Clerestory (Bryan Kam)

Bryan Kam

A podcast on philosophy. I'm interested in the origins of complexity, suffering, and selfhood. I'm now lucky to have conversations with amazing people, mostly on Eastern/Western philosophy. Early episodes are my monologues (with prose followed by poetry).

  1. Why Abstraction Causes Suffering: The Neither/Nor paper

    May 28

    Why Abstraction Causes Suffering: The Neither/Nor paper

    My long-awaited full PDF paper is out. “Neither/Nor: a pragmatic philosophy for oscillating between conceptual and experiential knowledge,” co-authored with Isabela Granic, is available here. (PDF) Jonah Wilberg, who writes The Wider Angle here on Substack, interviewed me on the principles of the paper. We recorded in my living room. The core argument: rationality and perception are not two incompatible philosophical positions, but two trainable skills. Then the question shifts from Which is right? to Which one should I choose now? In the podcast, Jonah and I work through what we call “Neither/Nor”: an approach that treats conceptual, abstract reason and embodied, experiential perception not as competing metaphysical positions — neither "rationalism" nor "empiricism" — but as capacities you can deliberately develop and oscillate between. Western philosophy tends to privilege the conceptual. We call this "latent Platonism": the often-unconscious tendency to reify abstractions — to treat “capitalism” or “the self” as objects with real existence rather than as useful but provisional constructs. Other traditions, notably Buddhism, push in the opposite direction, treating direct experience as the more reliable guide and concepts as a distraction. Our argument is that neither is sufficient alone. What matters is the oscillation. Drawing on managing type 1 diabetes, meditation, cooking, sport, CBT versus psychoanalysis, and Kuhn's paradigm shifts applied to personal identity crises, I try to describe when it's most useful to construct a conceptually stable model — and when it's most useful to dissolve one in favour of direct experience or incoming evidence. Neither position is final. The paper also develops related principles around relations and processes over static objects (drawing on Whitehead, Bateson, and complexity science), trial-and-error learning, and what we call conditional historicism over linear causality. 00:00 Why This Paper Matters 02:25 Two Ways of Knowing 05:36 Neither Nor Explained 06:13 Diabetes and Attention 07:43 Principle One Setup 09:24 Latent Platonism Today 15:39 Concepts as Skills 21:18 Training Experience 23:59 Why Not Both And 26:24 Meditation and Perception 32:14 Jhanas and Suffering 34:30 Flourishing in Practice 36:25 Everyday Neither Nor Tools 37:59 Both And Training Analogy 40:42 Oscillation Principle Explained 42:22 Paradigm Shifts and Identity 46:31 Therapy and Emotional Reconsolidation 49:58 Metamodernism and Two Modes 55:54 Process Thinking and Whitehead 01:06:16 Trial Error and Historicism 01:11:07 Order Chaos and Bureaucracy 01:15:12 Wrap Up and Where to Find More

    1h 19m
  2. Samsara Is Nirvana, with Brook Ziporyn

    May 28

    Samsara Is Nirvana, with Brook Ziporyn

    I’m Bryan Kam. I endeavour daily to make philosophy accessible and relevant. To that end I write this newsletter and host a podcast called Clerestory. I’m also writing a book called Neither/Nor and I’m a founding member of Liminal Learning. In London, I host a book club, a writing group, and other events. My work looks at how conceptual abstraction relates to embodied life, and how to use this understanding to transform experience. I was thrilled recently to speak with a hero of mine, Brook Ziporyn, who is Mircea Eliade Professor of Chinese Religion, Philosophy, and Comparative Thought at the University of Chicago. In this podcast we cover Ziporyn’s intellectual history, from his grandfather’s Spinozism to the ontological ambiguities of Tiantai Buddhism. We spoke about how values undermine themselves when made explicit, how grammar shapes metaphysics, and what happens when one follows anti-realism all the way through to its surprisingly positive consequences. Professor Ziporyn traced a philosophical thread that runs from the Daodejing’s second chapter—”when all in the world recognizes the good as good, there is the bad”—through Buddhist emptiness to Spinoza’s critique of teleology. This “value paradox” suggests that explicit embrace of values contains an immanent reversal, a self-undermining which challenges the Western philosophical tradition’s foundation in purpose, natural kinds, and the Good. We look at related insights across traditions, for example: Chinese Buddhism’s claim that samsara is nirvana, in Schopenhauer’s blind will that has no internal divisions nor any ultimate goal, in Nietzsche’s affirmation of life including its suffering, and in the Daoist sage who acts through wu-wei (spontaneous action or non-action) rather than purposeful striving. A central exploration concerns how language inclines thought, though it doesn’t limit it. Classical Chinese lacks tense, gender, singular/plural distinctions, definite articles, and even clear differentiation between parts of speech—the same word can be beauty, beautiful, or to beautify depending on context. This grammatical openness means that certain metaphysical questions of “Being” simply do not naturally arise. Other philosophical questions, whose appeal is difficult to render into English, do, of course, arise in Chinese — like the paradox “a white horse is not a horse”. By contrast, Indo-European languages with their subject-predicate structure seem to demand an agent behind every action (Nietzsche’s example: “it rains”—what is the “it” that does the raining?). The law of excluded middle, natural kinds, and teleological thinking may be, as Ziporyn puts it, “downhill” moves in Western languages—statistically more likely to develop because they’re grammatically easier to express. But they are “uphill” for Chinese, meaning that they can be expressed with difficulty. Likewise, Chinese insights into “non-purposive action” can be expressed easily in Classical Chinese, but only with difficulty in Western languages, like Spinoza’s Latin or Schopenhauer’s German. Ziporyn has written on “ontological ambiguity” in Tiantai Buddhism. Rather than ambiguity being merely epistemological (we don’t know what something is), Tiantai suggests ambiguity is inherent to existence and distinctions. To be determinate requires relations to what something is not—and those relations make any finite thing necessarily ambiguous, appearing differently in different contexts without changing. This leads to the Buddhist notion of the “emptiness of emptiness.” Rather than a straight line to pure experience beyond concepts, Chinese Buddhist readings suggest the negation of negation brings us back to provisional reality—but transformed. As Ziporyn notes, once you say everything including nirvana is an illusion, the contrast between illusion and reality disappears. “Illusion” no longer functions as a put-down but [...] Read more at https://www.bryankam.com/p/samsara-is-nirvana-with-brook-ziporyn

    1h 16m
  3. The Math is Not the Territory, with Alex Gheorghiu

    09/26/2025

    The Math is Not the Territory, with Alex Gheorghiu

    Mathematics as MethodA Conversation with Alexander V. Gheorghiu Bryan Kam in conversation with Alex, assistant professor and a New Frontiers Fellow in the School of Electronics and Computer Science at the University of Southampton. As you'll hear in this podcast, my meeting with Alex Gheorghiu was random and fortuitous. In this podcast we discuss whether and how mathematics and logic relate to reality, why Buddhist thought challenges Western categories, and what Gödel's incompleteness theorem might mean for how we understand the world. Alex traces his intellectual development from teenage mathematical realism—the belief that mathematics describes the fundamental structure of reality—to his current anti-realist position. Through studying algebra and analysis during his degree, he came to the view that these mathematical tools are cultural constructs rather than discoveries about an objective reality "A model is just a model in the way that a map is never the land itself." Alex is also a Zen practitioner. We explored the famous Zen koan of Master Joshu, to the question of whether a dog has Buddha-nature. He responds "mu"—which neither affirms it nor denies it, but rather rejects the question. This exemplifies a philosophical move that transcends binary thinking, similar to how the Daodejing presents the Dao as preceding both unity and duality. We discuss how Chinese philosophy, lacking the Indo-European grammatical structures that equate existence and predication, developed fundamentally different approaches to how categories work. Through Michael Dummett's anti-realist philosophy, we explore how meaning emerges from use rather than correspondence to reality. This challenges millennia of Western philosophical assumptions about categories and definitions. The ancient tension between Parmenides (static being) and Heraclitus (dynamic becoming, which I've written about here) continues to shape philosophy today. We examine how Plato attempted to reconcile these positions through his theory of forms, and why this synthesis may have taken Western philosophy down a particular path—one that privileges nouns over verbs, objects over processes, and abstract categories over lived experience. Eugene Wigner's famous question—why mathematics works so unusually well in describing nature—dissolves when viewed through an anti-realist lens. If mathematics is a human tool rather than a discovery of reality's structure, its effectiveness becomes less mysterious and more a reflection of how we've shaped our tools to solve our problems. Alex shares his vision for bringing Gödel's incompleteness theorem into public consciousness the way physics has done with black holes. Having just won the 2025 Graham Hoare Prize for his essay, he argues that this "small technical result" has profound implications for how we understand the limits of formal systems and human knowledge itself. Alex Gheorghiu is an assistant professor at the University of Southampton and honorary fellow at University College London, working in logic with interests spanning philosophy of mathematics, theories of language, and the relationships between reasoning and reality. He's currently developing a mathematical account of Dummett's philosophy and working to make logic and mathematics accessible to wider audiences. Bryan Kam hosts the Clerestory podcast and is writing Neither/Nor, exploring how conceptual and experiential ways of knowing can inform both individual flourishing and our approach to philosophical problems. Recorded at Drake & Morgan, London, where philosophical work happens with "consistently low" productivity but high engagement.

    1h 15m
  4. Neither/Nor Paper Discussion

    06/24/2025

    Neither/Nor Paper Discussion

    In this podcast, I discuss the draft of the academic paper on Neither/Nor which I wrote about here, with my coauthor, developmental psychologist Dr. Isabela Granic. This paper has been a lot of work, and we discussed the writing right after finishing a major draft. In the paper and in our discussion, we emphasise the six principles of Neither/Nor. The article currently has an editor at Nature assessing the submission. Two Modes of Knowing: The first principle identifies the two distinct ways we learn about life — through concepts and experiences. These modes are complementary, and we consider them trainable skills. Neither should be privileged over the other. Commitment to Oscillation: Rather than selecting a definitive standpoint, we advocate for a dynamic process of oscillating between the conceptual and experiential skills, allowing us to adapt to the strengths of each mode. Process Over Static Entities: Our understanding should prioritise processes rather than fixed entities, recognising the ever-changing nature of knowledge as it evolves through interaction with the living world. Categories are useful, but we can’t allow them to become too static. Trial and Error Learning: Engage with the world through continuous experimentation, using trial and error to iteratively refine our understanding and approach — this is at the heart, for us, of adaptive learning. Social Construction of Knowledge: A recognition that all knowledge is inherently social. Our reason for wanting to know is always social. Knowledge itself is always culturally embedded. This is empowering, and allows to contextual flexibility, not relativism — some ways are more effective than others. Historicity: Understanding that knowledge and its acquisition grow from historical context gives us a holistic understanding of how changes occur in personal, cultural, and scientific pursuits. Would you like to read the paper? If so, you can request a copy of the pre-print here. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the conversation, please share it with someone! Please also consider supporting me on Patreon or Ko-Fi. Best, Bryan The Six Principles of Neither/NorWould you like to read it?

    1h 5m
  5. 05/05/2025

    Abstraction and its discontents, with Haneen Khan

    I’m Bryan Kam. I endeavour daily to make philosophy accessible and relevant. To that end I write this newsletter and host a podcast called Clerestory. I’m also writing a book called Neither/Nor and I’m a founding member of Liminal Learning. In London, I host a book club, a writing group, and other events. My work looks at how abstract concepts relate to embodied life, and how to use this understanding to transform experience. Recently, I had a conversation with Haneen Khan, a sex coach and fellow thinker, about the relationship between abstract thinking and embodied experience. The Nature of Abstraction and Experience We began by discussing the academic paper which Isabela Granic and I recently submitted, which describes my philosophy Neither/Nor. The paper and the forthcoming book focus on the relationship between experience and abstraction, or theory and practice. The paper critiques what we term “latent Platonism,” an unconscious tendency to prioritize abstract, theoretical constructs over direct, embodied experience. This can reveal itself in conversation, for example, when sharing about an uncomfortable experience can lead an interlocutor to leap to broad generalizations rather than discussing the experience itself. The Need for Balance and Awareness Throughout our conversation, we emphasized the importance of balancing abstract reasoning with experiential knowledge. Haneen and I agree that awareness is key — awareness of when we're gravitating too heavily towards abstraction at the expense of our felt experiences (or, less frequently, vice versa). Haneen shared valuable insights from her coaching practice, emphasizing the power of grounding practices that help individuals reconnect with their bodies and emotions. This balance, or oscillation as we’ve termed it, is crucial for a holistic understanding of the self. Abstraction, while powerful, can become a tool of escapism or avoidance if unanchored by embodied awareness. Maintaining a strong connection to one’s felt experience, on the other hand, can enrich not only personal wellbeing but also interpersonal interactions. Integration: A Path Forward We concluded by emphasizing integration — a synthesis of experiential and conceptual wisdom — as a winding path forward. This integration offers a potential solution to the pitfalls inherent in each mode of understanding when pursued in isolation. Concepts like Internal Family Systems Therapy illustrate such an integration, offering a framework where conceptual understanding aids emotional and physical awareness. I’d love to hear your thoughts and experiences on this topic: How do you navigate the balance between abstraction and experience in your daily life? Let me know in the comments. Bryan P.S. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who might benefit from it. Please also like it, subscribe, or support me on Patreon or Ko-Fi! A photo, not by me, of the place where we recorded the podcast, including the “fake grass” I mention

    1h 2m

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
3 Ratings

About

A podcast on philosophy. I'm interested in the origins of complexity, suffering, and selfhood. I'm now lucky to have conversations with amazing people, mostly on Eastern/Western philosophy. Early episodes are my monologues (with prose followed by poetry).