Risk is the New Kale

Catherine Roome

Conversations with risk-takers on how to extract opportunity from risk. Risk is the new kale - good for you, hard to take.

Episodes

  1. 07/02/2022

    Life’s rules, through an air accident investigation lens (S1E008)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale good for you? Hard to take.  This interviews with Bill Yearwood and the theme is what can complex air accident investigations teach us about our own sense of safety. Bill has been quoted in the media so many times that his voice became synonymous with public reassurance. People just wanted to know that someone got to the bottom of an accident so that it would never happen again. I've known him for many years. We share this drive to understand complexity and also this sense of responsibility that communicating the outcomes of an investigation is a huge responsibility because you actually want to change. People's minds about what it does to be safe and to control risk. I know no one with more integrity than Bill Yearwood. He's the award-winning former manager of Regional Operations Pacific for the Transportation Safety Board Aviation accident investigations. He's a pilot and a road racer. He's the author of getting it, learning from aviation Accident Investigations published in 2021. I'm pleased to be speaking with Bill Yearwood and welcome Bill to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Happy to be on this and look forward to hearing more of what you've got to put out. Now you've been the lead investigator for numerous complex air accident investigations and you enjoy helicopter flying, so it's fair to say you're good at self management of risk. Well, I like to think that that's that's what it's all about. You know risk. Risk management safety is all about about anticipating and managing exactly exactly and one of the things I really enjoyed in your book bill and I love the title. Getting it. You say that we have to assume that designers, manufacturers, maintainers, operations managers and pilots did not intend the accident to occur. And it's kind of hard to understand how far we humans can go past the signs of danger. So tell me a bit more about that. Well to start with, I I. Have to remind people  that the word accident means that it wasn't intentional. If we were to to think that they thought. Or knew that this would happen then you know it's a police matter. It's criminal, you know, to let it happen so so as investigators and rational people, we we know that that nobody wants their equipment or their operation to hurt other people and we can talk more about that in the end. But the. So how do we go past? So many. Signals of. Danger. Is a lot about. Our need to complete a task.  Most of us when we take on a task, we want to see it completed, we, we and and sometimes they call that operational momentum. That's a great expression. I use the space shuttle accident as a classic example. Of not just signals. But experts saying don't do this. You know that we're not tested for this etcetera and they went ahead anyway, so so I'm guilty of it, you know, and I know that a lot of us are guilty of. Trying to complete. Attask job, whatever.  Once we get started. Now that is such an interesting point around. This need to finish. Almost put parentheses around something. Once you've started it, and I'm wondering whether even as part of our education there's something missing around the ability to pause and let something be open-ended for whatever kind of external thing comes up. And just to kind of let something end and do a pause because you're right, I think we are. All sort of driven to be task completers and so we're putting our heads down and maybe not noticing when we actually should stop. Because because I know that is a trait of mine and many I. Try to get the the decisions of stopping done before I start. In other words, put in. I'm not going unless this and and stick with those and. And even if I get to hear. And they can't see this or do this. I got to turn around because I know that once I get started, even just getting to the airport for me. Is hard to sit to turn around and say you know what? It's not good enough to go. You're almost injecting your own safety gates in by thinking through those pause points. That's neat. Yeah, and I've talked about that about what's human, what's in my nature? And and look out for that what's and and when we when we talk about risk, it's subjective and everybody has different tolerance and and our tolerance changes. Very quickly based on the circumstances and and we can easily find an excuse why we can go. You know another 10 feet or another 10 miles before we turn around and and that might be the the gap you needed to turn around.  So I I just want to take you back to your childhood and because I'm curious about how you've learned this, because you certainly embody that. And I know that you grew up on a sugar estate in Guyana and as a kid you swam in waters that had piranha in them. You had to watch out for alligators and constrictors, so that must have been quite a childhood, and probably it was amazing. How do you think that influenced your choices and your thinking later in life? Well, I think it did a lot. It makes one realize that you have to look after yourself an early age. It was kind of forced on me to stay alive, really in those conditions to manage risk. So what do you do to avoid being bitten by a Parana in water that had Parana? You know, and you learn from little stories from other people and you do it. You know you go in splashing like crazy and get out. No sort of sitting around and wiggling your toe or something like that because it'll be gone. OK, that's the secret. So you've got to scare them off and not thinking that you're actually something making nibble on. Yeah, so it's the opposite of fishing. You know, that's good. And then and then just having your eyes open.  To see what's around and et cetera. So we're some of those things you know. Even when I was an instructor, I could tell students that were easier to train on a helicopter. Because of their background, if they showed up on a motorcycle or we knew they worked a tractor or backhoe on a farm, I knew that they they had some basics to to help them with three dimensional control. And in my case. Had some of that too, but but I had some basics to help me with risk management. OK, that's fascinating. Now when I met you many years ago, it was at an aviation leadership conference and you were standing next to the widow of a man who had drowned after a floatplane accident. I was extremely moved by your dedication to this person. And like all spouses of accidents, she wanted to make sure that what her husband went through never happened to anyone else. That if anything comes from something so horrible, it's learning and correction, I'm going to talk a bit about that. Yeah, unfortunately there's the few of those like that where I end up. Talking to the loved ones of people who have lost their lives in accidents and. Sometimes not sometimes, but every time. As an investigator you get to see some things that that are you'll never forget you can see. Images of. Those persons struggle to survive or to avoid the tragedy they went through.  And when that happens. We don't. We don't share that. Openly. Even among ourselves, we get we get help to counseling because we know that it's that it has an effect on us. But it sticks with you forever. And any time you see. Or come across. That trap that caused that loss. It's vivid. And and you, you can't leave it alone and you get up on your soapbox and start talking about what needs to be done again. Yeah, so it's. It's a must, you know, caring for the people that are left and and all the people who've experienced that and the best care is to to try and make sure it doesn't happen again. I can see that's deeply affected you, for sure. Let's go to a different question that may be reflects risk, as the new kale good for you. Hard to take. What are good risks? So how can we evolve without taking risk as a society? Well, we can't. We have to take risks but it's interesting to to answer that question about what's good risk. And I mean the simple answer is.  You know, probably high probability of success or low chance of failure. You know that that that's simple and that is quick. That's what we do. You know it's it's pretty easy there. That to say, what is good risk is a little more difficult. I mean, it's good to go out. For a walk and exercise, but there is a risk of of getting run over by a car, but there's a bigger risk if you stay at home on the couch and and you know, turn into boneless chicken. You know, it's kind of.  So. It's. You have to to look at it that way and and really what improved the species is good risk management, you know. So the word risk itself is it's the stimulus for the improvement, and we can simply say use an example of wanting to come in across a Creek and needing to jump over it. Now you have to assess well, is it possible at all? And yeah, how far back do I have to run to get up to the speed I need to be? So that I cross the water before gravity takes over. If you do it, then you succeed you have. Enhanced or your judgment? You know or confirmed your judgment. If you fall in the water and you have to run and do it again, you have enhanced your fitness and your judgment theater isn't bad either. You know, in those small cases that it's part of of improving the species. Because if if you can see that it's possible. Then getting through that hurdle wrist challenge. Improves the species absolutely. And of course you know we. We measure safety by hazard identification and. Assessing the risk or managing it, but hazard identifica

    Life’s rules, through an air accident investigation lens (S1E008)

  2. 07/02/2022

    Elevator mechanic Nicole Wiet delivers on the real risk (S1E007)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale. Good for you, hard to take.  Thank you so much. This is so nice. This is awesome. I just can't believe we have just run into each other so many times over our career and now I'm out the other side into a totally different career. We can actually be friends as opposed to colleagues college. She's been an elevator mechanic for over 13 years. She's passionate about leadership and advocacy, is formerly a member of the Executive Board of the International Union of Elevator Constructors, a shop Steward, a founding member of BC Tradeswomen Society, and on the Governance. Committee of the BC Center for Women in Trades please welcome Nicole Wheat. Thanks OK, we're going to just jump right in here. Nicole safety breaks became standard on elevating devices in the 1850s, but for some folks that is not very comforting. So why do you think that people believe elevators are riskier than they actually are? I think it's just because people don't understand them, and people often fear what they don't fully understand. It's like a magic box that gets them from one place to another, but they actually have no idea how it works on the inside. Besides, movies like speed, of course, which dramatize it and often use incorrect information. I I heard a lot when I'm like working at when I'm at work, especially if the doors are open and we have our barricades and people often peek in to see you know what it looks like. And yeah, it's amazing how often people comment about how elevators scare them so much, and I usually respond with a little bit of information that most elevators actually fall up, not down. Yeah, exactly exactly right. The breaks are holding them against the counterweight, so magical box is amazing symbolism. OK, so I want to talk about. How you came to be a mechanic for the magical box, but I know that you went to university and you studied criminology and then you did this change and you became an elevator mechanic. So tell me how that happened. Yeah, I wanted to be an RCMP officer and things just kind of changed and my goals changed. Kind of and I was kind of just floating around. It wasn't sure what I was going to do so actually went off to Taiwan and I taught English for 2 1/2 years and Taipei loved it. Still have amazing friends. Actually went back to see some of the students a couple of years ago. They were all in their last year's university because  they were so 12 when I left it was crazy, but. I am yeah, I kind of came back and went back to university majoring in English and my dad was actually talking to my sister's boyfriend at the time and and mentioning that the elevator union was hiring and just a process you call in and get your name on a list and then write it aptitude test and I just responded with like me. I'll do it and my dad's always supported me in anything I've done. So he's like, yeah, you'd be great at this and that's so cool. Kind of just how it happened. Yeah, it's like you fell into it, but of course it was meant to be right because you went to your dad's jobs with them right through high school and I'm sure there was shop talk around the kitchen. So family probably had a big influence. Oh for sure, yeah, my grandfather passed away now, but he was also an elevator guy in the union. So I listened to the two of them and my dad's best friend. Most of my dad's friends were elevator guys growing up, but my dad's best friend and my dad used to do their time together. On Thursdays and they were always building things in the garage as well and I just used to love just hanging out with them and listening to them talk and helping out. I had my own little like old welding hat that I could put on so I could watch what they were doing when they were welding stuff and they always loved their job like they always. They were never frustrated with it, they just considered every time something wasn't working as it should. It was just a problem that they would dissect and talk about and and decide how. Let's try this and maybe tomorrow we'll try this and they just they loved it. They really did love doing it and I think that just passed on to me where I was just like this is a job that my dad loves so much and it was interesting and it's never going to be boring. It's always gonna be something new to break as technology changes and their love of it just really got passed along to me I believe. I just admire that so much I have to say. My dad was an electrician and I learned the definition of integrity  from him because he would describe a job and then he would say and this is what we did to make it work and and I knew that it was elegant the way that you know he pulled the wire through and where he tied it off like it was. Yeah it meant a lot to actually have that as a basis. What do you think today holds people back from going into trades? It's a wonderful career. It really is a wonderful career and I can't imagine doing anything else. But I think representation really matters and it's hard to picture yourself doing a job that you've never seen. Another person doing that looks like you there weren't a lot of women in the trade when I got in. There were two other at the time, but they both lived in Vancouver and worked in Vancouver where I started my career out on the island. So it wasn't till I was. Almost finishing my apprenticeship that actually met another woman in the trade and it was like Oh my goodness, I'm not alone. We call it a Unicorn trade often with those trades where there's there's so few of us around. There's also like a lot of both internalized misogyny and misogyny. Women's face on job sites we can. He could be hard to walk into that, knowing that there's things are going to have to deal with and. And just. That misconception that you have to be a big and strong to be a tradesperson. Well, I don't really think that's right. There's always going to be a time where you need to move £100.00, but do it smartly. Use a tool team lift, lift smarter, not harder. We say that one all the time. And look at what you can do well. Look at your skills and your strengths and work towards those. No one's going to be the best at everything. Just pick those things that you're going to be the best at and. And whether it be like funny or handed to a tight spot, you know troubleshooting some people really get organizing things, and that is definitely something you need in the trades organization. Those are really good tips, right? You can find your own genius. You don't have to have all of it. Yeah, for sure. I'm never going to lift as much as a guy that's 6 foot two right, but I  can do other things really well. Yeah? And then you're going to take care of your long term health because you're not going to end up having compression issues. Very important. OK, so you're a huge advocate for women in trades and we first met when we were both on a panel. You founded the BC Tradeswomen Society. And when you say that representation matters, I also believe you have to see it to be it. So how is the sector changing like do you see policy change, legislative change, culture change? Where is it evolving? It it is changing, so there is a group of women that we yeah, we work together. We created the BC Tradesman Society. We founded it in part because we wanted to get government funding to create a Center for women in the trades. Or we could really advocate for change rather than. Always having volunteers, actually having people that their job was to advocate for women in trades, it is hard to do it all off the edge of your seat wall already working 40 plus hours. Pat your career so. We created the BC Tradesman Society and actually from that we were one of the partners with another couple other groups to create the BC Center for Women the trades and they're doing great work. They are really really changing the workscape to make it more suitable for not just women but other people as well. It doesn't always have to look the same and there's not ever going to be one fix for everyone. But there's a lot of other groups though, too, so there's like the BC tradesman Society the BCC Center for women in the trades. The build together, which is part of the building trades builders code BCI B. There's all these different groups and I think everyone does things a little bit differently and I think with all those options, or really are making a shift of that culture. It's also just explaining people that people  need more than just a job. They need a place where they can like learn in a safe environment and be given the chance to actually learn the skills that they're going to need to have a successful career. You are starting to see that too with like. I know in your lines of work that you've done as well. Trying to help with diversity, like making sure the language is inclusive. Whether it be on a job listing, making sure there's diversity training, there's committees. At your work or union, that can really focus on those things to you, know grassroots as well. It just has to kind of come from all directions to make a difference. I think it's a complex problem. You're right, so it's gonna take a very wide way of solving it. Yeah, that was really nicely described. I'm interested in the language side. For me, language has it's just so important how people describe themselves seems to me that there's a generational shift in that too. The way that people are showing up and intentionally taking back language. Do you see tha

    Elevator mechanic Nicole Wiet delivers on the real risk (S1E007)

  3. 07/02/2022

    Strength comes through our mindset and the fuel we take in (S1E006)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale good for you? Hard to take.  Marisa's interview is great because she's an experienced podcaster and she has such a positive, engaging message around personal health, which for me is the same thing as personal wealth. We've known and worked together for more than 10 years, and that's really ever since I finally realized that the people I most admired around me, who were the most successful in their careers, actually were the folks who prioritized their workouts. So this podcast theme, it offers some surprising insights into how individuals assess or maybe are in denial about their health risk and eventually what changes their mind. So that's perfect. Look at that. The two of us in our. Space. He's a health coach to CEO's athletes and business owners, and has been in the health and nutrition coaching and fitness space for 25 years. A certified with a degree in human kinetics from the University of British Columbia as well as certified with the Institute of Integrative Nutrition. Her clients live and work across North America. You can follow her on Instagram and LinkedIn to. I'd like to welcome Marisa McKenzie, owner of Marisa Mackenzie Health coaching. Thank you Catherine. I'm happy to be here great. All right. So I'm going to just dive in reisa. What's the number one thing your CEO clients say about their lives?  Now, do you mean when they're training with me or before they start? Yeah, I would say before they start before you put them on the right path before we start. I think the biggest thing is they're so used to having confidence in every aspect of their life except for their health in before they start with me. That's and it's different for them, that's they're used to having confidence in it, every aspect, but they don't because it's such a specialized field that unless you've done a lot of research. On it, you wouldn't know what to do, so there are a bit lost. Sometimes before we start, so I would say that's it. And then as you get into a program with them, do you actually see a shift in their thinking and about when does that happen? Yes, and that is the best when you see the shift in it is great. I mean this happens with all clients, but it's very cool seeing it with somebody such as a CEO or an executive because they're just so confident in every other aspect of their life. And so when you do see that shift, it's fantastic. It's different for everybody. It can be a few weeks and depending on what their goals are and what they're looking at, why they hire me. And and if it is a risk, something high like that, like a diabetes or a heart attack, it's other scared too. And this might be the first time in a long time they've been scared. So that's another thing that we work on is confidence around what they're going to do, and so we get an action plan together. And then if they know they've got a plan  to follow, it's just so much easier because they know, OK, I can stay on track. With this I can follow this and it's going to get me to where I need to be. I think it's it just feels a lot more comfortable when you know you have a plan of attack where you're just not going aimlessly into something that seems like such a practical way to get people past fear. But isn't it interesting? The people that we don't expect to have that kind of uncertainty or lack of confidence in their lives? This is probably the most vulnerable place they have. Exactly, yes, I think that's it, and I probably get to talk to those people more than anybody else does in a personal way, except for maybe their spouse or their very close friends. And even our very close friends. We don't often, especially CEOs, get to talk to them because they're so busy. So if I see a CEO one to three times a week that say that's three hours or two hours a week, one on one time talking about themselves, that's usually a lot more time. That they can spend with anybody else on just themselves. You know, when you're talking with your spouse, you're talking with your kids. It's different, right? So we're really focusing on their as you said, their fears, their weaknesses, and what's going to get them past that next obstacle that they're trying to get past. I just want to back up a bit then and ask you about your career. I started right after university. I kind of lucked into a job and it was right when corporate health was taking off in Vancouver. I worked at about 5 different companies in their corporate sector, so the people that I came across right away were executives, and that was really lucky for me because I got to know what their lives were like right off the bat. And I realized how much I liked working one on one with people.  So then I decided to go into. Personal training and within a couple years I opened my own personal training studio and it was one of the first ones in Vancouver, so it attracted a lot of people and those were the type of people that attracted executive CEOs and business professionals. So it worked out really well and I think it was luck at the beginning and then it just connections and I really enjoy connecting with people and helping people. Seeing how just everything changes in their life, it's not just one thing. It's not just their health, it's their mental health. It's their emotional health. It's their physical health, it's everything. So it was a really exciting time.  You know it just reflecting on the gym being an intimidating place and you know wearing you know not very much when you're in there. When we're in the business world and you have a jacket or a suit on it's armor. And so there's sort of a mental and physical sort of peeling off of armor when you have to face your own health challenges and what risks? That's exactly it. We're all the same when we're in a gym, right? You don't know if you're beside a person that's been at the gym for 20 years, and that works in a construction site. Or if a person that's in an office as a CEO, we're all even playing field there. And that's exactly, I think. Yeah, you could wear a suit every day to work, or you may not, but it doesn't matter at the gym. Great democratizing exactly exactly. You still got to pull the weights away at the end exactly. Yeah, now you're a business owner and you've had to invest a lot of your personal time and attention to get to where you are. How do you think about your own opportunities and how you've achieved them, you know? It's so funny that you asked that Catherine because I started my personal training studio when I was twenty six something like that. And so I basically worked for two years out of university and a woman that I was working with in corporate health. She came over for dinner one night and she's like we should just start our own personal training company. We want to do it. We want a really good space to train out if let's just do it. And literally we decided over a bottle of wine and dinner that night. We were going to do it. Next day we looked for business investors and we had it up and running in. I think 3 months we went to LA. We checked out gyms there. We thought this is what we want. We wanted our own private studio to train out of and it worked fantastic but it didn't even cross my mind at that age that it was taking a risk. It was so I think it was just now. I think I would be more nervous than I was then because it was just, I thought. Well, I'm if it doesn't work. Big deal.  And luckily it worked and it worked really, really well. So it was the there wasn't much thought. I'd love to tell you that it was something else and I was thinking about risk at the time, but I wasn't. It was just I thought, you know what I'm going to do it because it's what I want to do and I'll see if it worked and it did. So that's just unencumbered joy and enthusiasm about achieving something that was it. And both my friend and I were so passionate about it, and we both had many clients and we thought, well, we've got a full clientele. Now they're only going to like it more if we have great equipment and a great studio, and we did so. And as I said, there was hardly any other one in Vancouver at the time, so it just worked really well. It was good timing. Everything was good. I think there was a really good energy there. It was and we wanted to make it non intimidating. So because just as I was saying, I think that's the biggest thing when you walk into a fitness and health space. It's intimidation if you've never been in before, you don't know what to expect. And it's scary. So that's we wanted to welcome people with a smile and just be able to make people feel comfortable. And we did that. So back to health coaching. You mentioned a few of the things that you see in some of your clients. What do you think are some of the biggest risks in general for the people that you see? I think that my average clientele is probably 40 to 60 now, so the risks would definitely be cancer, heart attack, diabetes, stroke, lifestyle, diseases. In having high stress jobs. Alcohol intake too high. You know everything because my niche market is busy professionals and CEOs. They do a lot of business travel, a lot of entertaining and their high stress. So it's taking care of prioritizing  their health again as opposed to their business coming first. So prioritizing health. What would you say would be the top one, two or three things that people should do probably know they should do, but don't. The movement every day movement, meaning getting

    Strength comes through our mindset and the fuel we take in (S1E006)

  4. 07/02/2022

    Economics of positive growth - a Canadian recipe (S1E005)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale good for you? Hard to take.  Slavi Diamandiev and I first met when he was in management consulting and he killed it back then too. Smart driven and direct, which is why we get along. I enjoyed this podcast interview because his story reflects the incredible work ethic of new immigrants. For him arriving in Canada from Bulgaria, working three jobs to pay for school, and bootstrapping his success. And now for him in particular, it's because he knows his children's opportunity depends on it. He worries about what's next for this country and the theme of the conversation is that Canada's economy is at risk. We are not growing fast enough to dig ourselves out of the debt. As an economist who deliberately selected this country for its opportunity, he tells us how to fix it. But with that I'm just going to jump right in and I do appreciate your time. So thank you so much, let's do it. It's my pleasure. He's the practice lead for Deloitte Economic Advisory in Western Canada, and his clients are global private sector firms and federal and provincial public sector organizations from strategy consulting to economic impact modelling, he's a frequent speaker on economics and policy. Welcome to slavery de mandev.  OK, Slavy, you're in the business of predictions based on signal analysis and economics is a tough business and the world is roiling at the moment. It's got to be pretty tough to be an economist right now. It's actually a very good time to be an economist because everyone wants to know what's going to happen. So as long as you have a coherent explanation out there, there's a fair bit of demand for economic analysis. Well, what in your view is more of an economic risk? Is it COVID or is it the supply chain issues that resulted? Or is it a war in Europe?  OK, so of the three factors that you mentioned. My view is that the third one, the war, is probably introduces the most risk and uncertainty right now, and the reason I say that is because the ultimate outcome and impact of that of that event is going to be driven by political decisions, which is not something economics can predict for us. If I sort of go in order here, I think the the impact of of COVID is is now abating. We're seeing that as as more and more health restrictions are being lifted, and we're well on our track to returning to a pre COVID level of economic activity. Now there's always the chance that a new variant will come around and some of the health restrictions are going to have to be reintroduced, but I think we've learned how to cope with this. Particular virus and given the level of vaccinations, particularly in Canada, I would say that that risk is fairly limited on the supply chain question. There certainly continues to be struggles with a broad range of products. One of the reasons why this is happening is not only because of the COVID disruption which is disrupted, the ability of ships and trucks to move products around, but also because as a result of. Of COVID and the restrictions on services. People in mass have shifted their spending towards goods and so part of this is driven by the demand for goods which is sky high and is causes difficulties being met. And so I say that because I think as people's spending begin to shift back to more towards services and as we see the effects of interest rate increases tamper down people spending. I actually think those supply chain challenges are going to resolve themselves in the near future. Oh, that's interesting. Just naturally, they're just gonna fall off because the demand falls off. To a certain extent, and then on the other side,  I think with the restrictions coming coming off now, there's a lot more capacity in the system in ports and trucking companies, et cetera, et cetera to to simply move the goods faster. Now this isn't taking into account the effects of the war in Ukraine, which one of which is further exacerbation of the supply chain issues because. In areas such as energy exports, wheat exports, things have really grounded to a halt, and Ukraine and Russia export and in normal share of those products globally. We for example, is as high as 30% global exports come from these countries, and so the fact that there are ships stranded in the Black Sea not able to bring that way to market is causing a lot of anxiety, and it's likely going to result in some shortage of food. Quite frankly in the developed. Developing areas of the world and everywhere else it's going to result in higher prices and so that inflationary pressure is bad on its own. But then it would be even worse if it forces central banks to raise interest rates, which is then going to make the cost of living even higher. For people who have borrowed during the recession. So there's a chain of events here which can be very detrimental to people all over the world. One little known fact that would just mention is that Ukraine is actually a major exporter of Palladium as well as neon, and those are critical minerals that are used in semiconductors, and so this issue with Ukraine may actually impact the global supply of semiconductors, which are everywhere from cars to you know, household products and so those are the kinds of things that I think I can go really in a bad direction, even if the war. Self doesn't escalate to more countries just in the last decade,  we've had three major events globally that have just driven home how connected our economies are. Even a relatively small economy like Canadas. So we had this sort of the. The finance collapse, as it were, that just sort of swept through most of the Western nations and impacted sort of global issues and then COVID, which shocked everybody. No one saw it coming, and yet it had been predicted for generation. And now this terrible event that's happening in Eastern Europe. So this idea that Canada is so uniquely tied to this one country, I mean, obviously not just Canada, but many, many countries. And let's just focus on Canada now as the small economy in an interconnected world you've talked very clearly about what Canada needs to do, and maybe in the last couple weeks. Even more imperative. Let's talk about innovation and how we're going to get our double digit growth. As a country. OK, so maybe to set the the table here. One of the main challenges for Canada right now is that our long term rate of growth for our economy is very anemic. It's somewhere between one and a half and one point 8%. Let's say in that range, which is nowhere near where it needs to be to continue to improve our standard of life for the people here. Not to mention for us to be able to sort of grow out of the. Massive debt that we have accumulated over during COVID in many provinces in Canada, the provincial debt combined with the federal debt load is now over 100% of the provincial GDP, which is a bit of a red line  for economists, and so as much as people want to think about us growing out of this. The harsh realities that are long term growth is only explained by three factors. One is the rate of accumulation of capital in our country which relies on business investment and business investment has been a perennial weak spot in our economy. In fact, last year we saw a decrease in the capital stock in the country. So if you think about all the machinery and equipment that exists and all the productive real estate that exists in the country. The value of that actually declined because it's. You know, depreciating faster than businesses are investing in it, and that's a shocking statistic, I think. So that's one factor that's not going in our direction. The other one is the growth of the labor force. Obviously, if you want to have a bigger economy, one way to get there is to have more working people. And because of our demographic challenge, which is a combination of low fertility rates, you know rapid aging of our population, retirement of the baby boomers. Who are exiting the workforce that rate of growth of the workforce is also very low. It's probably around Let's say in the last level, the last factor is productivity. So the productivity of the labor and capital that you have. And this to me, is where a lot more focus needs to be put, because one way to be more productive is to be more innovative. Of course, to get there you need to. Put in place a lot of policy and. Sort of investments to make it happen. Some of it have to do with, you know the regulatory complexity and the tax burden that that folks face. Human capital  is a major driver of innovation and productivity. So for and so forth. So maybe I'll pause here and let you let you ask another question, OK? If Canada has these. You know very few levers, but extremely important ones. And part of the solution to more workers is to increase our immigration. Does Canada stand a chance when people can move to any country on the planet? And many are trying? Are we a safe enough and? And wealthy enough and environmentally clean enough country that we actually should have amazing talent moving to the country like, is that a trajectory that you would see in support? I think it's it's quite evident that people want to come and live here. Our immigration as a portion of our population is very high. I've been here since 2000 even in the time that I've been here, our population has gone up by millions, and that's going in the exact opposite direction in many other developed countries, particularly in Europe. And so I think there's

    Economics of positive growth - a Canadian recipe (S1E005)

  5. 07/02/2022

    Zoe Baxter on manifesting her best life (S1E004)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale. Good for you, hard to take.  I'm curious whether we make different risk decisions about choices in our career when we're in our 40s or 50s then we do when we're 19. I guess one thought is that we have a lot of lived experience and so by the time we're in the middle of our careers, maybe we are more reflective. We have more things that we worry about and so our tradeoff decisions take longer. And when we're 19, everything is possible and the world is right at our feet. That's one potential outcome, but maybe we actually have exactly the same risk tolerance when we're 19 that we do when we're 40 or 50, it's a question of our values and just what we want out of life. Hey I want to welcome Zoe to the podcast. Risk is the new kale Zoe. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me so Zoe is 19, a student and an international model. And she is represented by deja Vu model management. Hi, everyone. So great to have you with us, Zoe. I wanted to ask you some questions just because you're really seeing opportunity and this is a career. Hmm. You're weighing, you know, what are the risks and the rewards for this kind of career. So what is it that you you hope for from doing modeling at this point in your life? I hope for the opportunity just to travel and like meet new people around the world like growing up in a small town you get definitely can be isolating, so I'm excited to just explore and meet new people and hopefully get jobs and. Just have fun honestly. Yeah, that's so great. Good for you. You have such an open attitude. You're just like, OK, this is going to be a learning experience. I'm just like wanna go there and have fun and ignoring the experience like while I'm there right? And maybe you can describe where where are you gonna go? I'm going to Shanghai, China. So it's definitely a big jump from a small town to like the third largest city in the world. So  it's gonna be really exciting. I guess the thing I would be interested in knowing from you is what surprised you about modeling so far. Anyone can just do it and I think you need to put a lot of effort into actually get to where you want to be at. And for me like this took. Two years for me to get signed like internationally like I worked hard like I went to lots of conventions, did a lot of photo shoots and did like tried to do free work just to get signed internationally. So when you get to be my age and you look back on your career. What? What advice do you think you would have for the 19 year old self? I think my advice would be to be open minded and like. Open to new experiences, because definitely it's a culture shock from Canada to China and there's going to be differences. And also I just want to take risks and not let other peoples like perception of me or what I'm doing make me insecure and make me not want to do it. I just want to live my life to the fullest without letting other people affect what I do. I hope they my age Zoe remembers what? She told herself when she was 19. That's so great, yeah? What do you think of risk as the new kale as a podcast title? I love it. I love it so much. I actually was talking while we were eating dinner and we were eating kale and really excellent. And we were talking like. I think the only way to move forward in life is to take risks. And let yourself be vulnerable in front of other people. And if you don't do that, then you're going to be stuck in one place for like the rest of your life. And that's like kale, like you have to be healthy  and you have to better yourself in different ways. How do you know what is the right amount of risk when you think about decisions in your life, you've you're in school right now. And university. You have these really great friends and you've made a decision about what people are in your life like. How do you kind of think about trade offs and taking risks. I feel like everyone has this different perception of risk, like my like. Biggest risk could be someone's like smallest risk. You know, like it's also, it's all different. I just like wanted like not cave into my insecurities, not be insecure and be scared of like what people will say to me and so that's something I'm working on so. Because you're right, everybody does have different risk tolerance, yeah? Big risk for me is like jumping off a plane. And like skydiving, you know. But also a big risk for me is like putting myself out there. Maybe like in relationships or but like when you think about it. What's the worst thing that could happen from rejection? Exactly like who knows what goes on inside someone else's mind, right? Like the decisions that they're making. Maybe there's something going on that's deeply impactful for them and they just can't be in the present with you at that moment. Yeah, exactly. You can never like understand what another person is going through, so like someone else's reaction towards something like you do like it's all like in their hands. Kind of like I'm not gonna take something that someone said personally to me because maybe they're going through something that I don't know about and they're just putting their anger like I feel like there's a lot of people in the world that need to learn that lesson. Do you have a personal mantra? I don't know, I'm me and my friends are really into like manifesting and like we go on manifest drives. So like  it's like it sounds kind of cringe but it's just like we go and we just like talk about what we want. Like we already have it instead of like like wishing for it. We kind of like put our mindset to like we already have this and we're working towards it really well. How did you come up with that? Where did you learn that? Well my friend she's really into manifestations so like she. And I got me into it and then yesterday was like February  2022. So it's like So we two. Yeah, so we all went for like a minute. And it's just fun. It's just like all about like the intentions you put out. If you're putting out negative intentions, then you're not gonna move forward. I think it's like not even about like thinking the universe is going to great like give you something. It's like just putting your intentions into getting what you want. And working towards it and really just owning, owning your own place. Yeah right yeah. If risk is good but everybody has a different risk tolerance. How how would you suggest that your risk tolerance is may be different from other people in your life? I mean, besides this group of friends out doing your manifestation with, which is so great. Well, like for example my friend like in high school like she went to Germany and she decided to like live with a new family. Go to a whole new country where she didn't know anyone. Go to a new school with a different language and like all like that and I feel like. That's a different risk that she would take than I would take, you know. So like me, taking a risk of not enjoying somewhere I'm like at so I leave and like don't care about what other people's thoughts about it are. It's like the same level as just different situations. Kind of I don't know. Yeah, so almost like same way of parsing risk  but may be different priorities at this particular time in life. Yeah, I think like everyone right now everyone I'm talking to. Has like different things going on, it's not like when I was in high school where we all kind of had similar issues or similar thoughts about. I know high school things you know now it's like real life stuff that everyone's kind of like and all at different. Everyone's at a different point in their journey too, right? I guess that's the thing about 19 is you're an adult and your lives are starting to diverge and you may have very similar values because you all grew up in the same place and you're still friends. But as you say, there's different life circumstances, so you're kind of bringing maybe a different lens to each one of those. OK, I'm pretty sure when I was 19 I could not articulate a difference in a risk tolerance decision between me and my friends. I'm sure I could have said that they made different choices and I would have described those, but to have the language that I think young adults have today and. Maybe that part of what we've gone through in the last couple of years where we've actually had open conversations about the tradeoff between what society needs and what individuals must do or not do. Given that we've come through a pandemic. Perhaps some of that ability to describe opportunity through risk has now become just part of everyday language and very interesting, but also heartening to know that people are able to look into another person's decisions and perhaps way. A tolerance difference or a life timing, decision, difference and just allow that to be held by the other person without passing judgment. I think that's great. What's the riskiest thing you've ever done in your life? I think a big  risk for me was like when I decided to leave like the university I was going to, I think that was a big thing in my life because it wasn't just about my feelings. I was like scared about other people's like thoughts on it and I didn't want them to think about oh she left because she like couldn't do the school work or she couldn't do it like that was like a really vague like stressor for me when I left. And yet you overcame that. Yeah, like you were like, no, I need to make the right call for myself and I'm so happy I did.

    Zoe Baxter on manifesting her best life (S1E004)

  6. 07/02/2022

    Father-daughter duo on scaling Everest (S1E003)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale. Good for you, hard to take.  Say I'm super grateful that the two of you agreed to do this, and I was picturing what you were doing this morning, and I thought Liz, you probably went to your mom and dad's house for brunch and your dad has roped you into doing this to a woman you've never met. What is pretty accurate?  He's a board director and investor and a dad. He's had a stellar career as a very successful business person and philanthropist, and if he's all in, he's all in. She is his daughter. She's the youngest Canadian ever to have climbed the highest peak on all 7 continents. And she did all of that by the time she was 26 and then wrote a book and then became a firefighter. This is a family that doesn't do anything by have so welcome to John Rose and Liz Rose. Thank you so much for having us thank you. Oh, it's super to have you. OK so I'm going to start with the really big question first John is parents. What was it like waiting to hear from Liz to know if she had survived summiting Everest? Yeah, that's that's was quite a time. So maybe I'll back up and say we decided that when she was going to go and climb Everest that for those days. Everest is a two month journey where you're you know acclimatizing, et cetera. But when we got down to the three or four days, Susan and I decided to go to Salt Spring Island and be on a boat and just. Be together ourselves and then we got a phone call from a colleague that said, I hope Liz isn't climbing today because someone just died up there. And I know I just kind of thought, how could you do end up making a call like that? But what was interesting at the time? Because we didn't. We didn't have the time to to get too nervous about her venture to Everest because. Three weeks prior was when she had met. A fellow climber in Akagawa and decided and was invited to go to to Everest. But what was really interesting is we had everybody light a candle. To to  send her best wishes. Yeah, and it was. It was really interesting. There were just tons of people that really got behind Liz's quest. And then we heard that she had submitted. And then the worry began because it was what happens in the in the descent. Whenever you look at any of the climbing movies, it's not on the way up. It's on the way down. So we worried a lot. Tried not to. You heard from social media, so not directly from me for when I submitted exactly 0 communication. OK, yeah, so yeah. So zero communication from Liz. Heard from social media and then I'll let Liz tell some more of the story. But I happen to be in a colleague's office and I see this huge number come across my iPhone, which I figured it had to be a satellite phone. And I got so emotional that I just press the button and then spoke to Liz and it was. It was just emotionally overwhelming. I'd never had such a flood of emotion hit me like it did, so I think sometimes you you end up having this pentop feeling, and it isn't until you're able to just release that it. You know you think back and say wow that just uh, I'm so glad she's safe. Yeah, I had asked my mountain guy if I could call my parents from the top and they said like they would rather they had a satellite phone there but they're like no. I think it's best to wait until you're safely down to make that phone call so. Anyway, it's got down a couple days later and that was probably the most excited phone call I've ever made, so you had to wait like more than 24 hours to actually let them know what was that. Like for you knowing they were on the other side of the world,  worrying about you. Yeah, I just tried to stay focused. It was pretty treacherous coming down, so all my focus was on that and some of my group had stayed an extra night on the mountain at one of our first camps just to rest. But I had asked if I could go with a guide all the way down just to be down as safe as quick as possible so. Yeah, but I didn't realize anyone there was three people that had died while I was up there summitting, but we don't hear any of the news besides what's going on around us, so I was happy not to know any of that until I was down. It's amazing, I think this is one of the things I so admire about the two of you and Liz. Your your focus and your presence of mind in a very, very complex critical situation is something I'm really fascinated by because I'm talking to all these people who make these choices under quite a bit of pressure. And in that moment you know you focused on getting down safely because you're in the long game, you're going to survive this. Dissent and and your parents are in the long game too. In terms of their support, it's amazing. So your mom, Susan, wrote you a beautiful e-mail Liz? Well, you were at one of the camps preparing for the climb up Everest and she said, and this is in your book. Remember, the story is not about the summit. It's an amazing quote. So what does that mean to you? So I think she kind of just meant. Embrace every moment on the whole journey and don't be focused on only making it to the summit. Live in the moment and be present. And like surround yourself. Got to know the people you're with and just don't worry about  the outcome and enjoy. Kind of a lesson for life, isn't it? Do you think that you two are high amplitude people and by that I mean like you really experience life. So when you say live in the moment, you're not just like OK yeah, I'm living in the moment but you're like really taking it in. I'd like to do.  Well, it was interesting. One of the things that Liz was trying to get me into doing was entering the competition for Amazing Race Canada. Oh, good grief really. Yeah we made it to the final round of interviews we did. Yeah, and wow, yeah we had the one on one interview with him and and then I started to look at some of the things that they were getting them to do and I was thinking oh. You know, but anyway it was we we. We ended up not making it, which at once had gone through it. It was. I mean, it was great to go through, but I think it would have been something that would have been incredibly fun for us to have done. We were heartbroken that we didn't make it, but even the whole experience of making the videos and doing in person interviews and stuff was special. And that's really cool. Memories to look back on. Yeah, totally. You would have eaten ended up eating raw amphibians and stuff to get through.  Completely out of our comfort zones, but no, there's some pretty gross stuff on that. That's yeah, great awesome, so I feel like there are other adventures in your future. Do you have a sense of what those are?  My bucket list. I would absolutely love to go to space, so I'm trying to get John on board for that one. Nice. Oh dear, I actually had to reconcile because both of my kids said they would sign up for the Mars mission and I had to reconcile that what that meant. His parents might mean that you actually never see them again because. Yeah, I'd be right. I'd be right there with them.  My God, I can totally see it all right. So we're going to change gears because I really want to understand if you believe other families and yours have the same kind of conversations around the dinner table. What do you think?  That's that's a tough one to answer. We it wasn't though we had these kind of conversations around the dinner table. I think things started back when Liz's twin brothers were about 10 and a friend of mine who had twins said, you know, it's probably good to have a one on one trip with them on a regular basis, so they're not just the twins. And then when Liz. Got to be 10 or 11, she goes well. What about me? And so we started then having our one on one trips and that's really how it got started. And Kilimanjaro, I'll let Liz answer how she roped me into doing that. Umm? I was living in Toronto at the time looking for a job and didn't get my dream job instantly and so I just felt the need to go accomplish something and. I thought of the idea of climbing Kilimanjaro and then I was like, oh, you know, what like my dad might be interested. So I talked to my mom 1st and she's like, oh I don't know. But I mean if anyone can convince him it would probably be you. So yeah, and called you up. I had three weeks notice. I didn't have hiking boots. She gave you three weeks notice. Wow, yeah, nice of me. I think you said something like Liz. Do you have any idea how tall Kilimanjaro is not realizing what the next three years we're going to be about for her? Yeah, yeah, really. Just start out as another adventure and I sort of remember saying, do you think we can do it? And Liz says yes, Dad, we can do it. So I thought, OK, you know she's done the research and the way we went so Liz, I just want to ask you because you have this mantra that all you need is to say yes to your goals. And you really live your life that way. So tell me about following Kilimanjaro, how you actually knew that you were going to be determined about this next phase of your life. Yeah, so I feel like so many people talk about ideas that they want or goals that they want to achieve in life. But until you decide yourself  and take the first step of saying yes and doing research making plans. Right, it will then start to become a reality. So after Kilimanjaro, I absolutely loved it. I had no idea that it was going to lead to me climbing anymore mountains at all. I was working on a cruise ship at the time, so it was six months on two months off. So

    Father-daughter duo on scaling Everest (S1E003)

  7. 07/02/2022

    Painting more beauty into the world (S1E002)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale good for you? Hard to take. He paints dreamy, surreal canvases and is self taught. He's lived all over North America in some pretty tough neighborhoods, and he's a survivor of bullying and physical violence. He's a gentle, thoughtful artist who's been mentored and supported by some of Canada's most famous painters Gordon Smith and Richard Otiluke Axe. He believes that an artist rule is to break down barriers and social protocols. Welcome Tyler tapes. I think the intro. Yeah, it was good. OK right on so Tyler, when we first met we were at an auction where one of your paintings was going for an amazing sum. And your work has been compared to Expressionists, Vescia and Dekoning. But you're an authentic creator of exciting new paintings. What does it feel like when your work gets that kind of attention? Uh, feels good. It feels like I've accomplished something or I take kind of like risks in a way of like just. Putting myself out there and allowing myself to be vulnerable because I didn't know how that was going to go. And that day. And does it shock you when like a whole bunch of people are bidding like? Yeah crazy, but part of me felt like it was gonna go well, but I wasn't sure. So I was like. Don't didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket kind of thing. Well, you know I'm a huge admirer of your art and it seems to me to be alive with the figures that you paint. There are so many faces and they're all benevolent spirits. I think I've heard you describe them that way. It's beautiful and dynamic. There's a lot of energy. There's bold color and it incorporates the aesthetics of street art as well. What's the process for you of translating what's in your thinking onto the canvas? The process for me is actually down to the bare bones is like buying the canvas, buying the paint, the colors that I buy that day are gonna reflect what my how my paintings gonna turn out in the mood it's gonna give also life experience I draw from everything like a simple walk on a city sidewalk like and staring at all the detritus or the beauty. Or like the nice. Buildings in the rundown areas or the. Train yards or the. Subway system. It's all inspiration. I'm watching something I'm watching. I'm a viewer and also it's like when I paint the when I paint the paintings. It's like a mirror image of what's actually in my mind. umm In a strange way I draw from like life experience and in a lot of visual too things that. No one really looks at or doesn't even notice like in this city or wherever. I feel like those things I just will stare at for a long time, like if there's a nostalgic feel to like buildings and places and things where people congregate. That have been there for like centuries and centuries. Sounds to me like you pick up on the energy of the people that have been there before. Yeah, I do. I pick up on a lot of energy. Some would say like I pick up on certain energies that have been there and look at old photographs of like what that used to be or. Even living in places where like. A business used to be there on the street or whatever, and you used to go get your coffee there. Ohh, that's not there anymore. They tore that down, but like there's like neighborhoods where I grew up in, especially in Vancouver. It's happened a lot more. And you know, just, oh that's not there anymore. That's not there anymore and it will have like a new generation of people that don't even know what was there. And even before that. But also it has it carries like this energy. It's like intergenerational kind of yeah that are there. Yeah yeah yeah that's great. Is it hard to make a living as an artist? Yes, yeah, it's pretty can be pretty stressful to like. Make a living as an artist. But it's like what I love to do and it fuels my fire but also. It is hard to make a living sometimes like, especially if like things are happening in the world or whatever, especially with COVID and stuff and shows game cancelled and the business side of it. The business side of it, the financial. The I always felt like the collector and the artists have this unique relationship in this bond because. If there is no collector, how? How long can you go on making art? I still Make Heart but like I wouldn't be. Attached to it monetarily, I feel like the collector and the artist. It's very important because I'm sharing something with the collector and they like the painting or a piece of artwork or whatever and they get something from that painting. And in turn it helps the artists move forward with more art making. Yeah, it helps them with finances of like overhead of like making large scale paintings and stuff because you're not working in miniatures here. No, they're not miniatures, but I'm also it's like a boost of confidence too, cuz you know that people still believe in you and. You have all those great things to draw from as an artist. It's more than a business relationship. It's more than just a business relationship. It's not like, ooh, I sold the painting. Oh yeah, big box and stuff like that. It's not like that. It's good. I sold that painting and it's an accomplishment. But also I can feed myself. I can clothe myself, I could take care of myself and I can make more artwork to move forward. In the future and still build solid relationships with people and stuff so. Yeah, just try to be a productive member of society. But it's like this. It's like there's almost underground subculture of artists and collectors that are like that group together that when necessarily. Like meet each other in their own circles, right? Totally? So it's kind of like bridges. The gap between society and. Stereotypes and stuff so yeah. Yeah, I think that's that breaking down of social barriers piece. That's really important to you as well. Yeah, yeah, I'm really about that because like. When when people kind of like cast you away for. Being a different person or just like? Growing up in a different. Lower income neighborhood or something or. Whatever race color like. Religion or and also like financial like you can be like a fluent businessman or woman like and there's a lot of barriers. Yeah, like yeah yeah. What do your friends in the artistic community say about how the last two years of the pandemic has affected them? How has it affected some of the folks that you know and work with? I know that it's affected a few peoples, some people were. Still doing OK, but I know that some artists were struggling and stuff. I know a lot of friends that were like struggling financially and I was too, but I didn't let that stop me. Make do with what you have and. Yeah, we could leave the small small paint budget and still having faith in myself and my art practice and having faith that things will get better. Yeah. But I know that like some of my friends were. I don't know. It's like some of them were struggling, but everyone seemed to make it through it like. Where that resiliency comes from? Maybe it's just the collective takes care of one another, but. There are very interesting parts of society that we're super resilient through the pandemic. I know you were raised in East Bend, Windsor ON South Bend IN. Yeah, where was the best place that you lived like those are all very different weather places and I also lived in Dominican Republic when I was really young. But I'd say I like the weather there, but I. I kind of take a bit from every place where I lived, like take a little snippet of it and and just I like what it has to offer in that area. You know in South Bend you could easily. Just go to Chicago or something for like. A day trip or whatever, so. That was fun, and you're close to other big cities too, but. In Windsor you can go to Detroit and that's like really good for music and I had a lot of friends in Detroit that would like come over. And to Windsor, and we would on the weekends, we'd have dance all parties and stuff in the basements and the West side I grew up in East Windsor. But yeah, there's like all kinds of things, and when the weather is nice, it's like. It's kind of. It's different like the East Coast or whatever, and living in the Midwest. It was different living in the states there was like a bit of a like different because I'm in a different country, but it's still North America. But it's like there's a lot of different things going on. You know, like it was very fast paced and. You could feel culturally that it was different, yeah, and generally people were like. Friendly like they were, they were just like. If you wanted trouble like where I lived, you could easily go find it if you wanted it, but. Is good to steer clear of that like. A lot of people had their heads screwed on straight, you know? But not saying that I was the best child, but is there such a thing as a best? I don't know what the best child is anyway. Yeah, I would like to talk about a subject that you've talked openly about before, but I think it's also wanna be really respectful of the fact that you live with a mental illness and you are diagnosed with schizophrenia at 19. Tell me about what it means for you to. I was I was diagnosed with schizophrenia but I also was just rediagnosed with PTSD, but I'm like doing a lot of like healing around that therapy and stuff. And just like taking care of my mental health and. And I was like misdiagnosed for like so long. Is it's like a hard topic. Obviously to talk about like you just don't tell your first date or anyone or like a new frien

    Painting more beauty into the world (S1E002)

  8. 07/01/2022

    Work, play, and robots…where do AI ethics begin and end (S1E001)

    Credits: Music Track Title: Everybody Loves a Catastrophe; Licence type: Standard Licence; Artist: Twirl; Composer: Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault (SOCAN); Publisher: Lynne Publishing (PRS - CAE#: 541626758) Logo Artist: Avril Orloff; Outsidethelines.ca Transcript: Welcome to the podcast. Risk is the new kale. Each episode I talk with folks who have figured out how to extract opportunity from risk. As someone who has spent a career controlling risk, I want to know those who embrace it. Risk is the new kale good for you? Hard to take.  Doctor AJung Moon is remarkable. She chose a field of study that quite simply no one was looking at at the time. This podcast examines the issues of potential conflicts between humans and machines from an expert in responsible design of robots and artificial intelligence. Ajang and I first met when she launched a consulting company called the Open Robotics Institute in order to offer ethics reviews of organizations deployment of AI. To say that she opened my eyes is an understatement. And to this day the work that she and her team did instilled the language of AI ethics into that particular organization's DNA.  OK, here we go. She is an experimental roboticist specializing in ethics and responsible design of interactive robots and autonomous intelligence systems. A professor at the University of McGill, she founded the Open Robotics Institute and she has advised the UN Secretary General's High Level panel on digital cooperation as well as the government of Canada's Council on Artificial Intelligence. Welcome to Doctor AJung moon. Hello, thanks for having me. It's great to have you OK adjunct. What is a robo ethicist? This is a job title that really didn't exist five years ago. Yeah, I think I just made my own job title. And I think that the ruble athesis is still a term in making. Robert, this is essentially means people people like myself who may be robotics is really looking into ethics and trying to understand the ethical implications of the things that we build and try to bring it up, but not so consider the ethical implications during the design phase. And there are also robot SSS or people who I would qualify as Robot FSS who are actually studying the ethical implications on the whole of robotics, generally speaking. Even you know, even if they may not be designing the robots themselves. Yeah, I love that you believe technology is a superpower for humans. So what is the role of autonomous  systems in society? You're asking a very tricky question here because I think I think technology is still. I still believe that technology is a superpower because I think we can do so many interesting and powerful things using technologies that we were never able to do so before.  And at the same time we are in this era where we can start to think about machines that are autonomous and intelligent and they can do massively scalable things for us so. If I were to say technology, broadly speaking is a superpower for humans, I would say autonomous systems are like superpower plus plus, it allows us to do things much faster, much more in in mass in ways that we never envisioned before. But in terms of the role of autonomous systems in our society, I think that's something I'm still trying to figure out. Because I don't think we have a very close ended answer on that question. Well, that I think that bounces to the next question I have for you, which is societies perception of risk associated with robotics and autonomous systems. There's sort of this perception. Maybe that's maybe quite different from the reality. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, when we when we talk about risk and robots, I think traditionally we were thinking about oh robots working around robots can be dangerous. We want to separate robots out from humans because what if robots end up punching you? That's the physical risk and that's something we can really wrap our heads around and put some barriers on top. But then there's also the sci-fi notion of  risk with respect to robots. Which is things like Terminators. We might have this great robots that we trust, and we have all over the world and maybe all of a sudden they will just turn on us. And that's how things will go bad. But I think that the kind of risks that I study is really more about the risk that come from the interaction between humans and robots coexisting in a space.  And it's not necessarily like a Terminator that will. That is out to get you, but it's really more about how much of faulty things will we end up believing because of robot is telling us this particular information. So really changing almost the way that we interact with our world, and much less about a physical safety. It's more kind of shifting societal behavior in a way is what you're looking at.  Yeah, I think there's a lot that I'm discovering about human behavior. Some of our psychological effects or our behaviors can be predicted because a great example could be a robot that moves super fast, as though is punching you just about to punch you, but it's program not to punch you. It will stop a few millimeters in front of your face. You probably will. Respond without even thinking about it by blinking, maybe ducking, maybe shying away and having this fear response where your your palms will get sweaty and your heart rate will go up. Those are things that we probably won't be able to control. These are bodily reactions that are built into us, but by programming the robot to move in such a way, I cannot predictively elicit that response in you isn't that powerful? Yes, that's so interesting, that's. In a way kind of the managing the ethical and moral responsibility not to elicit a response that is. Is not something that we wish to respond with, but it's actually tapping into kind of the just as you say, the physiological response. That's automated because of the nature of us being human beings. That's really interesting. Yeah, part of it could be also also purely psychological as well. One really interesting study done in 2018 by Robinet Al. They were really interested in this effect of Overthrust. Will people trust robots in such a dangerous level that we need to start to worry about it and so they created this experiment where they introduce these people to a robot that they are working? And they said, oh, it has this  kind of little flag on it. We're trying to design it so that it can guide you towards a fire exit if there is any case of fire in the building. By the way, the just in case there is fire during the experiment, the exit is this way and they would give them all the safety orientation and they said because the robot is is still a prototype. It's faulty, it's not going to direct you in the right direction, so don't follow the robot and lo and behold, they fake triggered this fire alert and they watched people whether they follow the robot towards supposed exit or they go towards the exit. They have been told is the right. And they saw that majority of the participants actually follow the robot towards a dead end. Really, that's the kind of humanoid robot. Do you think that had something to do with it? No, it was just that was an instruction that they had in the immediacy. So they followed it exactly. It doesn't look humanoid at all. It's literally like a boxy cylindrical thing that moves with things sticking out of it. Nothing too sophisticated, right? So you would think like, why would humans do this? This is not the kind of risk that we. We have in mind when we build these and now we are starting to think about this interactive behaviors that are really quirky when we put robots in the room. Would you describe that level of interaction as a conflict between humans and machines?  Yeah, I, I think we can think about it as a form of conflict, but a form of conflict that we have yet to uncovered because when we talk about conflicts, I think we envision this direct kind of head-to-head kind of conflict. But in this particular scenario about the experiment with over trusting of robots. The robots don't really have intentions, they're just machines. They're just programmed to do whatever they're programmed to do, and many times they will fail as well. In that sense, we can't really frame things going wrong from this interaction, as though it is really about human human conflict, headbutting of differences, opinions or intentions or desires, because in a way a lot of it is very one sided. Oh interesting, yes. Yes, we have a lot of accountability in that as the human. Yeah, as a user, especially with the punching robot example that I gave you. What, how, how much of that interaction would I say is about accountability? How much of my physiological response, the threat response? What I say is part of my control and how much of things that I can control about myself. Can I say is something I can be accountable for? These are open ended questions. Yeah, well where do you place the accountability of the designer and the programmer of the robot? Then in that interaction did they hold the majority of the ethical accountability right now? No, I would say this is a very contentious topic. Very open-ended issue right now, especially when it comes to self driving cars and some of the accidents that we have seen. We're really looking at the limitation. Between what humans can do. And what robots are very good at and we have situations where we are getting people to monitor these systems. That majority of the times they work perfectly fine, but humans are there to catch that 10% of the time or 5% the failure modes. But if the system has been working fine for the majority of the times, you're not going to pay attention to this. You're going to be complacent about it. Automation  complacency is a behavior that we understand very well. In human machine interaction. And yet, with the kind of systems that we are seeing with human testers, we actually hold the human tes

    Work, play, and robots…where do AI ethics begin and end (S1E001)
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Conversations with risk-takers on how to extract opportunity from risk. Risk is the new kale - good for you, hard to take.

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