Beyond the Resume

Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker

Co-hosted by industry veterans, Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker, the weekly Beyond the Resume Podcast features interviews with some of the best known real estate experts in the U.S. By exploring how they built their successful careers and the impact they have made to the communities around them we hope to educate and inspire anyone building or thinking of building a career in real estate. Join us as we go Beyond the Resume.

  1. Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Litwak (An affordable housing PEP talk)

    21h ago

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Litwak (An affordable housing PEP talk)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Jennifer Litwak, President and CEO of PEP Housing, a nonprofit affordable housing development company headquartered in Sonoma County. Jennifer shares how her path from law, child advocacy, and policy work led her into affordable housing, and why she sees housing not just as real estate, but as a matter of social justice, health, education, stability, and human dignity. The conversation explores PEP Housing’s 48-year legacy, its 23-property portfolio, and its deep expertise in senior affordable housing. Jennifer discusses the growing urgency around senior homelessness in California, the gap between independent affordable housing and affordable assisted living or skilled nursing, and the policy and funding reforms needed to create a more complete continuum of housing for aging residents. She also breaks down the operational realities of senior affordable housing, from long waitlists and resident services to compliance, maintenance, and aging-in-place challenges. The episode also moves into Jennifer’s leadership outside of PEP Housing, including her work with ULI, Globe Street Women of Influence, women-led investment groups, giving circles, and efforts to elevate more women into corporate boardrooms. To close, Jennifer shares her personal grounding practices, including daily meditation, gratitude, and sailing, before offering direct career advice for young professionals: be prepared, do your research, send the thank-you note, and show employers that you understand both the role and the organization. CHAPTERS (02:31) Affordable Housing as Social Justice Jennifer explains how her background as an attorney and child advocate connects to her belief that housing is a human right and that safe, affordable, stable housing shapes health, education, and life outcomes. (05:14) From Big Law to Housing Policy Jennifer reflects on leaving the traditional law firm path, moving into housing and homelessness policy work, and realizing that affordable housing developers needed to be part of the solution-oriented conversations around homelessness. (08:42) The Senior Housing Cliff The conversation turns to senior homelessness, affordable senior housing, and the gap that appears when residents need more support than independent living can provide but cannot afford assisted living or skilled nursing. (13:11) HUD, Assisted Living and Policy Reform Jennifer discusses her “magic wand” idea: revisiting programs and funding models that could help convert certain HUD-funded senior housing into assisted living and create more affordable options across the senior housing continuum. (16:27) The Reality of Operating Senior Housing Jennifer explains the operational complexity of senior affordable housing, including seven-year average waitlists, resident services, compliance, in-unit modifications, maintenance needs, and the importance of experienced long-term ownership. (25:09) Women, Capital and Leadership Access Jennifer talks about advancing women in commercial real estate through Globe Street Women of Influence, women-led investment groups, giving circles, and corporate board advocacy, while Lisa and Chris discuss mentorship, sponsorship, and male allies. (32:11) Gratitude, Sailing, Hiring and Mentorship In the hot seat, Jennifer shares podcast recommendations, her daily meditation and gratitude practices, her love of sailing, what she looks for when hiring, and the mentors who shaped her leadership. -- Jennifer Litwak, PEP Housing, Beyond the Resume podcast, affordable housing, senior affordable housing, workforce housing, senior homelessness, housing policy, women in commercial real estate, ULI -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/SwowwurzBxA Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    43 min
  2. Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Clausen (Raising Capital, Building Trust)

    Jun 8

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Jennifer Clausen (Raising Capital, Building Trust)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Jennifer Clausen, Partner at LEM, for a wide-ranging conversation about commercial real estate, capital raising, investor relations, value-add multifamily investing, leadership, succession planning, workforce housing, and the relationships that drive long-term success in real estate private equity. Jennifer shares how her career moved from communications and Hispanic studies to currency trading, office brokerage, hedge fund capital raising, and ultimately into multifamily investing at LEM. She explains why capital raising is less about quick wins and more about building cycle-resilient relationships that can last 10 to 20 years. From investor transparency and bespoke presentations to quarterly investor letters and understanding the needs of high-net-worth investors versus public pensions, Jennifer breaks down what it actually takes to earn trust in the capital markets. The conversation also explores LEM’s evolution from a founder-led firm to the next generation of leadership, including the challenges of moving from peer to leader, building culture inside a 20-person firm, and executing succession planning in a thoughtful way. Jenniferalso discusses LEM’s focus on value-add multifamily, growth markets, workforce housing, lowercase affordable housing, and why housing supply remains central to the affordability conversation. The episode closes with Jennifer’s perspective on hiring, mentorship, women in real estate, relationship-driven leadership, and why “DPI is the new IRR.” CHAPTERS (01:32) From Fund IV To Fund VII Jennifer introduces her role at LEM, where she became a partner in 2022 after nearly a decade with the firm, leading capital raising, investor relations, and operations. (02:32) LEM’s Value-Add Multifamily Focus Jennifer explains LEM’s 25-year history, its shift from structured debt to equity after the GFC, and its focus on value-add multifamily investments in growth markets. (03:40) From Romance Languages To Real Estate Jennifer traces her path from communications and Hispanic studies to currency trading for a Mexican bank, office brokerage in San Diego, hedge fund capital raising, and eventually LEM. (07:29) Capital Raising Is An Ultra-Marathon Jennifer breaks down why capital raising is not a quick transaction, but a long-term process built on trust, transparency, investor education, and relationships that can last decades. (12:02) Learning The Product, Leading The Team Jennifer discusses why asset management or portfolio management can be a powerful foundation for capital raising, and how she learned by asking questions and staying curious. (13:14) Founder Culture To Next-Gen Leadership Jennifer shares how LEM evolved from a founder-led culture into the next generation of leadership, including the challenge of moving from peer to leader and building a collaborative team culture. (24:38) Workforce Housing, NOAA, And Supply Jennifer discusses LEM’s growth markets, workforce housing renter profile, lowercase affordable housing, municipal tax structures, and why supply is central to the national affordability challenge. ---- Jennifer Clausen, Beyond the Resume, LEM, commercial real estate, capital raising, investor relations, value-add multifamily, workforce housing, affordable housing, real estate private equity, succession planning, women in real estate -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/tZ0uwcwklpI Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    41 min
  3. Beyond the Resume podcast with Pamela West (Excellence in every unit)

    May 26

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Pamela West (Excellence in every unit)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Pamela West, Head of U.S. Affordable Housing & Portfolio Manager at Nuveen, for a conversation about affordable housing investment, institutional capital, impact investing, leadership, and career growth in real estate. Pamela discusses her role leading Nuveen’s U.S. affordable housing platform, including acquisitions, asset management, portfolio strategy, and long-term investment performance. She explains how Nuveen’s work connects to TIAA’s legacy of helping people retire with dignity, and why that mission created a natural bridge into responsible investing and housing that serves working families and communities. The conversation traces the evolution of Nuveen’s affordable housing strategy, from early debt financing to fund investments, direct ownership, and the strategic value of managing investments from acquisition through operations and responsible exit. Pamela also shares why affordable housing has become more attractive to institutional investors, pointing to durable cash flows, strong demand, government support, lower turnover, and the growing recognition that impact and returns do not have to be in conflict. Pamela also reflects on her unconventional path into real estate. Raised in North Carolina in a family of educators, she began as an eighth-grade language arts teacher before moving into multifamily investment sales at CBRE, earning her MBA, and ultimately finding a role at TIAA and Nuveen that connected her investment career with her personal sense of purpose. The episode also covers leadership, hiring, mentorship, women’s professional networks, and what makes someone successful in real estate. CHAPTERS (00:00) TIAA’s Affordable Housing Origin Story Pamela explains how TIAA’s mission of helping people retire with dignity helped shape its early investment in affordable housing through responsible investing. (02:23) Stumbling Into a Specialized Sector Pamela shares how affordable housing became her niche after starting in multifamily, working across real estate sectors, and recognizing the potential of the platform. (04:33) From Financing to Direct Ownership The conversation turns to the evolution of the portfolio, including early investments, emerging managers, direct acquisitions, and the strategic thinking behind the Omni platform. (06:50) No Typical Day in Affordable Housing Pamela describes the variety of her work, from real estate investing and resident services to public-private partnerships and community-level problem-solving. (08:30) High Expectations, Clear Feedback Pamela breaks down her leadership style: hiring smart people, giving autonomy, being direct, creating lessons from mistakes, and recognizing strong performance. (12:40) Institutional Capital Enters the Market The discussion explores how institutional investment has changed affordable housing by improving operations, addressing deferred maintenance, and professionalizing the market. (16:00) From Teacher to Real Estate Investor Pamela reflects on growing up in North Carolina, teaching eighth-grade language arts, discovering real estate through CBRE, earning her MBA, and finding purpose at TIAA. (23:00) The Future of Affordable Housing Pamela discusses affordable housing as a “purple issue,” the maturation of the sector, and why returns may normalize as the market becomes more efficient. (27:09) The Hot Seat: Books, Family, Hiring, and Mentors Pamela talks about biographies, East of Eden, her family, women’s networks, what she looks for when hiring, and the mentors who have helped shape her career. -- affordable housing, Pamela West, Beyond the Resume, real estate investing, impact investing, institutional capital, TIAA, Nuveen, affordable housing finance, real estate leadership, multifamily investing, career development -- YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xm2py2kNI2o Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    38 min
  4. Beyond the Resume podcast with AJ Jackson (Investing in the Missing Middle)

    May 18

    Beyond the Resume podcast with AJ Jackson (Investing in the Missing Middle)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker speak with AJ Jackson, President of Leo Impact Capital, about investing in the missing middle through naturally occurring affordable housing, mixed-income communities, and resident-centered operating strategies. AJ explains how Leo Impact Capital focuses on everyday working renters: teachers, first responders, service technicians, clerks, IT workers, and others who often earn too much to qualify for subsidized housing but still struggle to afford market rents in high-opportunity neighborhoods.AJ breaks down Leo’s investment approach, including the role of NOAH preservation, long-term affordability, social connection, rent reporting, credit building, tax abatement, sustainability investments, and partnerships with local nonprofits like The Lotus Campaign. The conversation also explores AJ’s career path from Capitol Hill and GSA to real estate development and impact investing, along with broader reflections on career exploration, mental health, leadership, hiring, mentorship, and why thriving communities cannot afford to lose the middle.Chapters(00:00) Meet AJ Jackson and Leo Impact CapitalAJ introduces Leo Impact Capital and explains the firm’s focus on financial mobility for everyday working renters through real estate investment, strong locations, and social connection.(00:54) Investing in the Missing MiddleAJ defines the “missing middle” renter: people who are over income for public housing support but still financially pressed by rent, transportation, healthcare, student loans, and other costs.(04:21) Solving the Housing CliffLisa connects AJ’s work to the benefits cliff, and AJ explains how mixed-income properties can create flexibility for residents as their income rises.(05:39) Charlotte, Credit Building and Resident ImpactAJ walks through Leo’s Charlotte investment, its partnership with The Lotus Campaign, units reserved for residents at risk of homelessness, and the power of rent reporting to help residents build credit.(11:39) Tax Abatement, Sustainability and NOAH PreservationThe conversation turns to tax abatement, energy audits, capital planning, and why AJ sees naturally occurring affordable housing as a critical but under-recognized part of the housing affordability landscape.(15:36) From Alabama to Real Estate InvestmentAJ reflects on attending the University of Alabama, beginning his career in politics, working at GSA, going to business school, and eventually finding his way into development and impact investing.(20:24) Career Lessons, Flexibility and Mental HealthAJ shares the skills that have shaped his career, including moving between big-picture strategy and small details, knowing where passion and talent intersect, and protecting energy, mood, and mental health.(25:54) Making the Middle InvestableAJ discusses the investment case for NOAH, the challenge of helping investors understand the asset class, and why stable, well-located, affordable housing for middle-income renters remains a major opportunity.(29:20) The Hot Seat: Books, Podcasts and HabitsAJ shares what he listens to, including The Rest Is History, Founders, and MeatEater, while reflecting on the patterns and habits that show up across successful entrepreneurs and leaders.(35:29) Hiring for Writing, Grit and Critical ThinkingAJ explains what he looks for when hiring: strong writing, entrepreneurial drive, hunger for the work, and the ability to think through problems rather than simply chase the “right” answer.(37:19) Mentorship, Purpose and the MiddleAJ closes by reflecting on the mentors who shaped his sense of purpose-driven work, win-win solutions, and why communities need the middle in order to thrive.--AJ Jackson, Leo Impact Capital, missing middle housing, naturally occurring affordable housing, NOAH preservation, impact investing, affordable housing, mixed-income housing, financial mobility

    40 min
  5. Beyond the Resume podcast with Dan Rosen (Real estate, only harder)

    May 11

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Dan Rosen (Real estate, only harder)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, we sit down with Daniel Rosen of Klein Hornig, an affordable housing and community development attorney whose work centers on helping clients structure, finance, preserve, and close complex affordable housing transactions. Dan shares how he found his way into affordable housing law during law school, after discovering a career path that brought together social justice, race, cities, place, policy, and mission-driven legal work. He explains why affordable housing law is often “real estate, harder,” with transactions that require deep knowledge of tax credits, HUD approvals, regulatory structures, multiple funding sources, and highly technical financing tools. The conversation explores how the affordable housing landscape has changed over Dan’s career, especially as projects have become more ambitious, more expensive, and more layered. Dan discusses the growing complexity of deals involving historic rehab, distressed housing redevelopment, mixed-income and mixed-use projects, church properties, office-to-residential conversions, and multi-source financing structures. Chris, Lisa, and Dan also discuss career paths into affordable housing law, the value of being purposeful in professional choices, and why relationship-building matters even in deeply technical legal work. Dan reflects on the difference between working in-house and serving multiple clients through private practice, the importance of closers in affordable housing transactions, and the role of mentors in shaping his career and the DNA of Klein Hornig. The episode closes with Dan’s thoughts on the future of affordable housing, rising development costs, political and policy challenges, AI in legal practice, and the balance between mission, technical expertise, and practical execution. CHAPTERS (02:07) Finding Affordable Housing Law by Accident Dan explains how he stumbled into the field during law school and found a practice that connected his interests in social justice, race, cities, and place. (03:30) “Real Estate, Harder” Dan breaks down what makes affordable housing law different from conventional real estate, including tax credits, HUD regulations, financing structures, and deal complexity. (06:40) Why Deals Keep Getting More Complex The conversation turns to rising costs, layered financing sources, ambitious projects, and why clients are often forced to assemble six, eight, or ten funding sources to close a gap. (08:26) Building a Career in Affordable Housing Law Dan discusses how law students and attorneys can enter the field, whether through affordable housing firms, commercial real estate, tax, government, or mission-driven legal work. (12:03) Relationships Beyond the Desk Chris and Lisa explore Dan’s approach to networking, brand-building, ULI involvement, and why showing up became part of helping grow a successful legal practice. (18:20) Costs, Complexity, and the Industry Outlook Dan reflects on the future of affordable housing, tax credit improvements, political energy around housing, rising per-unit costs, and serious challenges facing nonprofit clients and residents. (28:12) AI, Timekeeping, and Legal Tech Dan shares how Klein Hornig is beginning to explore AI, including AI-assisted timekeeping, search tools, and the potential impact of document review and generation on legal practice. YouTube: https://youtu.be/a4DiHVMRsLY Spotify: https://bit.ly/beyondtheresume-spotify Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3I3nkG9

    34 min
  6. Beyond the Resume podcast with Paul Weissman (The raddest financing puzzle)

    May 4

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Paul Weissman (The raddest financing puzzle)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Paul Weissman, Senior Managing Director and Head of Affordable Housing Production at Lument, for a wide-ranging conversation on affordable housing finance, career development, and the human side of real estate. Paul explains Lument’s work as a multifamily commercial real estate lender with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and FHA lending capabilities, while also tracing the company’s legacy through Red Capital, Lancaster Pollard, Hunt Real Estate Capital, CharterMac, and Centerline. Paul shares how an unconventional path, from studying foreign languages to living in France, the Soviet Union, and Taiwan, eventually led him into law school, business school, tax credit syndication, bond transactions, and affordable housing finance. His story offers practical career advice for students and emerging professionals interested in real estate, LIHTC, tax-exempt bonds, FHA lending, and multifamily housing. The conversation also dives into why affordable housing deals are more like complex, three-dimensional puzzles than straightforward real estate transactions. Paul discusses the evolving challenges of tax credit pricing, taxable debt, recycled bonds, state subsidies, subordinate financing, and the many public and private stakeholders involved in getting a project across the finish line. The episode closes with reflections on AI in lending, the importance of getting out from behind the desk to see the impact of affordable housing firsthand, the value of mentorship, and why Paul looks for interesting, thoughtful people when hiring. It is a grounded and insightful episode for anyone interested in affordable housing, real estate finance, career pivots, and the people behind mission-driven development. CHAPTERS (03:07) From Foreign Languages to Affordable Housing Paul reflects on studying languages, living abroad, teaching English in Taiwan, and eventually finding his way into law, business school, real estate development, and tax credit work. (07:59) Where Lenders Fit in the Deal Cycle Paul explains how lenders often enter the affordable housing process when developers are applying for bonds, credits, or other financing, while also serving as early-stage consultants for clients. (11:02) Affordable Housing as a Complex Puzzle The conversation explores why affordable housing transactions require comfort with uncertainty, constant problem-solving, and the ability to balance competing sources, uses, stakeholders, and requirements. (18:13) Why Scale Is Hard in Affordable Housing Paul and Chris discuss the growing role of large institutions in affordable housing and why approvals, transaction complexity, and smaller deal sizes make the sector difficult to scale quickly. (20:48) Learning LIHTC From Scratch Paul shares that he entered the field without knowing what a low-income housing tax credit or cap rate was, then built his knowledge through conferences, experts, trial and error, and self-directed learning. (26:27) Seeing the Impact in Person Paul describes the value of visiting affordable housing properties, including watching a Denver project rise from his office window and later seeing the transformation of a major RAD transaction with NYCHA. (29:59) AI, Efficiency, and Better Lending Workflows Paul discusses how AI may help lenders summarize reports and improve efficiency, while emphasizing caution around sensitive information, accuracy, and using AI to support rather than make decisions. --- affordable housing, Lument, Paul Weissman, Beyond the Resume, LIHTC, tax credit equity, FHA lending, Fannie Mae Freddie Mac, multifamily finance, real estate career advice

    42 min
  7. Beyond the Resume Podcast with Thalia Lankin (Stop overthinking your career)

    Apr 27

    Beyond the Resume Podcast with Thalia Lankin (Stop overthinking your career)

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, hosts Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker sit down with Thalia Lankin, Chief Operating Officer at the NHP Foundation, to unpack a career rooted in purpose, impact, and strategic leadership in affordable housing. Thalia shares her journey from Western Massachusetts to the University of Pennsylvania, and how an early exposure to inequality shaped her commitment to housing accessibility. She dives into her experience working with the Millennial Housing Commission, her 15-year tenure in institutional investment at the Housing Investment Trust, and her transition into the development side of the business. Listeners will gain insight into how affordable housing actually works—from capital markets to development, operations, and resident services—and why wages, supply, and system-level thinking are critical to solving the housing crisis. Thalia also breaks down the real role of a COO, how to scale organizations effectively, and what it takes to lead with both empathy and accountability. She offers candid advice for students and young professionals, emphasizing curiosity, decision-making, and adaptability as the most valuable career skills. The conversation also explores emerging topics like AI in real estate operations, leadership development, hiring philosophy, and the future of property management. If you're interested in real estate, affordable housing, leadership, or mission-driven careers, this episode delivers practical insights and real-world perspective from one of the industry’s most thoughtful operators. CHAPTERS (00:36) Inside the NHP Foundation Thalia explains NHP’s mission, scale, and impact across 16 states. (02:39) Choosing Affordable Housing Over Traditional Finance The pivotal decision to pursue purpose-driven work. (04:32) What a COO Actually Does Breaking down operations, strategy, and organizational leadership. (06:50) Early Career and Affordable Housing Crash Course The Millennial Housing Commission and formative industry exposure. (12:28) Wages, Unions, and Housing Affordability How income levels shape the affordability equation. (14:45) Transitioning from Capital Markets to Development Key differences and lessons learned on the development side. (16:19) AI in Real Estate and Property Management Opportunities and challenges in adopting new technologies. (19:24) Leadership Style and Managing Teams Inclusive leadership, radical candor, and team development. (22:04) Career Advice for Young Professionals Curiosity, decision-making, and overcoming fear of failure.

    32 min
  8. Apr 20

    Beyond the Resume podcast with Jeremy Hoffman (Zen & the Art of Affordable Housing

    In this episode of Beyond the Resume, host Chris Papa sits down with Jeremy Hoffman, COO of Zen, an affordable housing development consulting firm, to unpack a non-linear career journey that spans architecture, global travel, public policy, and large-scale housing development. Jeremy shares how a chance encounter abroad led him into real estate development, and how his experience at the New York City Department of Housing Preservation and Development (HPD) shaped his expertise in policy, finance, and execution. Now back in California, he’s helping scale a consulting firm while leading affordable housing projects across the state. This conversation explores the intersection of mission-driven work, technical skill-building, and career adaptability, offering valuable insight for anyone interested in affordable housing, urban development, or breaking into the industry. Key Topics Covered • Affordable housing development in California vs. New York • Career pivots and non-linear professional paths • Financial modeling and real estate fundamentals • The role of consultants in housing development • Policy, zoning, and public-sector influence • Skills needed to succeed in affordable housing Chapters (00:00) – Introduction & Wearing Multiple Hats Jeremy shares what it means to be COO of a growing consulting firm while balancing family life and development work. (02:15) – What Zen Does: Affordable Housing Consulting Explained An inside look at how Zen supports developers—from financing strategy to full project management. (05:00) – Growing Up in Oakland & Early Career Influences Jeremy’s upbringing, architectural roots, and early exposure to the built environment. (07:45) – From Construction to Global Travel A pivot away from traditional paths, including time in New York and traveling through Southeast Asia. (10:00) – The Turning Point: Discovering Real Estate Development A chance meeting abroad introduces Jeremy to development as a career. (12:30) – Grad School & Falling in Love with Financial Modeling How Jeremy built technical skills and entered the affordable housing space. (15:00) – NYC HPD: Policy, Power, and Real Impact Working inside New York City government and helping shape inclusionary zoning policy. (18:30) – Transition Back to California Returning to the Bay Area and adapting to a very different affordable housing landscape. (21:00) – Developer vs. Consultant: Key Differences Why Jeremy made the move into consulting—and what makes it compelling. (24:00) – Inside Affordable Housing Deals Breaking down complexity: partnerships, financing layers, and execution challenges. (27:00) – Career Advice: How to Break Into Affordable Housing Why there’s no single path—and what skills actually matter. (30:00) – Habits, Mentors & Personal Growth Daily routines, leadership lessons, and the mentors who shaped Jeremy’s career.

    34 min

Ratings & Reviews

4.5
out of 5
8 Ratings

About

Co-hosted by industry veterans, Chris Papa and Lisa Flicker, the weekly Beyond the Resume Podcast features interviews with some of the best known real estate experts in the U.S. By exploring how they built their successful careers and the impact they have made to the communities around them we hope to educate and inspire anyone building or thinking of building a career in real estate. Join us as we go Beyond the Resume.

You Might Also Like