Radical Recentring with Nonie White

Nonie White

A weekly podcast for ambitious women leaders and entrepreneurs who are ready to stop building from pressure, proving, and performance, and start building success that feels energising, aligned, and deeply theirs. Hosted by Nonie White, positive psychology practitioner, ICF Associate Accredited Coach, Forbes-featured researcher, and co-author of The True Cost of Female Entrepreneurship, this podcast explores the science of unshakeable performance, confidence and leadership. Episodes are 15 to 25 minutes. Episodes 1 and 2 launch Tuesday 2 June 2026. New episodes every Tuesday after that.

  1. 4d ago

    Episode 16: "How Do You Build a £100 Million Business and Still Lead With Kindness?"

    Length: 59 minutes | Released: October 6, 2026 Ella McKay on scaling challenger brand Fatso, making decisions before she has all the answers, and building a company without losing the human side of it. Ella McKay isn't trying to build a nice little chocolate company. She's building Fatso with the ambition to create a £100 million business and join the challenger brands that have completely changed their categories. And right now, the numbers are starting to suggest that ambition isn't out of question. But Ella doesn't only care about how big Fatso gets. She cares how it gets there. She wants the scale without compromising the kindness, values and humanity that she and her small team have built the company around. And that's harder than putting nice values on a website. Because the bigger the business gets, the harder the decisions get too. In this conversation, we explore Ella's journey from hustling startup founder to the confident leader that her scaling business needs now. Guest bioElla McKay, Co-Founder, FATSO Ella is co-founder of FATSO, the chunky dark chocolate brand bringing big flavour and even bigger personality to the category. A self-confessed food obsessive with a marketing background, she left a career working on some of the world's biggest brands to build one of her own. Frustrated by a dark chocolate world that was boring, serious and all about what you should eat, Ella and her co-founders launched FATSO to prove that exceptional chocolate never requires compromise. Today, Ella leads FATSO as it changes perceptions of dark chocolate through bold flavour, uncompromising quality and a healthy dose of attitude. After all, why should milk chocolate have all the fun? In this episodeTimestamps approximate, from the transcript, confirm against the final edit. 00:12: Who Ella McKay is, and how life and work have folded into one thing running Fatso01:14: What Fatso actually is, and the gap in dark chocolate it was built to fill09:12: Scaling from independent shops into Waitrose and Whole Foods, and what that shift demanded21:30: The self-doubt she carried as a founder, and being scared of her own ambition23:08: The Waitrose number she modelled, then scribbled out because she couldn't yet believe it30:19: Leading with kindness, and how overplaying it nearly got in the way of the right decisions42:15: The leadership talk she thought she'd barely fill ten minutes of56:20: What's next for Fatso, and where to find it Mentioned in this episodeFatso (www.sofatso.com): Ella's chunky dark chocolate brandWaitrose and Whole Foods, the retailers Fatso has recently launched intoThe Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses programmeThe Loving Kindness Meditation Nonie introduced to Ella and her team Connect with EllaWebsite: sofatso.comInstagram: @so.fatsoTikTok: @fatso.chocolate Connect with NonieTake the Leadership Identity Quiz: https://noniewhite.com/leadership-identity-quiz/Find out more about the Unshakeable Method, Nonie's four month 1:1 coaching programme: https://noniewhite.com/becoming-unshakeable/ Next episodeNonie talks to Nicola Rae, a well known executive coach and speaker who's helped women build careers and lives they love, with clients including Google, British Airways and Warner Music. But there are parts of her own career story she's never really felt able to talk about, including a minimum wage job that didn't go as planned, and the decision, years later, to return to employment after building a successful coaching business. This conversation is about what ambition looks like when it includes your whole life, rather than consuming it.

  2. Sep 29

    Episode 15: "She Survived A Brain Haemorrhage, Then This Serial Entrepreneur Started Again."

    Length: 1 hour 4 minutes | Released: September 29, 2026 Thea Brook on what happened when everything was stripped away, what she realised really mattered, and how she built her next business around it. Thea Brook is a serial entrepreneur with multi-million business successes to her name. Now she's also a brilliant business coach, helping other entrepreneurs move from six to seven figures. But that's not what's most interesting about her. It's how she got here. Never one for half measures, Thea's story is not your typical burnout narrative. Thea has always hustled hard, even though she knew she should rest more. Then nearly dying, not once but twice, forced her to stop. Not just for a bit. For a considerable period of time. In this episode of Radical Recentring, we get into what happens when life gets in the way of your entrepreneurial plans and forces you to reconsider everything. We explore how a spell in a dark room informed how Thea rebuilt her life from scratch, and what that means for her work today. Guest bioThea Brook, Founder, CALMMThea Brook is the founder of CALMM, which helps founder-led businesses build the structure, rhythm and financial clarity they need to scale profitably without the founder becoming the ceiling. She spent over a decade in finance, as a CFO for high-growth startups scaling into the tens of millions, and has built her own businesses across restaurants, products and services. That means she has sat at the CFO table and in the founder chair. Thea brings financial rigour, commercial pattern recognition and a deeply human understanding of what growth can cost when the business relies too heavily on personal effort. After burnout and a brain haemorrhage forced her to rethink the conventional hustle playbook, she built CALMM around a different belief: calm is not the opposite of ambition, it is the source of sustainable growth. In this episodeTimestamps approximate, from the transcript, confirm against the final edit. 00:19: Who Thea Brook is, running CALMM, and rating her own life a 12 out of 1009:08: The 26-person food business, and two years of what she calls pure stress,12:20: Coming out of the business, going away for a week, and realising she couldn't focus on a single page of a book13:22: The brain aneurysm and the emergency surgery that followed16:19: Weeks in a dark room, unable to tolerate light or sound, and the pain she describes21:11: Gratitude, and the conversation with her husband before she went into surgery33:46: The desk cleared down to two things, and rebuilding from there53:13: Her advice for staying on track, and where to find her now Mentioned in this episodeCALMM, Thea's business helping six figure founders shift into operating at seven figuresToggl, the time-tracking app she recommends to the founders she works with Connect with TheaWebsite: theabrook.comFree workshop, on what's making a business heavier than it needs to be: theabrook.com/workshopLinkedIn: Thea BrookYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@calmm_co Connect with NonieTake the Leadership Identity Quiz: https://noniewhite.com/leadership-identity-quiz/Find out more about the Unshakeable Method, Nonie's four-month 1:1 coaching programme: https://noniewhite.com/becoming-unshakeable/ Next episodeNonie talks to Ella McKay, who isn't trying to build a nice little chocolate company. She's building Fatso with the ambition to hit £100 million and join the challenger brands that have changed their categories. But Ella cares just as much about how Fatso gets there, wanting the scale without losing the kindness and humanity the company was built on. This conversation is about Ella's journey from hustling startup founder to the confident leader her scaling business needs now.

  3. Sep 22

    Episode 14: "From Burnout to Writing the Book on Unshakeable Leadership"

    Length: 51 minutes | Released: September 22, 2026 Rachel Coles is an award-winning marketing agency CEO, campaigner and author. A year ago, she was burnt out, miserable, and convinced she was a terrible boss. She was waking up at 3am worrying about cash flow, and whether her team could pay their mortgages. Taking on clients she didn't even want. Doing far too much of the work herself because she didn't want to burden her team, and generally wondering why she'd started her business in the first place. The wild thing is that her business was actually doing really well the whole time. Rachel just couldn't see it. Fast forward a year, and almost none of this is true anymore. She runs a team of six who only do the work they love, charges what she's worth, sleeps through the night, and is writing a book about how she became an unshakeable leader. In this conversation, we get into what she thinks went wrong, what she did about it, and how becoming more herself changed everything else too, including the maternity health campaigning that's become the other half of her working life. Guest bioRachel Coles, Founder and CEO, Conv3rt Marketing Rachel Coles is the Founder and CEO of Conv3rt Marketing, a full service marketing agency working with SMEs, B2B brands and charities across the UK. With expertise spanning PR, content, SEO, paid media and fractional CMO strategy, Rachel has built Conv3rt into a values led agency known for getting results without the agency nonsense. Beyond the boardroom, Rachel is a maternal health advocate and campaigner. She sits on the UK Government's Maternity and Neonatal Taskforce, has spoken at Parliament through the Maternity APPG, and has used her own experience to drive systemic change in maternity care. A sought after speaker and writer, Rachel champions the idea that the most powerful thing you can do in business, in advocacy and in life is refuse to stay quiet. In this episodeTimestamps approximate, from the transcript, confirm against the final edit. 00:57: Who Rachel Coles is, running a marketing agency and campaigning on maternity health06:41: A year ago: stressed, burnt out, and wondering why she'd started the business in the first place09:34: The red flag clients, and doing all the work herself out of people-pleasing16:58: Raising her prices, and what happened when nobody left19:44: The session where her values clicked into place: "that's who I am, and I actually quite like her"36:44: Why maternity health became her cause43:01: The book she wrote in a single week49:26: Her advice for other female founders, and what she'd tell her younger self Mentioned in this episodeConv3rt Marketing (conv3rt.co.uk): Rachel's marketing agencyThe UK Government's Maternity and Neonatal TaskforceThe Maternity APPG (All Party Parliamentary Group)The five minute journal Connect with RachelWebsite: https://conv3rt.co.uk/LinkedIn: Rachel ColesInstagram: @rachelcoles_birthtrauma Connect with NonieTake the Leadership Identity Quiz: https://noniewhite.com/leadership-identity-quiz/Find out more about the Unshakeable Method, Nonie's four-month 1:1 coaching programme: https://noniewhite.com/becoming-unshakeable/ Next episodeNonie talks to Thea Brook, a serial entrepreneur with multi million business successes to her name, and now a brilliant business coach who helps other entrepreneurs move from six to seven figures. Thea has always hustled hard, even though she knew she should rest more, then nearly died, not once but twice, and was forced to stop for a considerable period of time. This conversation gets into what happens when life gets in the way of your entrepreneurial plans and forces you to reconsider everything, and how a spell in a day room informed how Thea rebuilt her life from scratch.

  4. Sep 15

    Episode 13: "She Said Yes to What She Needed, and No to Everything Else"

    Length: 57 minutes | Released: September 15, 2026 Emmie Faust on burnout, boundaries, and building an 11,000-woman community from a Google form. Emmie Faust has built, scaled and exited businesses, won investment on Dragons' Den, invested in more than thirty female-led companies, and built Female Founders Rise into a community of more than 11,000 women. She knows entrepreneurship from pretty much every angle. She's also been burnt out. After exiting her business, she spent years working as a solo consultant, successful, in demand, and desperately lonely. She remembers telling her husband, "I feel really lonely." Then COVID arrived, and with it work, plus homeschooling four children at home, anxiety and peri-menopause. She got ill, physically, then mentally, and hit what she calls rock bottom. What she built next started with a Google form and a LinkedIn page: a small, low-stakes passion project, just to keep her brain ticking over while she recovered. Nearly four years on, it's Female Founders Rise: 11,000 women across the UK, a lean team, a growing ecosystem of investors, ambassadors and chapter leads, and the Rise Report, a benchmark piece of research into more than 2,000 female entrepreneurs. From being a lonely solo founder, Emmie now hosts events where women queue around the room to speak to her, to the point where she's had to hide in the toilet just to get a moment to herself! That's the thing about Emmie: she's enormously wise, and just as enormously honest and real. In this conversation, she tells what happened when she started building a business, and a life, differently, by saying yes to what she actually needed, and getting much, much better at saying no to everything else. Guest bioEmmie Faust, Founder, Female Founders Rise Emmie Faust is the founder of Female Founders Rise, a UK-based, impact-led community and certified B Corporation supporting more than 11,000 female and non-binary entrepreneurs. She is an exited entrepreneur, a micro angel investor in more than 30 female-led businesses, and a Dragons' Den winner. Founded in 2022, Female Founders Rise exists to help women build profitable, long-term businesses and to close the gender funding gap in the UK, working across four pillars: community, funding support, business fundamentals, and raising the profile of female founders. Its vision is a world where entrepreneurial opportunity is equally accessible to everyone. As the organisation points out, up to £310 billion of new value could be added to the UK economy if women started and scaled businesses at the same rate as men. Emmie is also the founder of The Rise Report of Female Entrepreneurship, a benchmark piece of research drawing on data, stories and insights from more than 2,000 UK female entrepreneurs. In this episodeTimestamps approximate, from the transcript, confirm against the final edit. 00:16: Who Emmie Faust is, and where she's at right now, a mother of four, running Female Founders Rise, "living my best life"01:07: What Female Founders Rise is, and the wider ecosystem of investors, allies and chapter leads behind it04:53: The Rise Report, benchmarking 2,225 founders, and why it took far longer than she expected09:59: The isolation of solo consultancy work, and telling her husband, "I feel really lonely"10:48: Why she now says no to ninety per cent of everything12:38: Quitting consultancy and starting Female Founders Rise as a low-stakes passion project24:50: Rock bottom, a breakdown, a move back to London, and quitting consultancy for good33:35: "Founders are limited on time, energy and money," treating energy as a finite resource36:26: Redesigning how she shows up at events, and hiding in the toilet to get a moment alone47:32: The week with no phone at all, and what it told her51:29: Her biggest learning, her top advice to ambitious founders, and what she'd tell her younger self Mentioned in this episodeFemale Founders Rise (femalefoundersrise.com): the 11,000-member community Emmie foundedThe Rise Report of Female Entrepreneurship (therisereport.co.uk): benchmark research surveying 2,225 UK female entrepreneursFemale Founders Rise Show: the show Emmie co-hosts, on Spotify and YouTube Connect with EmmieWebsite: femalefoundersrise.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/emmiefaustInstagram: @emmiefaustFemale Founders Rise on Instagram: @femalefoundersriseFemale Founders Rise Show: Spotify · YouTubeThe Rise Report: therisereport.co.uk Connect with NonieTake the Leadership Identity QuizFind out more about the Unshakeable Method, Nonie's four-month 1:1 coaching programme. Next episodeNonie talks to Rachel Coles, an award winning marketing agency CEO, campaigner and author. A year ago, she was burnt out, miserable and convinced she was a terrible boss, waking up at 3am worrying about cash flow and whether her team could pay their mortgages, and taking on clients she didn't even want. Her business was actually doing really well. She just couldn't see it. Fast forward a year, and almost none of that is true anymore, and she's even writing a book about how she became an unshakeable leader. This conversation gets into what she thinks went wrong, what she did about it, and how becoming more herself changed everything else too.

  5. Sep 8

    Episode 12: She Couldn't Find a Role Model, So She Became One

    Length: 1 hour 7 minutes | Released: September 8, 2026 Amelia Christie-Miller on taking maternity leave while scaling Bold Bean Co. and challenging the rules of successful leadership. Amelia had built Bold Bean Co. into one of the UK’s fastest-growing private companies. But when she wanted to start a family, she couldn't see how she could step away from a growing business and still lead it. She couldn't find founders showing her that it was possible. So she questioned the assumptions that had shaped how she led: that a good founder needs to be involved in everything, always available and always needed. In this episode of Radical Recentring, Amelia and Nonie explore what happened when she started leading differently, built a team she could trust, went cold turkey on the business for several months and then gradually returned again. She now works four days a week. The business kept growing. They talk about founder guilt, asking for help, letting go, and what it really means to build a business that can thrive without you. Because Amelia didn't want to choose between a flourishing business and the family she wanted. She wanted both. And she found a way to build a life and a business that made both possible. "I think I used to think that I had to be someone I wasn't initially… I was pretty young when I started the business. And so I had this vision of, you know, almost like movie-style leadership. And now I've realised that actually there is a space for me as a leader. It might not be what other conventional CEOs look like, but it’s unique to me and it’s working as well. So I’ve gotta back that.”IN THIS EPISODE01:32 - How Bold Bean Co began 10:38 - Building conviction before pitching investors 16:56 - Ego, blind faith and being shameless in the early years 26:44 - Wanting a family while scaling a business 30:37 - Why Amelia felt guilty resting despite being the boss 36:45 - Cancelling her 1:1s and changing how she led her team 39:19 - The assumption blocking her maternity leave plans 41:40 - Taking two months completely offline 44:48 - Testing whether she was actually needed as she returned 51:24 - The laundry, martyrdom and learning to ask for help 1:04:26 - Rethinking the traditional idea of success 1:05:17- Amelia's advice for ambitious founders ABOUT AMELIA CHRISTIE-MILLERAmelia is the founder and CEO of Bold Bean Co, a certified B Corp on a mission to make people obsessed with beans. She is also the author of two Sunday Times bestselling cookbooks and was named Entrepreneur of the Year by The Grocer in 2025. CONNECT WITH AMELIAWebsite: www.boldbeanco.com Instagram: @ameliachristiemiller LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ameliachristiemiller Bold Bean Co: @boldbeanco WORK WITH NONIEIf this episode resonated, The Unshakeable Method is Nonie's four-month framework for building grounded confidence, leadership and sustainable success. Learn about The Unshakeable Method HEREApply to work with Nonie: HERETake the Leadership Identity Quiz Coming up Next, Episode 13: "What Happened When This Founder Said Yes to What She Needed, and No to Everything Else" Nonie talks to Emmie Faust about twenty years of building, scaling and exiting businesses, burnout and long Covid - and how she went on to create Female Founders Rise, now a community of more than 11,000 women in business, from a Google form.

  6. Aug 24

    Coming Soon: Ten Ambitious Women, Ten Different Versions of Success

    Length: 7 minutes | Released: August 25, 2026 For the first ten episodes, this podcast has been about how you can stop pushing, proving and performing to build an operating system - life, business and leadership - that truly works for you. It’s broken down the evidence-based protocols for building success that feels just as good as it looks. This episode is different and kicks off the second part of the season. This episode is the sound of other ambitious and successful women going through the same journey, in their own words. The hustle that worked until it didn't. The guilt around delegation. The business that left no room for anything else. And the moment each of them stopped asking "how do I try harder" and started asking "is this actually working for me?" Spanning conversations with founders such as The Grocer’s Entrepreneur of the Year, Bold Bean Co Founder Amelia Christie-Miller, 3x exited founder of a 11k+ community of female entrepreneurs, Emmie Faust, as well as with first-time founders - this season goes beyond the headlines to look at what the work looks like close up. This is the teaser for the second part of the season of Radical Recentring: ten ambitious women, ten conversations about what happened when they stopped following the playbook and chose to build a life, a business and leadership that actually truly worked for them. New episodes from September. WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR This episode is for anyone who's heard the last ten episodes and recognised themselves in it, and is curious what it actually looks like when other successful women do this work for real. WHAT YOU WILL HEAR A teaser of ten different women, in their own words, describing the operating system they built success on and started to questionA first look at the new interview series launching in September KEY MOMENTS [00:00] Diverse voices, one recognition: happiness, impact and "twelve out of ten" after years of making life hard [01:19] The operating system most ambitious women inherit, and never chose [02:54] What happens when the old way of working stops working [03:30] Questioning your operating system: the roles, the rules, the version of you that's running the show [05:56] What Radical Recentring actually means, in Nonie's words and Nicola's [06:39] The invitation: ten women, ten conversations, new episodes from September "That's Radical Recentring. Putting yourself back into the equation. Who you are now, what you want now, what brings out your best, and using that to choose what truly works." RELATED EPISODES Episode 0: Why This Work ExistsEpisode 9: Going Against The GrainEpisode 10: The Unshakeable Method, In Full WORK WITH NONIE If this episode resonated, The Unshakeable Method is Nonie's four-month framework for building grounded confidence, leadership and sustainable success. Learn about The Unshakeable Method HEREApply to work with Nonie: HERETake the Leadership Identity Quiz

  7. Aug 18

    Episode 10: The Unshakeable Method

    Length: 7 minutes | Released: August 18, 2026 Most people think they need more discipline, better strategies or another breakthrough to reach their next level. Usually, they actually need a different operating system. You cannot build sustainable success from an identity that no longer fits.Over the last ten episodes, Nonie has unpacked the five-stage framework behind Radical Recentring and the deeper identity work required for unshakeable confidence, leadership and performance. In this final episode of the series, she brings everything together. You'll hear why growth is cyclical, not linear. Why old patterns reappear under pressure. Why so many ambitious people stay stuck trying to solve identity problems with productivity, discipline and external strategies. Nonie walks through all five stages of The Unshakeable Method - Foundations, Psychological Fitness, Identity, Authority and Expression - and explains how they build on each other to create grounded leadership that actually lasts. You'll also hear the transformation stories of clients like Sue and Sophie, who stopped building from fear, performance and depletion and started leading from their authentic best instead. This episode is both a framework recap and an invitation. Because if you've been recognising yourself throughout this series, there is probably a reason for that. And your next level will require more than just working harder inside the same operating system. WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR This episode is for the leader who can feel that the way they've been operating no longer fits the life or leadership they actually want. WHAT YOU WILL HEAR Why growth happens in cycles, not straight linesThe reason most high achievers stay stuck in old patternsWhy productivity and discipline stop working at a certain levelThe five stages of The Unshakeable Method explained simplySue and Sophie's transformation storiesWhat grounded leadership actually creates long termWho the Unshakeable Method programme is really for KEY MOMENTS [00:00] The gateway moment and identity evolution [02:52] Why most people stay stuck despite trying harder [05:38] The five stages of The Unshakeable Method [09:11] Sue's transformation from depletion into grounded leadership [11:06] Sophie's shift from self-doubt into authority [13:24] The invitation to do this work properly “Each evolution deepening your identity, strengthening your authority and expanding your expression.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Apply to work with Nonie: HEREThe Leadership Identity QuizThe True Cost of Female Entrepreneurship: Download free Here RELATED EPISODES Episode 0: Why This Work ExistsEpisode 1: The First StepEpisode 9: Going Against The Grain WORK WITH NONIE If this episode resonated, The Unshakeable Method is Nonie's four-month framework for building grounded confidence, leadership and sustainable success. Apply to work with Nonie: HERETake the Leadership Identity Quiz

  8. Aug 11

    Episode 9: Going Against The Grain

    Length: 15 minutes | Released: August 11, 2026 Most people are trying to force themselves to fit inside someone else's blueprint for success. The people who are actually thriving have usually stopped doing that. They've built lives and businesses around who they truly are instead.What if the most strategic thing you could do was stop building your life around external expectations? Nonie explores what it really means to go against the grain and why the people who thrive long-term are rarely the people following someone else's formula. She breaks down the radical idea at the centre of The Unshakeable Method: putting yourself at the centre of your life and work, not in a self-indulgent way, but in a deliberate and sustainable one. Through the stories of Amelia and Jess, you'll hear what happens when leaders stop trying to perform every role, stop forcing themselves into operating systems that drain them, and start designing work around their actual strengths. This episode also tackles the resistance people face when they begin doing things differently. The guilt. The fear. The raised eyebrows. The internal voice insisting they "should" just cope like everyone else. Because going against the grain is uncomfortable at first. But that discomfort doesn't last. Spending years building a life that doesn't actually work for you does. WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR This episode is for the leader who's successful on paper but increasingly aware that the way they're operating is unsustainable. WHAT YOU WILL HEAR Why there is no single blueprint for successWhat it actually means to put yourself at the centre strategicallyAmelia's story and redesigning leadership around strengthsJess's shift from reactive leadership into intentional leadershipThe resistance people face when they stop conformingWhy grounded authority matters when you do things differentlyThe compound effect of building a life that actually fits KEY MOMENTS [00:00] Why most people are following the wrong blueprint [03:14] The radical move at the centre of Radical Recentring [06:02] Amelia's story and redesigning leadership around strengths [09:11] Jess's shift out of reactive over-functioning [11:42] Why going against the grain triggers resistance [13:50] What becomes possible when your life actually fits you “You've actually built something that works already, and that feels just as good as it looks.” RESOURCES MENTIONED The True Cost of Female Entrepreneurship: Download free Here RELATED EPISODES Episode 7: From Authenticity To AuthorityEpisode 8: The System Isn't Built For UsEpisode 10: The Unshakeable Method WORK WITH NONIE If this episode resonated, The Unshakeable Method is Nonie's four-month framework for building grounded confidence, leadership and sustainable success. Apply to work with Nonie: HERETake the Leadership Identity Quiz

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About

A weekly podcast for ambitious women leaders and entrepreneurs who are ready to stop building from pressure, proving, and performance, and start building success that feels energising, aligned, and deeply theirs. Hosted by Nonie White, positive psychology practitioner, ICF Associate Accredited Coach, Forbes-featured researcher, and co-author of The True Cost of Female Entrepreneurship, this podcast explores the science of unshakeable performance, confidence and leadership. Episodes are 15 to 25 minutes. Episodes 1 and 2 launch Tuesday 2 June 2026. New episodes every Tuesday after that.