How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty

Emma Mclean
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Working and having a family is hard. But what is really fatiguing is that it is only mothers that pay a penalty when they become parents. It is only mothers that pay an up to 60% salary penalty over the first five years of establishing their family. Only mothers that see their retirement savings penalised because of the caregiving requirements they are fulfilling. And only mothers that get sidelined in their careers because of the lack of quality part time roles. In this podcast we are going to get curious about the system that creates the motherhood penalty and curious about the solutions that are going to smash it. We will talk to some of the experts who are actively smashing it, find out their story and figure out what we can learn from them. Hosted by Emma Mclean, CEO & Founder of Works for Everyone, this is a punchy, practical, and peppered with laughter podcast that equips listeners with ideas they can take back to their homes and workplaces to help smash the motherhood penalty.

  1. 6d ago

    Believing in Your Bigness: How High-Achieving Mothers Step Into Their Power with Kat Francis

    So many experienced, high-achieving women return from parental leave only to find themselves treated less like a strategic asset and more like a workplace liability. Faced with rigid expectations and zero room for growth, it’s easy to slip into survival mode, take a demotion, or quietly settle for roles that no longer challenge or inspire. In this episode, Emma welcomes Melbourne-based, Kiwi-born leadership and ambition coach Kat Francis. With two decades of experience in senior agency leadership across Australia and New Zealand, Kat shares her personal journey of quitting a top agency career to rebuild a lifestyle where work and life align. She and Emma explore why high-performing mothers struggle to admit what they actually want, how to transition from simply surviving to actively choosing your next step, and why the personal growth gained through motherhood is actually an unrecognised leadership bonus. Kat also shares practical tactics for managing household dynamics with a partner, letting go of the rigid 50/50 split, and walking into career negotiations with unshakeable confidence. In This Episode, You'll Learn: The "Refined Ambition" Shift: Why experienced, senior women often fall out of love with their careers post-kids and how to step back to figure out what you actually want.The Motherhood Bonus: Reframing the experience of raising children as a massive leadership development upgrade that builds boundaries, focus, and drive.Moving Beyond Survival Mode: Recognising that while survival mode is a necessary phase for young families, you cannot set up camp there permanently.The Directorship Approach to Home Life: Why Kat prefers allocating domain "directorships" (like Director of Holidays or Director of Maintenance) over tracking every minor household task."With or Without You" Negotiation Energy: How stepping into your value and dropping the fear of rejection makes you unbeatable in career transitions.Believing in Your Bigness: Giving yourself permission to stop settling for crappy or stagnant roles just because you're a mother. Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  2. Sep 28

    Care, Education, and Equity: Jan Tinetti’s Vision for Working Families

    Despite progress in workplace policy, modern mothers still face a pervasive culture that minimises their professional capabilities, limits career progression, and leaves them carrying the default parenting load. The systemic barriers facing working parents aren't just financial, they're deeply embedded in cultural expectations of who does the caring. In this episode, Emma is joined by former Minister for Women and current Labour MP Hon Jan Tinetti. Drawing from her personal journey as a school principal, cancer survivor, and mother navigating high-pressure careers while supporting a sick partner, Jan offers a raw, lived perspective on the stigma attached to working mothers. She and Emma explore how central government can lead systemic change, why the first 2,000 days of a child's life should be the ultimate focal point for public investment, and why early childhood education must be treated as a transparent public good rather than a corporate profit engine. Emma and Jan unpack what it takes to shift society's perception of caregiving, the necessity of paid partner leave, and how community-led initiatives are already leading the way. In This Episode, You'll Learn: The Stigma of the Working Mother: Jan shares her powerful personal experience of community pushback while working as a principal during a family health crisis.Disrupting Default Roles: How shifting primary caregiving responsibilities to partners challenges entrenched gender stereotypes (and the social friction that comes with it).Rethinking Early Childhood Education: Why transparency in ECE funding matters, and how to balance affordability, quality, and public investment.The Family Hub Model: Looking to international examples like the UK to build wraparound support systems for parents from maternity onward.Community-Led Solutions: Highlighting local initiatives like Safari Playgroups in Auckland that empower migrant and refugee mothers through connection, education, and belonging.The Magic Wand System Lever: Reorganising government funding and social strategy around the first 2,000 days of a child's life to support both the child and the parent. Community Feature: Learn more about the work of Safari Playgroups in Henderson, supporting migrant and refugee mothers in Tāmaki Makaurau / Auckland: https://www.belong.org.nz/safari-playgroups-1 Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  3. Sep 21

    The Economic Value of Unpaid Work: Qiulae Wong on Systemic Political Reform

    The traditional eight-hour workday was built for an industrial era that simply no longer reflects how modern families live or work. While workplaces slowly adapt to hybrid setups, the systemic pressure on working parents. And the long-term financial hit taken by mothers, remains largely unaddressed. In this episode, Emma kicks off a special series bringing political leaders into the conversation to explore real, systemic solutions to the motherhood penalty. First up is Qiulae Wong, leader of The Opportunity Party (TOP) and mum of two. Drawing on her career in purpose-led business and corporate sustainability, Qiulae breaks down why our current economic structures leave parents struggling, how a universal safety net could reshape family life, and why New Zealand urgently needs to rethink how we value caregiving. Emma and Qiulae explore the harsh realities of returning to work after children, the hidden costs of early childhood education, and why fixing the motherhood penalty requires bold economic reform rather than small policy tweaks. In This Episode, You'll Learn: Asynchronous Working: How flexible, outcome-focused workplaces create environments where caregivers, parents, and businesses actually thrive.The Citizen’s Income Proposal: How a universal payment model provides a genuine safety net for parents taking time out of the paid workforce for caregiving.Childcare as Essential Infrastructure: Why early childhood education requires better funding standards, lower ratios, and broader choices to stop parents feeling trapped on a financial hamster wheel.The Shared Leave Gap: Why government parental leave payments must evolve to support both parents fully without driving families into financial distress.The Missing NZ Data: Why New Zealand must follow international models to track and measure the true, long-term impact of the motherhood penalty on women's earnings and KiwiSaver balances. Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  4. Sep 14

    Intentional Conversations & Whiteboards: Managing Work and Family with Jessie & Brendan

    Navigating a fast-paced career, higher education, board governance, and ultra-marathon training is a massive feat on its own. Add two young kids into the mix, and keeping a dual-career family on the tracks requires more than just goodwill. It takes real systems, radical transparency, and constantly checking in on intentions. In this episode, Emma sits down with dual-career Auckland couple Jessie (Product Compliance Manager, MBA candidate, and ECE Board Director) and Brendan (Banking Marketing Technologist and Ultra-Marathoner). Jessie and Brendan open up about how they move past default parenting roles, handle the invisible mental load without getting defensive, and use physical tools like visual whiteboards to keep their household running smoothly. They also unpack what it really takes to build a village when family support isn't always around, and why society needs to build better support structures for dads if we ever want true gender equity at home and at work. In This Episode, You'll Learn: Intentions vs. Actions: How moving from internal assumptions to vocalising intentions prevents daily resentment over household tasks. Unpacking the Mental Load: Brendan’s journey from feeling defensive about default-parenting critiques to actively taking ownership of cognitive and emotional tasks. Systems That Actually Work: Why physical whiteboards, Sunday night schedule check-ins, and calling out when you’re "low sync" keep busy households running. Early Childhood Education as Infrastructure: Jessie breaks down why accessible, flexible ECE funding is a critical economic lever for protecting women’s long-term earning potential and Kiwisaver. Building a Community "Village": Creative strategies for trading off parenting duties with neighbours and friends when family isn't nearby. The Magic Wand Solutions: Why mandating 50% female representation in senior leadership and building dedicated dad support networks are vital system levers. Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  5. Sep 7

    Invoicing the Patriarchy: Ash BG on Quantifying the Mental Load

    When you’re pregnant with your first child, the return-to-work plan feels straightforward. But for so many mothers, the reality of unyielding corporate cultures, zero workplace flexibility, and an unsettled baby closes the doors on that career plan fast. It isn’t a choice. It’s running out of options. In this episode, I’m joined from across the Tasman by writer, content creator, and app founder Ash BG (known online as @youwantedthis). After being backed into a corner and forced to quit her corporate PR job post-maternity leave, Ash began pulling back the curtain on weaponised incompetence, systemic inequality, and the mental load. What started as viral content quickly evolved into a thriving Substack community and the creation of Tether, an app designed to track, measure, and rebalance unpaid domestic and emotional labour. We dig into the uncomfortable reality of modern parenting: why being married to "one of the good guys" still leaves mothers exhausted, how the system actively conditions men to benefit from unpaid labour at home, and why true equity at work is impossible until we fix the default parent dynamic. In This Episode, You'll Learn: The Return-to-Work Illusion: How rigid workplace structures push ambitious women out of traditional careers and into freelancing or forced departure.The "Good Guy" Paradox: Why mothers in progressive, loving partnerships are still drowning under the cognitive and emotional load.Quantifying Unpaid Labour: How Ash’s app, Tether, creates a neutral, data-driven starting point for couples to track physical, mental, and emotional tasks (including invoicing the patriarchy).The Breadwinner Dynamic: Unpacking the financial vs. domestic value trap and why a higher salary shouldn't grant a free pass from home responsibilities.The Magic Wand Solution: Why mandating paid parental leave for men from day one is the single most critical lever for closing the motherhood penalty. Resources: Connect with Ash BG on Instagram @youwanted.this Download Tether: The Mental Load App on the Apple App Store to track, log, and rebalance domestic load in your home: https://tether-app.co/ Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  6. Aug 31

    Fatherhood, Flexibility and te ao Māori with Tāmati Rimene-Sproat

    I'm joined this week by a repeat offender, Tāmati Rimene-Sproat, TV presenter and host of Counting the Beat, who's now 18 months into fatherhood. We first met when Tāmati interviewed me for the show before he'd even had his son, so I wanted him back to talk about what those 18 months have actually been like on the other side. Tāmati is refreshingly honest about the highs and lows: the sleep deprivation, the "no one tells you how hard this actually is" reality, and how quickly it all flies by. We talk about how he and his wife have navigated juggling two careers with unpredictable schedules, why they're determined to build an equal household rather than default into traditional roles, and how a genuinely flexible, empathetic production team gave him the space to be a hands-on dad from day one. Tāmati also shares a beautiful te ao Māori lens on what it means to put people, not productivity, at the centre of how we work, and why that shift would change everything for parents and kids alike. This is a warm, honest, big-hearted conversation about fatherhood, flexibility and what "good" can actually look like when employers lead with empathy. In This Episode, You'll Learn: What surprised Tāmati most about becoming a dad, and why the biggest shock was how fast it all goesHow he and his wife are navigating two unpredictable careers and building an equal householdWhat it looked like when his production company said "don't even ask" to three months at homeWhy Tāmati believes his experience isn't yet the norm, especially for dads asking for flexibilityThe te ao Māori concept of putting people at the centre, and what that could mean for how we all workWhy empathy from employers doesn't just help families, it builds loyalty and lifts productivityTāmati’s magic wand: a system that lets every parent experience what he has, so the motherhood penalty stops falling on mothers alone Resources: Te Whare Tapa Whā is a holistic Māori health model developed by Sir Mason Durie in 1984 that compares wellbeing to a four-walled meeting house. The whakataukī that Tāmati referred to is "Ko te piko o te māhuri, tērā te tupu o te rākau" The way the young sapling is shaped (or bent) determines how the tree will grow Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  7. Aug 24

    Davinnia Tan: Pumping Milk in a CCTV Room and Other System Failures

    I'm joined this week by Davinnia Tan, an employment relations leader who has served as a member of the Employment Relations Authority, an independent reviewer of ACC decisions, and a peer reviewer for workplace investigations. While serving as a member, Davinnia became only the second person in the ERA's 25-year history to have a baby, and what followed was a front-row education in just how far Aotearoa's institutions still have to go when it comes to caregiving. Outside her day-to-day work, she writes Ngākau Reworked, exploring the motherhood penalty and matrescence through a tikanga-informed lens. Davinnia shares the confronting reality of being declined a four-day week with no reasons given, having to choose between full-time daycare or leaving her statutory role, and being told to pump breast milk in a CCTV hearing room with the screens covered. We talk about the stark contrast between her experience and her husband's, whose employer became part of their village, and what that taught her about the power of paid partner's leave. We also get into why New Zealand hasn't measured the motherhood penalty since 2018, has never measured the working dad experience at all, and what Sweden's 50 years of parental leave reform can actually teach us about what works. This is a conversation about systems, statistics and the deeply personal cost of a country that still treats caregiving as a "nice to have." In This Episode, You'll Learn: What happened when Davinnia was declined a four-day week with no reasons given, and the impossible choice it createdWhy being a statutory officer meant she had no rights under the Parental Leave and Employment ActHow her husband's supportive employer became "the village" that held their family togetherWhy New Zealand hasn't measured the motherhood penalty since 2018, and has never measured the working dad experienceWhat Sweden's "use it or lose it" parental leave reforms reveal about what actually shifts father engagementWhy flexible working needs consistency, not just policy, to stop pushing mothers out of the workforceHow outcomes-based, output-focused job design could ease pressure on managers without more red tapeDavinnia's case for parental support to be recognised internationally as a human rightHer message to any dad on the fence about taking parental leave Resources discussed: https://substack.com/@ngkaureworkedhttps://www.instagram.com/ngakau.reworked/ShortChanged - The Pay Equity Podcast Investigation Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

  8. Aug 17

    A Slight Detour: Jayne Chater on Navigating Career and Family

    I'm joined this week by Jayne Chater, executive coach, leadership development specialist, and author of A Slight Detour: A Guide to Navigating Family and Career. Jayne has spent decades helping women accelerate their careers at every stage of life, and she brings both professional expertise and lived experience to this conversation as a mum of three navigating a blended whānau of nine. We get honest about what the motherhood penalty actually feels like from the inside: the guilt of going back to work early, the guilt of staying home, and the quiet resentment that builds when caregiving roles are simply assumed rather than discussed. Jayne shares her own story of being thrown into senior leadership in her mid-20s, navigating pregnancy with no paid parental leave as a self-employed woman, and the moment she realised the expectations at home had never actually been talked about, just inherited. We dig into what employers can do differently (starting with checking assumptions, not policies), what mothers can control when everything feels like it's on fire, and why learning to say "full stop, silence" instead of over-explaining might be one of the most powerful career tools going. We close with three magic wand wishes that get right to the heart of a system that still doesn't value caregiving. This is a warm, funny, deeply honest conversation for anyone juggling career and caregiving and wondering if anyone else feels this exhausted too. In This Episode, You'll Learn: Why the motherhood penalty shows up on both sides, guilt at work and guilt at homeWhat happens when caregiving roles are assumed rather than discussed with a partnerWhy "checking your assumptions" matters more than any parental leave policyHow to stop apologising and over-explaining, and why "full stop, silence" changes everythingWhy sickness in the family should be spoken about as a household issue, not a personal failingThe difference between coming back "down" after a career break versus coming back "on"Why knowing your yes and your no (and sticking to it) protects your time and energyJayne's three magic wand wishes: unlimited household support, work valued on impact not hours, and six months' fully paid leave for both parents Book: A Slight Detour: A Guide to Navigating Family and Career - https://jaynechater.com/book Connect with Emma This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping. To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz www.worksforeveryone.co.nz https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

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Working and having a family is hard. But what is really fatiguing is that it is only mothers that pay a penalty when they become parents. It is only mothers that pay an up to 60% salary penalty over the first five years of establishing their family. Only mothers that see their retirement savings penalised because of the caregiving requirements they are fulfilling. And only mothers that get sidelined in their careers because of the lack of quality part time roles. In this podcast we are going to get curious about the system that creates the motherhood penalty and curious about the solutions that are going to smash it. We will talk to some of the experts who are actively smashing it, find out their story and figure out what we can learn from them. Hosted by Emma Mclean, CEO & Founder of Works for Everyone, this is a punchy, practical, and peppered with laughter podcast that equips listeners with ideas they can take back to their homes and workplaces to help smash the motherhood penalty.

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