitter.com/davefarley77 http://www.davefarley.net DESCRIPTION Dave Farley and Abby Bangser open with a clear statement: Continuous Delivery isn't a relic of the pre-AI era — it's the foundation that makes the AI era survivable. Dave's definition is simple but consequential: software should always be in a releasable state, verified after every small change. That's not just a workflow preference; it's the same incremental, hypothesis-driven approach that underpins science and engineering. In an AI-assisted world where code can be generated far faster than humans can reason about it, the discipline of small, safe, verifiable steps becomes more critical, not less. The danger isn't AI writing bad code — it's AI writing a lot of code very fast that nobody is properly checking. The conversation turns to a genuinely alarming DORA report statistic: 70% of developers using AI tools don't distrust the output. Abby draws a parallel to the long-running debate over whether developers can be trusted to test their own code — they usually can't, without a deliberate change in perspective. The same challenge applies to AI-generated code: you need to consciously shift from "prompter" mode to "verifier" mode, and most developers aren't making that switch. Dave closes with a surprising note of optimism: AI may be the industry's best-ever opportunity to finally get XP practices — small increments, automated tests, continuous feedback — embedded into how teams actually work. Not because anyone chose to adopt them ideologically, but because working without them while using AI is visibly, measurably risky. Read the full abstract here: https://gotocph.com/2025/sessions/3779 RECOMMENDED BOOKS Kief Morris • Infrastructure as Code • https://amzn.to/4e6EBQc Matthew Skelton & Manuel Pais • Team Topologies • http://amzn.to/3sVLyLQ Dave Thomas • simplicity • https://amzn.to/43FghBJ Dave Farley & Jez Humble • Continuous Delivery • https://amzn.to/3ocIHwd David Farley • Modern Software Engineering • https://amzn.to/3GI468M Dave Farley • Continuous Delivery Pipelines • https://amzn.to/3rjetdi Bluesky Instagram LinkedIn Facebook CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.tech SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

    Continuous Delivery in a World of Constant Change • Abby Bangser & Dave Farley
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The GOTO podcast seeks out the brightest and boldest ideas from language creators and the world's leading experts in software development in the form of interviews and conference talks. Tune in to get the inspiration you need to bring in new technologies or gain extra evidence to support your software development plan.

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