The End of Tourism

Chris Christou
  • 4.0 (16)
  • Places & Travel
  • Updated Biweekly

Welcome to the End of Tourism, a podcast about wanderlust, exile, and radical hospitality. For some, tourism can entail learning, freedom, and financial survival. For others, it means the loss of culture, land, and lineage. Our conversations explore the unauthorized histories and consequences of modern travel. They are dispatches from the resistance. Hosted by Chris Christou. chrischristou.substack.com

  1. 13h ago

    S7 #6 | Border Work | Tyson Yunkaporta

    Show Notes * Magpie Migrations * Making ceremony among tourists * From sacred entities to souvenirs * Lawful voyaging: the three pillars of ancestral travel * Culture-bound syndrome / sorry rocks * Telling story / experiencing the more-than-human * Sex tourism: The twisted impulses of sexual energy * If you don’t move with the land, the land will move you * Men’s and women’s business * Falling in love with travel Get full access to Chris Christou at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 9m

  2. Apr 22

    S7 #5 | Coastal Colonialism in Jamaica | Dr. Devon Taylor (JaBBEM)

    On this episode, my guest is Dr. Devon Taylor, the President of the Jamaica Beach Birthright Environmental Movement (JaBBEM), an advocacy group founded in 2022 that fights for equitable beach access and environmental justice in Jamaica. He is a Biomedical Research Scientist and environmental and social justice advocate who leads efforts to repeal the colonial-era Beach Control Act of 1956, which he describes as discriminatory and a barrier to public access. JABBEM uses legal tools, including the Prescription Act of 1882, to establish long-standing community rights to beaches and rivers. The group is currently involved in multiple court cases, including those concerning Bob Marley Beach, Little Dunn’s River, and Flanker/Providence Beach, to secure public access and prevent privatization by luxury resorts like Sandals. Dr. Taylor emphasizes that beach access is a fundamental human right and reparative justice issue, arguing that Jamaica’s beaches—national treasures—should be accessible to all Jamaicans, not just tourists. He calls for government action to replace outdated laws with modern legislation that ensures constitutional protection for public access and sustainable management of coastal resources. Show Notes * The violence and displacement from which JaBBEM emerged * The Beach Control Act of 1956 * Coastal colonialism / plantation tourism * Shoreline personhood and the birth of humanity * The medicinal space of the sea * Taking the fight to the courts in Jamaica * Pan-Caribbean solidarity and dilemmas * Critical mass: advice for guests/tourists Homework Jabbem - Website - Instagram - Facebook - YouTube Stronger Caribbean Together Transcript Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome Dr. Taylor, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for being willing to join me today. And I’m wondering to start, if you could share with our listeners where you’re sitting today and what the world looks like there for you where you are. Devon: Yeah. You know, funny enough, I’m sitting just outside of Washington, DC today. Chris: Oh. Devon: You know, I just got back from Jamaica. All right. And I’m just outside the capital of the “free world” today. Yeah, but Jamaica is home, so we just got back from some community service work, advocacy work. And I’m happy to engage the End of Tourism audience and share what the experience and the livity of the Jamaican people is like. Chris: Hmm. Thank you, Dr. Taylor. As far as I understand, you are the president of Jabbem, the Jamaica Beach Birthright [00:01:00] Environmental Movement, which was founded in 2022 as “a grassroots organization acutely aware of the adverse effects of misguided development and environmental injustices to beaches, beach property, and sensitive terrestrial ecosystems” And so I’d like to ask you, Devin, a bit about your story, about how and why Jabbem was created, if I can. Devon: Yeah. So my story is the story of my community - my community of Steer Town, a coastal community that I grew up in, but that’s also the story of the descendants of enslaved Africans, really, and a former slave plantation known as Jamaica, right? There’s a history that is rooted in displacement, disposition, and disempowerment of a people, you know. [00:02:00] So, Jabbem is a response to continued injustice, injustice not only to black bodies, you know what I mean? And the indigenous ones, the Tainos who were there first, right? But also the desecration of land, right? Land have a relationship with human beings and with indigenous people, and we have a relationship with land. But all that get disturbed, through this “development.” So, you know, myself, my community, experienced that displacement and disposition and disempowerment in 2019, at the heights of COVID. When our childhood beach that our community has been using for more than a hundred years, you know, we were displaced from it. And the displacement. It’s around 29 acres of beachfront land that the community... as an extension of our community that we use for everything, everything that Jamaicans use the beach [00:03:00] for, right? You know, recreation, fishing, spirituality, I mean, courtship, artisan work, farming you know all that space that offers a multitude of opportunities, multitude of possibilities, right, which made it that node, that connectivity to the community of Steer Town, to the community of Chalky Hill, to the community of Epworth and Davis Town and, you know, parts of, and tourism mecca of Ocho Rios. You know what I mean? This is what this space represented. It was a community that birthed ideas and continual livity of our people. And we were displaced from it, displaced from it by force. You know, a force that was part of the state, the Jamaican police, private security, the political class. It was violent. It was a very [00:04:00] violent displacement. And so, if you have ever experienced disposition and displacement, it unsettles you. It arms you. You know, I mean, you are rattled, right? And so, we had to figure out how this happened and how we need to move, because we’re a resilient people, we never give up. This is where we’re able to survive 500 years of chattel slavery. So, it took us a minute to kinda understand what was happening and knowing that we have to move from the grassroots. We have to come together in solidarity and farm something that could push back at our displacement. So Jabbem was born through state-sponsored violence and private violence, the displacement of communities from beach ecosystems, from the sea, in that time. Chris: Thank you for that, Dr. Taylor. You know, you mentioned 2019 as a kind [00:05:00] of watershed moment for your community and for the creation of Jabbem. But of course most people have some understanding that the tourism industry has a long history on the island, in Jamaica. And there’s something that arises quite a bit in the work of your organization and in the interviews and in the media that’s come out, and specifically around a law that was created or enacted in 1956, The Beach Control Act in Jamaica. And so, I’m wondering if you would be willing to offer up a little bit about this law, why it’s so infamous in your country and maybe a little something of what was happening in Jamaica before 2019 and perhaps since that act, that law was created in the fifties. Devon: Yeah. The struggle for beach rights, you know, access to the beaches use of the sea [00:06:00] is historical, right? There are giants before my time who stood in the fight. You know what I mean? We had Dr. Carolyn Cooper, you know what I mean, very instrumental. John Maxwell. We have Kabu Ma’at Kheru. We have Esther Figueroa and many other Jamaicans who lend their voice to a struggle, observing and seeing that, with every new hotel that’s built, every new villa that’s built, every new guest house that’s built, is a loss of the Jamaican people to really continue to enjoy spaces that they have been doing since childhood. Right. You know, as you mentioned, there’s a long history of tourism in Jamaica. Yes, there is. I mean, Jamaica is still a colony of England. The King Charles is still the king of Jamaica, right? With all that said, Jamaica does have its prime minister who runs the country, and the king don’t really get in his way, so all the experiences of the Jamaican people now is [00:07:00] actually a product of the political class that is running the country. And the tourism model at one point was more integrated, right? There was more a blend of locals and visitors traversing in beaches and enjoying these spaces, walking around in the country, participating in other cultural activities that are not based along the beach, right? You would come into villages, enjoy villages. You know, that was true for, also, my community. My community was close to a couple of these hotels and guest houses at the time. Many members in our community work in these spaces. Some of those tourists would venture up into the village and enjoy all that we offer, you know, in the Jamaican life. I should point out that musical albums, between Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones was made with members of of the Steer Town community. “Wingless Angel” is the name of that album. So this was a time when it was more [00:08:00] of that kind of integration. But the colony that Jamaica is right, and just pre-independence, Jamaica became independent in 1962... a law was passed in 1956 just on the eve of independence, which you alluded to earlier - The Beach Control Act of 1956 - and we’re still trying to fully grasp why there was a need to put a law in place that says that no Jamaicans have the right to the foreshore, or the floor of the sea and was translated by the head of the National Environment and Planning A gency (NEPA), that we do not have the right to swim, to bathe, to fish, to walk along the foreshore. All those rights are vested in the government, in what they basically call “the crown,” controls all that kind of things. And the thinking we are trying to understand, is that the [00:09:00] result is very clear, that it’s stripped us of any inherent rights to the foreshore. Stripped us. And very important for accessing beaches is the rights, the land. So you cannot get to the beach or the sea without traversing land. Chris: Right. Devon: And so this legislation, really inherently, did not give us any land rights. And that is what you know happened post-emancipation. There was never any reparative justice around the rights of descendants of enslaved Africans to land, where compensation was given to the enslavers. They got millions and millions of dollars when slavery was abolished. There was no compensation to the descendants in any form. No rights to land, no distribution of land, nothing [00:10:00] that was constitutionally put in place, nothing for provisions were made. In fact, the secretary of the islands made sure that they put tariffs so high on governm

    48 min

  3. Mar 18

    S7 #4 | The Sufi Guest House | Kerim Güç (Kerim Vakfı)

    On this episode, my guest is Hasan Kerim Güç. Kerim graduated from Istanbul High School in 1992 and from Yildiz Technical University in 1996. Between 1997-2004, he completed his master's degree in Information Systems and Business Administration in Baltimore, USA. He returned to Turkey in 2010. Realizing that the treasure he had been looking for for 14 years was right in his own home, he took the position of Chief Editor at Nefes Publishing House in 2014. Kerim nourishes his business life with Sufi studies and is pursuing a doctoral degree from the Usküdar University Institute for Sufi Studies. He has published four books. Show Notes * Rejecting the American Dream * Anatolian and Sufi Hospitality * Sufis and the Ottomans * Tanri misafiri (“God’s guest”) * Togetherness, and the roots of Religion * When we welcome suffering, we make honey out of pain * Submission, servants and the prophet Mohammed * The Conference of the Birds / Stories from the Thirty Birds * Limits to hospitality in the Islamic world * Bereket / Baraka * Rumi’s Guest House Homework * Kerim Vakfı * Stories from the Thirty Birds * Cemalnur Sargut: A Sufi Life of Love, Suffering, and Divine Union * Cemalnur Sargut Books * Kerim Guc - Instagram * Kyoto University Kenan Rifai Center for Sufi Studies * Ken’an Rifâî Chair of Islamic Studies at Peking University * University of North Carolina (UNC) Ken’an Rifâî Chair in Islamic Studies Transcript Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the End of Tourism podcast, Kerim. Hoș geldiniz. Kerim: Thank you very much for having me. Chris: Yeah, it’s my pleasure. Thank you for joining me today. Perhaps you could tell our listeners, where you find yourself and what the world looks like there for you. Kerim: Well, first of all, I’m an immigrant also. I was an immigrant. I lived in the US for a while, and then I came back to to my own country. And things are very different here than there, than it is in US. From the perspective of what I did... I was actually an engineer, and I was working in the IT fields, and I was living the American dream, and then I realized that there was some kind of an emptiness, and this whole thing, and I decided to go back to Turkey and [00:01:00] study Sufism, and since my mother was actually a Sufi teacher. She decided to actually move this whole Sufism into academia. So, she basically established an institute in Istanbul - Üsküdar Istanbul - at the University of Üsküdar. The difference between this institute and the other schools, the people like myself, like engineers, coming from different disciplines, including lawyers and whatnot, they were not able to do their masters or PhDs in Sufism, because in other universities, they require for you to actually have theology backgrounds. But with this new establishment, we were able to educate people from all different disciplines and, [00:02:00] so we basically concentrated on ethics rather than the religion itself. So, a lot of people coming from different areas, especially the white-collar people, living this, like - how do I say that? - it’s a world of money and materialism and all kind of that stuff. They’re coming to our institute and realizing that money or career is not the only goal for life. And we started to concentrating on things like spirituality more than the materialist world. Chris: Thank you. Well, I’m very much looking forward to exploring these themes with you and a little bit of the work that you do with Kerim Vakfı. Kerim: Sure. Chris: And so for the last season of the podcast, I’m very much interested in focusing on different hospitality traditions and practices from around the [00:03:00] world, as I mentioned to you. And, one of the key themes of the podcast is radical hospitality. Now, the word “radical” comes from Latin and it means “rooted,” or we might even say “local” or “living.” And so. I’m curious if there are any radical hospitality practices that you think are unique to your place, to Istanbul, or to the Sufi community that you might be willing to share with us today? Kerim: Well, Istanbul, actually, is a very metropolitan city. So like the other metropolitan cities, we kind of lost that - what we call the hospitality of Anatolia. Anatolia is basically the Eastern part of Istanbul. And in Istanbul, we have, right now, 25 million people in a very small area. And in older days when the population was smaller, [00:04:00] we were able to show our hospitality, because the Turkish hospitality is very famous, actually. In this area the hospitality is very famous, including the, you know, Greek and Arab hospitality. Usually, it’s a little bit different than the western countries. For instance, we welcome people - we used to, and probably still, in the countryside - the people coming from other cities or countries or whatnot. The locals actually helped them out as much as possible. They even invite them to their own houses and let them stay for how long they want to stay. And this was kind of like a regular thing in the old days. It’s still going on very much in the eastern side of Turkey, pretty much in the countryside. [00:05:00] But Istanbul, like other cosmopolitan cities, we kinda lost that. You know, neighbourly things. We have a lot of neighbours and we we have always good... we used to have a lot of good relationship with them, but nowadays, again, because of this material world, we kind of lost this hospitality. So from the Sufi point of view, hospitality is very important. It’s interesting that you mentioned the “radical.” You were talking about where “radical” come from, but you didn’t talk about where “hospitality” comes from. See, there is a relationship between the hospital and the hospitality and the way the Sufis look at things is very much like the illnesses in our body are our guests. So, we don’t think that they’re bad for you. They’re actually [00:06:00] the guests of our house for a time being. So we show them the hospitality as much as we can, and then hopefully we say goodbye to them. Chris: Wow. Wow. That’s fascinating. I do know that the term “hospitality,” hospital is part of that, and hospital historically came from these notions of hospitality. I mean, in the western world in, and at least in the Christian world, there’s a kind of unauthorized history in which a lot of this hospitality, as you mentioned, that was offered to the stranger, was done by the families or the individual houses or homes within a community. A stranger would come and they would ask for hospitality, ask for food and shelter, and the family would have to decide whether to do that and how to do it. [00:07:00] And then at some point, the institution of the Church kind of stepped in and said, “you know what? You don’t have to do this anymore. When the stranger comes to the community, when they show up at your door, just send them to us. Just send them to the church and we’ll give them what they need.” And so this did a number of things, but the two most obvious ones, I think, are that the family, the individuals in the family and the community on a grassroots level, slowly ended up losing their ability, their unique kind of familial or personal ability to host the stranger. And at the same time, of course, the church used this as a way to try to convert, the stranger. Kerim: Right. Chris: And so I’m curious if there’s anything in that realm that you see in the Islamic world, maybe in the Sufi world... you mentioned that, since the [00:08:00] imposition of modernity and the industrial Revolution in the world, we see less and less possibilities for small-scale, grassroots hospitality between people, in part, because there’s so much movement, and of course, because the hospital has its brothers and sisters in the sense of the “hotel” and the “hostel.” Kerim: Absolutely. Chris: So, I’m curious if there’s anything like that that comes to mind for you in regards to the Islamic world. Kerim: Well, one thing is about like the Ottomans. The Ottomans, when they were coming from the Anatolia and then started conquering all those places in the Balkan area, Greece and Bulgaria, Hungary and all those places, after they actually conquered, they sent Sufis to those places. And, like in Hungary, there is a person, his name is [00:09:00] Gül Baba, which means “Rose Father.” That’s what they call him. He actually has his own tekke (tekke is like a church for Sufis). And this place, it’s like a school more, more like a school, but it’s a religious school. And in this tekke, he actually finds all those people with needs, and he pretty much helped them out with all those needs. And the people coming from different religions, they actually started liking people like from the Turks’ point of view, because the Turks were symbolized by these Sufi movements. And instead of, you know, pushing people to convert or demolishing the churches and rebuilding mosques and stuff. Instead of that, they actually [00:10:00] welcomed people from all over the world, or all over the place, basically, to stay in the tekke, to eat and to get education in the tekke. So this was a great strategy of Ottomans. That’s how they actually stayed in Europe for almost like 600 years. So that was very much like, you know, their strategy, I think. And in a good way. Chris: Yeah, you know, in my research I found out that there’s still Sufi orders in the Balkans a group called the Bektashi. Kerim: Right. Chris: And of course, with the very little historical understanding that I had, I was very surprised. I had no idea. But of course, when I eventually went to visit the regions that my father is from, I saw churches, synagogues, and mosques, all in the same little neighbourhoods. [00:11:00] So, quite an impressive kind of understanding that the major religions in those places could coexist for so long. And that in the context of someone who grew up in No

    44 min

  4. Feb 18

    S7 #3 | Gentrification: Intersectionality & Invisibility | Leslie Kern

    On this episode, my guest is Leslie Kern, PhD, the author of three books about cities, including Gentrification Is Inevitable And Other Lies and Feminist City: Claiming Space in a Man-Made World. Her work provokes new ways of thinking about and creating cities that are more just, equitable, caring, and sustainable. Leslie was an associate professor of geography and environment and women’s and gender studies at Mount Allison University from 2009-2024. Today, she is a public speaker, writer, and career coach for authors and academics. Show Notes * Gentrification and touristification * Naturalization of gentrification * The new colonialism * Intersectionality * Who’s to blame: renter or landlord? * The hipster and the safety net * The invisible face behind gentrification and touristifcation * Transactionality or hospitality? The case of Airbnb * Commercial gentrification * The right to stay put Homework Leslie Kern - Website - Instagram Gentrification Is Inevitable and Other Lies - USA - Canada Feminist City: Claiming Space in a Man-Made World - USA - Canada Higher Expectations: How to Survive Academia, Make it Better for Others, and Transform the University The Tenant Class by Ricardo Tranjan Transcript Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Leslie, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for taking time out of your day, to speak with me. Thank you. To begin, I’m wondering if you’d be willing to tell us where you find yourself today and what the world looks like there, for you. Leslie: Sure. I find myself in Cambridge, Ontario. It’s a city of about 130,000 people. If I looked out my window right now, I would see a lot of blowing snow. It’s about minus 27 Celsius with the windchill, or something hideous like that today, so taking the time to talk to you this morning means I don’t have to go out and shovel anything just yet. So. Chris: Well, thank you. Thank you for joining us. it’s a great honour and I’m really looking forward to this conversation that bears a great deal of complexity. So, I had invited you on the pod in part to explore your book, Gentrification is Inevitable and Other Lies. And [00:01:00] in it, Leslie, you write that “Gentrification has come to be used as a metaphor for processes of mainstreaming, commodification, appropriation, and upscaling that are not necessarily or directly connected to cities. In this story about gentrification, gentrification stands in for any sort of change that pulls a thing or a practice out of its original context and increases its popularity, priciness, and profit-making potential.” Given that some of our listeners might not have heard of the term “gentrification” before, although I doubt it, but given that those who have heard it might understand it also to be what you and others refer to as a “chaotic concept,” I’m wondering if you’d be willing to take a stab at defining it for us today? Leslie: Yeah, absolutely. If we [00:02:00] look to, I guess, a kind of typical scholarly definition of gentrification, it would be describing an urban process in which middle or upper class, or in some other way, privileged households start to move into a neighbourhood or area of the city that has historically been more working class, or perhaps an immigrant neighbourhood, perhaps more industrial, and begin to remake that neighbourhood, kind of in their own image, thus driving up housing prices both in the rental and ownership markets, driving up the cost of living in the area, and critically, as part of the definition, resulting in some level of displacement of the older inhabitants of that neighbourhood. “Displacement” meaning they’ve been kind of priced out or otherwise pushed directly or indirectly to leave and [00:03:00] move to some other neighbourhood. So, typically with gentrification, the definition is centred around it being a class-based process, but in more recent decades, many scholars, myself included, have wanted to broaden that and to acknowledge that other axes of power and privilege, for example, race, gender, ability, age, sexuality, and so on, also play a role in contributing to the kinds of forces that propel gentrification. And we can maybe get into some of that later. So for myself, in the book, I talk about gentrification as “any kind of process of taking over claiming space and remaking it in the image and for the interests and benefit of a more powerful group of people, or perhaps even corporations, to some extent.” So, [00:04:00] gentrification is really the process of taking and claiming space. And I also do include displacement as part of that process, although I also acknowledge that sometimes people can be kind of psychologically displaced, even if they aren’t necessarily physically pushed out of their neighbourhoods. Chris: Mean it’s something that I was noticing in Toronto before I left and moved and migrated here to Oaxaca. It’s something that I think in the last five or ten years has become an unfortunate mainstay of city life in the vast majority of places, of urban places in the world. And this is also something that I’ve seen quite a bit here in Oaxaca, Mexico in a somewhat prolific tourist destination. And so, in places that have [00:05:00] been deemed “destinations” in this way, there’s often a kind of reductionism, here anyways, and in other tourist destinations in which gentrification and what’s sometimes called touristification is confused. And so one definition of “touristification” is simply “the process of transformation of a place into a tourist space and its associated effects.” So a kind of very vague and broad definition. But we also understand that gentrification can happen in places that aren’t necessarily tourist destinations. And so, we’ve also discussed in the pod the possibility that a place doesn’t necessarily need tourists in it to have touristic qualities or context what we might say. [00:06:00] And so I’m curious for you, do you think it’s important to distinguish the two concepts, gentrification and touristification? And if so, why? Leslie: Yeah, great question. I think a distinction, to some extent, is important in that, yeah, there may be elements of touristification, for example, that are somewhat unique to that process, especially in terms of the kind of impact that it might have on local inhabitants who may not necessarily be displaced, but who may see their everyday lives kind of radically altered by the touristification of an area. And as you say, gentrification happens in all kinds of areas, many of which are not geared to tourism, although sometimes that is a kind of later effect of gentrification, is that tourists might be drawn to certain neighbourhoods or places that they would not have otherwise gone to in the past. As [00:07:00] you mentioned in your earlier question, there’s been some concern in the gentrification literature that it’s a bit of a chaotic concept, by which it is meant that it’s maybe too broad of an umbrella [term], and so many different kinds of processes are kind of lumped together under that umbrella. I think it’s a useful umbrella, but under that umbrella, we can try to be clear about what we’re talking about when we look at particular locations, and try to articulate the impacts that these processes are having on the local community, economy, environment, and so on. Chris: Thank you, Leslie. Thank you for that. So your book is broken up into chapters that reveal the deeper realities behind the tropes or lies sometimes spouted about gentrification. And there are often many. And so I’m curious if after having done the research and writing for this book, and it was published in [00:08:00] 2022, so perhaps there’s been some deeper reflection in that regard, I’m curious what you feel might be the most important lie about gentrification that requires our attention and why? Leslie: Ooh, really putting me on the hook to like pick a favorite child there. No, I’m joking. Ultimately, I mean, I guess the most straightforward answer would be the first one that I discuss in the book, which is right there in the book’s title, which is the idea that gentrification is inevitable. And we can kind of unpack that a little bit further, as I do in the kind of first main chapter of the book, which is to say that in some accounts of gentrification, it’s presented as a sort of natural process, right? As something that is just akin to evolution, for example. So there’s this idea that if you kind of start with, for example, a working class or immigrant [00:09:00] neighbourhood, lower income community, with some other kinds of attributes that might not make it seem wealthy or desirable, that over time, just through, I don’t know, a kind of mystical series of properties, the way that species evolve or human beings develop from fetus and baby to an adult through this series of difficult to trace impacts, that somehow it just happens. Right. And of course, the problem with that, again, is that if we think it’s natural, then we don’t really think there’s any way to stop it. And also when we describe something as “natural,” we often imbue it with positive qualities. Well, if it’s “natural,” it’s just meant to happen. It’s just the way things are. And why would we want to stand in the way of that process? From a kind of political standpoint, it becomes very problematic, because it means that there’s not really a [00:10:00] willingness perhaps on the part of those who have some power and influence to slow down gentrification, to pause it, to use whatever tools they might have in their kind of legislative toolbox to create guardrails around the process happening or to try to prevent it altogether. And from a kind of community response standpoint, it can be very disempowering to believe that gentrification is inevitable, unstoppable, that once you see those first, white, middle-class families move into yo

    1h 2m

  5. Jan 21

    S7 #2 | Animism, Healing and Psychedelic Tourism | Adam Aronovich (Healing From Healing)

    Show Notes Adam’s doctoral thesis and time in the Amazon Iatrogenesis and Healing Culture Epistemic Humility Our Traumadelic Stories Clash in Understandings of Causation Disneyfication of Plant Medicine Individual vs Relational Healing Psychedelic Tourism’s Local Consequences Spirit Realm Fallout Animistic Perspective Narrative, Cults, and Conspirituality Get full access to Chris Christou at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 28m

  6. Jan 15 ·  Bonus

    #0.7 | Myth and Mythos

    On this episode, we dive into the podcast pillar of myth and mythos. How do old myths such as the Odyssey or the Bible inform how we move even if we’ve never read them? To what extent can we understand how myth and all that roots it arise to incline us toward certain ways of travelling? If we can readjust our sight in order to recognize the mythic ground of being we walk upon, could we then walk differently, organizing other ways of travel that serve, rather than starve the world? Get full access to Chris Christou at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

    6 min

  7. 09/23/2025

    S7 #1 | Ritual Relationships: Matrimony, Hospitality and Strangerhood | Stephen Jenkinson (Orphan Wisdom)

    On this episode, my guest is Stephen Jenkinson, culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. Stephen is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony. He is the author of several influential books, including Money and the Soul’s Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), A Generation’s Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), and Reckoning (2022), co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson. His most recent book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart’s Work, was released in August 2025. He is also involved in the musical project Nights of Grief & Mystery with singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins, which has toured across North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. Show Notes: * The Bone House of the Orphan Wisdom Enterprise * Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart’s Work * The Wedding Industry * Romantic Sameness and Psychic Withering * The Two Tribes * The Roots of Hospitality * The Pompous Ending of Hospitality * Debt, And the Estrangement of the Stranger * More Than Human Hospitality * The Alchemy of the Orphan Wisdom School Homework: Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart’s Work | Purchase Orphan Wisdom The Scriptorium: Echoes of an Orphan Wisdom Transcription: Chris: This is an interview that I've been wondering about for a long time in part, because Stephen was the first person I ever interviewed for the End of Tourism Podcast. In Oaxaca, Mexico, where I live Stephen and Natalie were visiting and were incredibly, incredibly generous. Stephen, in offering his voice as a way to raise up my questions to a level that deserve to be contended with. We spoke for about two and a half hours, if I remember correctly. And there was a lot in what you spoke to towards the second half of the interview that I think we're the first kind of iterations of the Matrimony book. We spoke a little bit about the stranger and trade, and it was kind of startling as someone trying to offer their first interview and suddenly hearing something [00:01:00] that I'd never heard before from Stephen. Right. And so it was quite impressive. And I'm grateful to be here now with y'all and to get to wonder about this a little more deeply with you Stephen. Stephen: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Chris: This is also a special occasion for the fact that for the first time in the history of the podcast, we have a live audience among us today. Strange doings. Some scholars and some stewards and caretakers of the Orphan Wisdom enterprise. So, thank you all as well for coming tonight and being willing to listen and put your ears to this. And so to begin, Stephen, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let those who will be listening to this recording later on know where we're gathered in tonight? Stephen: Well, we're in... what's the name of this township? Nathalie: North Algona. Stephen: North Algona township on the borders, an eastern gate [00:02:00] of Algonquin Park. Strangely named place, given the fact that they were the first casualties of the park being established. And we're in a place that never should have been cleared - my farm. It should never have been cleared of the talls, the white pines that were here, but the admiralty was in need back in the day. And that's what happened there. And we're in a place that the Irish immigrants who came here after the famine called "Tramore," which more or less means "good-frigging luck farming." It doesn't technically mean that, but it absolutely means that. It actually means "sandy shore," which about covers the joint, and it's the only thing that covers the joint - would be sand. You have to import clay. Now, that's a joke in many farming places in the world, but if we wanted any clay, we'd have to bring it in and pay for the privilege. And the farm has been in [00:03:00] my, my responsibility for about 25 years now, pretty close to that. And the sheep, or those of them left because the coyotes have been around for the first time in their casualty-making way... They're just out here, I'm facing the field where they're milling around. And it's the very, very beginnings of the long cooling into cold, into frigid, which is our lot in this northern part of the hemisphere, even though it's still August, but it's clear that things have changed. And then, we're on a top of a little hill, which was the first place that I think that we may have convened a School here. It was a tipi, which is really worked very well considering we didn't live here, so we could put it up and put it down in the same weekend. [00:04:00] And right on this very hill, we were, in the early days, and we've replaced that tipi with another kind of wooden structure. A lot more wood in this one. This has been known as "The Teaching Hall" or "The Great Hall," or "The Hall" or "The Money Pit, as it was known for a little while, but it actually worked out pretty well. And it was I mean, people who've come from Scandinavia are knocked out by the kind of old-style, old-world visitation that the place seems to be to them. And I'd never really been before I had the idea what this should look like, but I just went from a kind of ancestral memory that was knocking about, which is a little different than your preferences, you know. You have different kinds of preferences you pass through stylistically through your life, but the ones that lay claim to you are the ones that are not interested in your [00:05:00] preferences. They're interested in your kind of inheritance and your lineage. So I'm more or less from the northern climes of Northern Europe, and so the place looks that way and I was lucky enough to still have my carving tools from the old days. And I've carved most of the beams and most of the posts that keep the place upright with a sort of sequence of beasts and dragons and ne'er-do-wells and very, very few humans, I think two, maybe, in the whole joint. Something like that. And then, mostly what festoons a deeply running human life is depicted here. And there's all kinds of stories, which I've never really sat down and spoken to at great length with anybody, but they're here. And I do deeply favour the idea that one day [00:06:00] somebody will stumble into this field, and I suppose, upon the remains of where we sit right now, and wonder "What the hell got into somebody?" That they made this mountain of timber moldering away, and that for a while what must have been, and when they finally find the footprint of, you know, its original dimensions and sort of do the wild math and what must have been going on in this sandy field, a million miles in away from its home. And wherever I am at that time, I'll be wondering the same thing. Audience: Hmm. Stephen: "What went on there?" Even though I was here for almost all of it. So, this was the home of the Orphan Wisdom School for more than a decade and still is the home of the Orphan Wisdom School, even if it's in advance, or in retreat [00:07:00] or in its doldrums. We'll see. And many things besides, we've had weddings in here, which is wherein I discovered "old-order matrimony," as I've come to call it, was having its way with me in the same way that the design of the place did. And it's also a grainery for our storage of corn. Keep it up off the ground and out of the hands of the varmints, you know, for a while. Well that's the beginning. Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Thank you Stephen. Stephen: Mm-hmm. Chris: You were mentioning the tipi where the school began. I remember sleeping in there the first time I came here. Never would I have thought for a million years that I'd be sitting here with you. Stephen: It's wild, isn't it? Chris: 12 years later. ?: Yeah. Chris: And so next, I'd like to do my best in part over the course of the next perhaps hour or two to congratulate you on the release of [00:08:00] your new book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work. Stephen: Thank you. Chris: Mm-hmm. I'm grateful to say like many others that I've received a copy and have lent my eyes to your good words, and what is really an incredible achievement. For those who haven't had a chance to lay their eyes on it just yet, I'm wondering if you could let us in on why you wrote a book about matrimony in our time and where it stands a week out from its publication. Stephen: Well, maybe the answer begins with the question, "why did you write a book, having done so before?" And you would imagine that the stuff that goes into writing a book, you'd think that the author has hopes for some kind of redemptive, redeeming outcome, some kind of superlative that drops out the back end of the enterprise. And you know, this is [00:09:00] the seventh I've written. And I would have to say that's not really how it goes, and you don't really know what becomes of what you've written, even with the kind people who do respond, and the odd non-monetary prize that comes your way, which Die Wise gamed that. But I suppose, I wrote, at all partly to see what was there. You know, I had done these weddings and I was a little bit loathe to let go, to let the weddings turn entirely into something historical, something that was past, even though I probably sensed pretty clearly that I was at the end of my willingness to subject myself to the slings and arrows that came along with the enterprise, but it's a sweet sorrow, or there's a [00:10:00] wonder that goes along with the tangle of it all. And so, I wrote to find out what happened, as strange as that might sound to you. You can say, "well, you were there, you kind of knew what happened." But yes, I was witness to the thing, but there's the act of writing a book gives you the opportunity to sort of

    1h 49m

  8. 06/26/2025

    S6 #8 | El Derecho a No Migrar | Aldo Gonzalez y Gloria Romero Lopez

    Estimados oyentes, esta entrevista requirió que Aldo y Gloria se conectaran desde zonas rurales. Por lo tanto, la conexión a internet fue intermitente. Hay algunos momentos del episodio en los que puede resultar difícil comprender lo que se dice. Para mayor claridad, consulten la transcripción abajo. Gracias por su comprensión. Mis entrevistados en este episodio son Aldo Gonzalez y Gloria Romero López. Aldo es zapoteco de la comunidad de Guelatao de Juárez, Oaxaca, México. Ingeniero de formación, promueve el pleno reconocimiento y la implementación de los derechos de los pueblos indígenas. Trabaja en defensa de la biodiversidad local del maíz, especialmente de una variedad de maíz autofertilizante llamada olotón. Gloria es una mujer Mixteca que nacio en Lázaro Cardenas, Coicoyan de las Flores, Juxtlahuaca, Oaxaca. Curse sus estudios de ingeniería en Tecnologías de la información y comunicaciones en el Instituto Tecnológico Superior - San Miguel el Grande. Actualmente Realizó registros de Nacimientos en el Municipio de Coicoyan de las Flores. Ella gusta mucho platicar en Mixteco. Notas del Episodio * Las consecuencias al pueblo * El derecho a no migrar * Cambios atraves del NAFTA y el derecho a no migrar * “Yo tengo maiz, no necessito dinero” * La complejidad de las remesas * Las contradicciones y discriminaciones entre migrantes * La posibilidad del retorno masivo de migrantes * La violencia como causa de migracion Tarea El Derecho a No Migrar (Libro) - Amazon El DERECHO A PERMANECER EN CASA Transcripcion en espanol (English Below) Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenido Aldo y bienvenida Gloria al podcast al fin de turismo. Gracias a ambos por estar dispuestos a hablar conmigo hoy sobre estos temas. Tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes dos se están bien dispuestos a ofrecer una pequeña introducción o resumen sobre ustedes mismos. Ah, ado, no te escuchamos. Aldo: Bueno sobre mis viajes, bueno, no me dedico a viajar. Casi no tengo vacaciones. Pero por las cuestiones del trabajo me he tocado ir a diferentes lugares del mundo. Podríamos decir. Este básicamente por el trabajo que realizo? Más que ir a conocer los lugares a donde a donde me han invitado, lo que he hecho es ir a platicar con la gente que está en esos lugares sobre los problemas que tenemos aquí en la región. Los problemas que tenemos en México y [00:01:00] quien lo que me ha posibilitado, poder viajar a distintas partes ha sido el problema de la contaminación del maize transgénicos. Entonces eso ha hecho que, con esa bronca que peso en el año 2001, este yo haya tenido la posibilidad de ir a otros lugares a platicar un poco sobre ese problema en particular y muchos otros que se relacionan con él no o el tema de los transgénicos o el tema de los agroquímicos o el tema de el control de las corporaciones hacia la alimentación, hacia las semillas también. Entonces, digamos que en general, la mayoría de los viajes que yo he realizado están relacionados con estos acentos o con los derechos de los pueblos indígenas también. Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Y nos podrías decir donde te encuentres hoy? Aldo: Eh? Bueno, hoy estoy en Guelatao y es mi comunidad y estoy en las oficinas de la organización de mi organización, que es la unión de organizaciones de la Sierra Juarez Chris: Muchas gracias, [00:02:00] audo Aldo y gloria. Gloria: Sí, igual. Yo casi no he salido así del estado, pero sí conozco mucha gente que si emigra por lo regular a los estados unidos, es que es donde la mayoría de acá, pero casi no emigran mucho así hacia otros estados. Pero si la mayoría emigra para estados unidos, ya si tengo muchos vecinos, familia y mucho de acá de Coycoyan, si emigran más para allá que son para los estados unidos. Chris: Muy bien. Muchas gracias por eh, a tiempo con nosotros hoy. Entonces, aunque es temprano en la conversación, mi pregunta es sobre cómo han visto que el regreso de los migrantes a sus pueblos ha afectado a la comunidad en sus propios lugares o pueblos? Gloria: Sí en en cuando han cómo ha afectado la comunidad? Que muchos cuando regresan, pues ya tienen otras ideas, otras cultura, otra forma de ver la vida y a veces mucho ya no [00:03:00] quieren este participar así en las asambleas de la comunidad o ya vienen con otras técnicas, digamos, de cultivo y las técnicas que anteriormente habían acá, pues ya se van perdiendo y yo más cada veo como también esto afecta también en sus vidas personales, porque muchos cuando regresan ya regresan ya enfermos, cansados. En en el mejor de los casos, muchos ya regresan con dinero, no? Y eso hace que la gente que está en el pueblo, ve que como ellos les fue bien, pues también quieren emigrar y ya después ya son más personas que quieren migrar y ya se se hacen más y de idea de que, pues allá en estados unidos existe la oportunidad de que puedan mejorar sus vidas. Pero yo digo que así en ,general el impacto es un tanto positivo como [00:04:00] también negativo, porque igual, como digo, muchos regresan ya cansados, enfermos. Muchos igual dejan aquí sus familiares y cuanto regresan, pues sus familia ya no los encuentran, o algunos que dejan sus papás, cuando regresan sus papás ya, ya murieron o ha o esas situaciones que impacta así su vida personal. Chris: Gracias, Gloria. Aldo, querrías responder? Aldo: Aunque aquí en la comunidad de Guelatao, no hay muchos, no hay una migración tan alta como en otras comunidades cercanas. Digamos que una de las cosas que nosotros vemos que ha afectado, es que se elevan los precios, porque traen dinero, ya no trabajan en el campo. Entonces, para sus familias reciben recursos. Y pues eso hace que ellos tengan mayor capacidad para poder pagar a los mozos, por ejemplo, para que vayan a ser la [00:05:00] misma. Entonces, eso hace que el resto de la población pues se sienta afectada, porque no tiene los recursos para poder pagar lo que está pagando un migrante. Bueno, eso en alguna medida, está afectando la producción también de maíz, de por sí, ya la había afectado, porque muchos salen y dejan de trabajar la tierra. Los que quieren que se siga trabajando la tierra por parte de su familia mandan recursos, pero digamos que allí los costos se elevan para el resto de la población porque ellos pagan salarios más altos. Entonces, si alguien viene a la comunidad a trabajar, te va a cobrar más de lo que te cobraba anteriormente y muchos no lo pueden pagar. Entonces nos dice, "ya no voy a sembrar, porque el mozo está muy caro." No? Y eso es una afectación, pues directa, digamos a la economía de quien no migra. Y como hay pocos migrantes también, o digo [00:06:00] como hay poca gente que se que que se queda trabajar el campo en la comunidad, ya no hay suficientes personas para que se pueda hacer lo que nosotros llamamos gozona. O sea que vayamos entre todos a trabajar la parcela de cada uno de los que entran a ese tipo de trabajo. Bueno, también, eso es una afectación por la migración. No? Chris: Y Gloria, tú piensas que esa misma dinámica existe o ha pasaron en tu pueblo? Gloria: No, yo digo que igual, sí, estoy de acuerdo con lo que dicen algo y si sí, ha influenciado mucho de las personas que emigran si pagan más que los que no migran. Sí, si se ve mucho ese cambio. Chris: Gracias. Este pues parte de mi mi interés o cómo empecé, eh, acercándome a la cuestión de inmigración fue en parte por mi familia. [00:07:00] También eran migrantes de Macedonia y Grecia, y el otro lado de Inglaterra hacia Canadá hace como 50 años. Entonces este lo que he sentido, es que las dinámicas, las consecuencias de la migración en los pueblos y la gente que no migren, que hay patrones en el nivel mundial, y son casi bueno, muy parecidos. . Encontré un un libro en inglés, pero también existía en español. Eh? Que se llama El Derecho A No M igrar o The Right To Stay Home por David Bacon. Y ese libro, es titulado por una declaración que la gente de FIOB o La Frente Indígena de Organizaciones Binacionales hicieron en ahí en Santiago Juxtlahuaca en La Mixteca, Después de días de días de discutir sobre las [00:08:00] consecuencias de migraciones en los lugares de los migrantes, o sea, los pueblos originarios de los migrantes, resultó una declaración: "el derecho a no migrar conjunto con el derecho a migrar." Entonces tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes podrían hablar sobre esos tiempos y la declaración, si saben cómo se formó o cómo se fue recibida en la mixteca o en la sierra norte de Oaxaca. Aldo: Bueno, nosotros aquí en la organización. Sí, hemos hablado del derecho a no migrar, porque estamos interesados en fortalecer la identidad de las personas que vivimos en nuestras comunidades. Pues, al final, somos parte de un pueblo más grande. No solamente es nuestra comunidad, sino que hay varias otras comunidades que pertenecemos al mismo pueblo, al pueblo zapoteca y en ese sentido, pues lo que estamos tratando [00:09:00] de hacer es que se fortalezcan nuestras comunidades, que se fortalezcan nuestra comunalidad, que es nuestra forma de organización comunitaria, y por esa razón es que preferiríamos que la gente no migra. Pero el problema es que ha habido un empobrecimiento muy brutal del campo en general, no solamente en México. Lo vemos también en otros países, que los que emigran principalmente son gente que sale del campo y van hacia los estados unidos a trabajar al campo en estados unidos, pero en condiciones que son completamente distintas a como se trabajaba en la comunidad. Incluso aquí en México, algunos van a trabajar en los campos del norte del país, también este en condiciones, pues terribles, con muchos agroquímicos. La gente regresa en algunos casos regresan enfermos, no? O regresan con las patas por delante, dijeron en el pueblo, porque [00:10:00] ya pues están muertos. Regresan nada más para que los entierren en la comunidad. Pero pues, prácticamente toda su v

    57 min
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About

Welcome to the End of Tourism, a podcast about wanderlust, exile, and radical hospitality. For some, tourism can entail learning, freedom, and financial survival. For others, it means the loss of culture, land, and lineage. Our conversations explore the unauthorized histories and consequences of modern travel. They are dispatches from the resistance. Hosted by Chris Christou. chrischristou.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Chris Christou
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    74
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Chris Christou
  • Show Website
    The End of Tourism

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