Cleave: The Podcast

Jon and Ashley Lefrandt
  • 4.8 (24)
  • Relationships
  • Updated Weekly

🌿 Cleave: The Podcast We’re Jon & Ashley Lefrandt. Cleave is a faith-centered podcast about marriage, boundaries, family systems, healing, and holding fast to truth. As followers of Christ, we talk honestly about leaving unhealthy patterns and cleaving to God, your spouse, your covenants, and what is true — especially when family pressure, manipulation, spiritual confusion, or relational pain make that difficult. We explore Christlike boundaries, forgiveness, reconciliation, emotional safety, and generational healing. Books, resources, and support: leavethencleave.com

  1. We Don’t Talk About Bruno: Encanto, Family Trauma & The Scapegoat Story

    May 27

    We Don’t Talk About Bruno: Encanto, Family Trauma & The Scapegoat Story

    Was Encanto really about magic… or was it about family trauma? In this episode of Leave Then Cleave, Jon and Ashley unpack Disney’s Encanto through the lens of family systems, generational trauma, scapegoating, emotional roles, truth-telling, and healing. Why did We Don’t Talk About Bruno resonate with so many people? Why did Mirabel feel so familiar to those raised in emotionally complicated families? And what happens when one person in the family starts noticing the “cracks” everyone else wants to ignore? Together, we explore: • Abuela and generational trauma — how unhealed pain becomes family culture• Mirabel as the truth teller — and why truth tellers often become scapegoats• Bruno and estrangement — why families sometimes exile the person who sees too much• Luisa, parentification & pressure — the burden of being “the strong one”• Isabella and perfectionism — the hidden pain of the golden child• Family homeostasis — why systems resist change, even when they’re hurting people• Healing after dysfunction — what Encanto surprisingly gets right about repair If you’ve ever felt like the one who saw the cracks… the one asking hard questions… or the one who became “the problem” for telling the truth, this episode is for you. Topics discussed:Family trauma, family systems theory, scapegoat child, emotional immaturity, toxic family dynamics, Christian healing, estrangement, truth tellers, parentification, golden child dynamics, boundaries, generational healing, emotional health, Encanto explained. 📘 Grab our new book, Christlike Boundaries and more on on our website www.leavethencleave.com 🎙️ Subscribe to Leave Then Cleave for honest conversations on faith, family systems, boundaries, healing, marriage, and emotional health. We are so grateful you are here! Also find us on social @leave_then_cleave (instagram, tiktok and facebook!)

    57 min
  2. Episode 56. Love Is Not Compliance: The First Truth of Christlike Boundaries

    May 19 ·  Bonus

    Episode 56. Love Is Not Compliance: The First Truth of Christlike Boundaries

    For many Christians, the hardest part of setting a boundary is not the boundary itself. It is the guilt. The fear that saying no means you are selfish.The fear that needing space means you are unforgiving.The fear that limiting access means you are dishonoring your family.The fear that protecting your marriage, your home, your peace, or your children somehow means you are failing to love like Jesus. That is exactly why we wrote Christlike Boundaries. In this special episode, Jon reads the introduction and Chapter 1 of Christlike Boundaries, the new book from Jon and Ashley Lefrandt. Chapter 1, “Love Is Not Compliance,” begins with the core truth every Christian needs before they can understand boundaries clearly: love is not proven by endless availability, emotional over-responsibility, or keeping everyone comfortable. Jesus was perfectly loving, but He was not compliant. He was merciful, but He was not manipulated. He was peaceful, but He did not preserve false peace. He was full of grace and truth. If you have ever wondered, “Can I set boundaries and still be Christlike?” this episode — and this book — were created for you. Buy Christlike Boundaries on Amazon. Listen, reflect, and ask yourself: Where have I mistaken compliance for love? For more resources and to stay connected, check out our Website: www.leavethencleave.com or find us on Instagram, Tiktok and Facebook @leave_then_cleave !

    30 min
  3. 55. How to Recognize the Fruits of True Repentance

    May 12

    55. How to Recognize the Fruits of True Repentance

    How can you tell if someone has truly repented? In this episode of Leave Then Cleave, Jon and Ashley talk about one of the most confusing dynamics in faith-based families: when someone claims repentance but refuses accountability, repair, or honest conversation about the harm they caused. Using Christ’s teaching that “by their fruits ye shall know them,” they explore the difference between true repentance and counterfeit repentance, godly sorrow and image management, discernment and judgment, forgiveness and restored trust. This conversation is not about becoming the judge of someone’s soul. It is about learning to recognize fruit: humility, confession, restitution, changed behavior, concern for those harmed, and a willingness to become safe. For anyone who has been told, “I already repented, so you need to move on,” or “That is between me and God,” this episode offers language, clarity, and a Christ-centered framework for discerning whether repentance has actually produced change. Learn more at leavethencleave.com.

    40 min
  4. 54. When They Won’t Change | Forgiveness, Reconciliation, and Christlike Boundaries

    May 6

    54. When They Won’t Change | Forgiveness, Reconciliation, and Christlike Boundaries

    This is Part 2 of our conversation with Rachel Wood on boundaries. In Part 1, we talked about why boundaries are not unchristlike, how people-pleasing can become a form of control, and why healthy love requires truth, agency, and self-respect. In Part 2, we move into one of the hardest questions many people face: What do you do when you are trying to get healthy, but the other person does not want accountability, honesty, repentance, or change? For many people of faith, this is where boundaries become deeply personal. We may understand the idea of boundaries in theory, but when it touches our family, our marriage, our loyalty, our guilt, or our desire to forgive, it can become incredibly difficult to know what is loving, what is wise, and what is safe. In this episode, we talk about forgiveness versus reconciliation, manipulation, spiritual pressure, addiction, accountability, discernment, and what it means to recognize fruit rather than simply trust words. Because forgiveness is a commandment. But reconciliation requires repentance, honesty, safety, and changed behavior. Those are not the same thing. If you have ever felt pressure to keep forgiving while harmful patterns continue, or wondered whether setting a boundary means you are failing to be Christlike, this conversation will help give language to what you may already be sensing. And if this topic feels personal right now, we invite you to join us for our May Healing Webinar Series, where we’ll continue walking through painful family dynamics, boundaries, estrangement, guilt, grief, spiritual pressure, and practical next steps for healing. You can learn more about the webinar series, our book Leave Then Cleave, and our other resources at leavethencleave.com.

    51 min
  5. 53. Boundaries Are Not Unchristlike | Why Love Requires Truth, Agency, and Self-Respect

    May 4

    53. Boundaries Are Not Unchristlike | Why Love Requires Truth, Agency, and Self-Respect

    One of our most-listened-to conversations is back. This episode originally aired a couple of years ago, when our podcast had a different name and a much smaller audience. But as our community has grown, we realized that many of you have probably never heard this conversation before, and it continues to be one of the most important discussions we’ve ever had. In this episode, we are joined by our friend Rachel Wood for Part 1 of a two-part conversation on boundaries. For many people of faith, boundaries can feel uncomfortable. We may wonder if saying no is selfish, if self-advocacy is unkind, or if creating distance means we are failing to forgive. But healthy boundaries are not the opposite of Christlike love. They are often what make real love possible. In Part 1, we talk about what boundaries actually are, how people-pleasing can become a form of control, why resentment often reveals places where we have abandoned ourselves, and how faith, personal revelation, and emotional honesty can help us stop living from fear and start living in truth. We also explore family systems, attachment, sacrifice, self-betrayal, generational healing, and why loving God and others does not require losing yourself. Part 2 will continue this conversation with one of the hardest questions of all: what do you do when you are trying to get healthy, but the other person does not want accountability, honesty, or change? If this episode helps you, please share it with someone who may need language for what they are experiencing. Learn more about our book and resources at leavethencleave.com.

    1h 3m
  6. 52. Boundaries Didn’t Ruin Our Life. They Gave It Back.

    Apr 28

    52. Boundaries Didn’t Ruin Our Life. They Gave It Back.

    If you are afraid that setting boundaries, going no contact, or disappointing your family will ruin your life, this episode is for you. Most conversations about boundaries focus on what they cost. The grief. The backlash. The loneliness. The fear of being misunderstood. The pain of relationships changing. But in this episode, Jon and Ashley talk about what boundaries can give back. After years of people pleasing, self-doubt, emotional exhaustion, and constantly managing other people’s perceptions, boundaries created space for something new: clarity, creativity, confidence, joy, self-discovery, and a deeper sense of God’s direction. Ashley shares how pickleball, gardening, and creating beauty in their home became part of her healing. Jon shares how boundaries gave him the courage to run for city council, speak vulnerably online, and help build a platform that has now reached millions of people. This conversation is for anyone who is afraid that setting boundaries will ruin their life. Sometimes boundaries do bring grief. But they can also become the doorway into the life God has been trying to help you build. If you are navigating family estrangement, no contact, people pleasing, religious pressure, toxic family dynamics, or the emotional aftermath of setting boundaries, this episode will help you see that healing is not only about what you leave behind. It is also about what you finally become free to walk toward. Join us this Wednesday for our live event, Healing After No Contact. This event is for those who have already made a painful boundary decision and are now living with the grief, second-guessing, backlash, loneliness, and emotional aftermath. Register here.

    48 min
  7. 51: When Faith Gets Weaponized | Peacemaking, Boundaries, and Spiritual Control

    Apr 21

    51: When Faith Gets Weaponized | Peacemaking, Boundaries, and Spiritual Control

    What do you do when a sermon, a Bible verse, a conference talk, or a spiritual principle gets used against you? In this episode, we talk about a painful dynamic many people experience in unhealthy family systems: when teachings about peacemaking, forgiveness, humility, honor, or reconciliation are twisted into pressure, shame, control, or spiritual superiority. This conversation was prompted in part by messages we received after President Oaks’ recent talk on peacemaking. We want to be clear: we honor and sustain President Oaks, and we saw nothing wrong with his message. What we are addressing is the way true spiritual principles can be misused by others in ways that feel manipulative, coercive, or spiritually destabilizing. In this episode, we unpack the difference between peacemaking and appeasement, why truth is not the same thing as being harsh, how spiritual language gets weaponized in estrangement and no-contact dynamics, how to stay grounded in God when others use faith to destabilize you, and what scripture teaches about truth, control, and righteous boundaries. Whether the pressure came through a pastor, a parent, a church leader, or someone quoting scripture at you, the principle is the same: something true can still be used in a spiritually harmful way. If you have ever felt guilty, confused, or shaken because your boundaries were framed as unloving or unchristian, this episode is for you. We also share details about our upcoming live online CLEAVE Events: April 22: Boundaries Without Guilt April 29: Healing After No Contact If you are interested in attending either of these events, you can find more details on our website: www.leavethencleave.com/cleave-events

    46 min
  8. 50: Q & A Part 2 | How to Stop Letting Family Live Rent Free in Your Mind | Discussing Marriage, Siblings, and No Contact

    Apr 12

    50: Q & A Part 2 | How to Stop Letting Family Live Rent Free in Your Mind | Discussing Marriage, Siblings, and No Contact

    What do you do when your spouse has not fully left and cleaved? Why do siblings experience the same family so differently? And how do you stop letting unhealthy family dynamics live rent free in your mind long after distance has been put in place? In Part 2 of this Q&A episode, Jon and Ashley respond to some of the most common and painful questions they hear from this community around marriage, family systems, forgiveness, triangulation, and emotional healing. They talk about what happens when one spouse begins to recognize unhealthy family patterns before the other does, why family roles form so differently among siblings, and how grief, truth, and time all shape the healing process after no contact. In this episode, they explore: what it means to “leave and cleave” when your spouse is not fully there yetwhy forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thinghow triangulation and unhealthy sibling roles develop in familieswhy children in the same home can carry very different family experienceshow grief can keep people emotionally attached even after no contactwhat it looks like to finally let go and move forward with GodJon and Ashley also talk about the slow nature of healing, the small and simple truths that can begin changing a marriage, and the painful but freeing process of accepting that you cannot do other people’s healing for them. If you are navigating: family estrangementemotionally immature parentsmarriage tension around in-lawssibling scapegoating or triangulationChristian questions about forgiveness and reconciliationthe grief of no contactthis conversation will give you language, validation, and a more grounded path forward. If this episode resonates with you, check out our book Leave Then Cleave, a faith-rooted guide to boundaries, marriage, family systems, and healing. you can also download the first chapter for free at www.leavethencleave.com/free-chapter

    44 min
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4.8
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24 Ratings

About

🌿 Cleave: The Podcast We’re Jon & Ashley Lefrandt. Cleave is a faith-centered podcast about marriage, boundaries, family systems, healing, and holding fast to truth. As followers of Christ, we talk honestly about leaving unhealthy patterns and cleaving to God, your spouse, your covenants, and what is true — especially when family pressure, manipulation, spiritual confusion, or relational pain make that difficult. We explore Christlike boundaries, forgiveness, reconciliation, emotional safety, and generational healing. Books, resources, and support: leavethencleave.com

Information

  • Creator
    Jon and Ashley Lefrandt
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    59
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Jon and Ashley Lefrandt
  • Show Website
    Cleave: The Podcast

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