It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

The Overlap
  • 5.0 (144)
  • Soccer
  • Updated Daily

Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was. Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world. The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved. the tales from behind the scenes and the impact they left. Join us at Football University! If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  1. 2d ago

    Remembering Kevin Keegan: Part Two

    Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool. 00:00 Keegan Cashes In 01:06 Hamburg Move Explained 01:39 The Bubble Perm Era 03:40 Frosty Dressing Room 06:36 Lübeck Punch Up 09:46 Backlash and Doubts 10:58 Turning Point Return 12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival 14:03 Pop Star in Germany 17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate 21:12 European Cup Heartbreak 23:14 Shock Southampton Switch 25:07 Saints Reality Check 27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally 28:27 England Captain Burden 30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak 31:47 Belgrade Police Beating 34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos 35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout 36:51 IRA Threats Belfast 40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury 43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move 46:52 Robson Drops Keegan 49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle 55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement 55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Remembering Kevin Keegan: Part Two

  2. Aug 25

    Remembering Kevin Keegan: Part One

    *The full three-part series is available on Patreon now* Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory. 00:00 Tribute to Keegan 01:09 Charisma and Kindness 06:19 Roots in Doncaster 09:14 Mining Heritage 15:22 School and Sweetheart 22:21 Rejected Then Spotted 24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough 28:18 Move to Liverpool 30:03 Negotiating His Worth 33:34 Late Arrival Debut 35:22 Toshack Partnership 35:47 Sweat Box Fitness 37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax 40:12 Shankly Mind Games 41:46 Celebrity Endorsements 47:26 Superstars Bike Crash 49:48 Trophies And Turning Point 54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout 57:34 European Peak Exit Plan Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Remembering Kevin Keegan: Part One

  3. Aug 18

    Total Football: Glory, Fracture and the 1974 World Cup | Part Four

    The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign. Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel. Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak. But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat. The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Total Football: Glory, Fracture and the 1974 World Cup | Part Four

  4. Aug 11

    Total Football: Cruyff, Ajax and the Golden Years | Part Three

    In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age. They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system. The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together. Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona. This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football. You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Total Football: Cruyff, Ajax and the Golden Years | Part Three

  5. Aug 6

    Franco Baresi Tribute: Jamie Carragher on Milan's Maestro

    *You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon* Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi . Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system. They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Franco Baresi Tribute: Jamie Carragher on Milan's Maestro

  6. Aug 4

    Total Football: Ideas, Architecture and the Feyenoord Breakthrough | Part Two

    In part two of our Total Football series, Jonathan and Rob explore the ideas behind football’s great tactical revolution. From the structuralist architecture and social change of 1960s Amsterdam to Johan Cruyff’s place within a collective system, they trace how a new way of thinking shaped the Dutch game. But it's not all Ajax. Focus shifts to Rotterdam and Feyenoord: Ernst Happel’s 4-3-3, their landmark 1970 European Cup win, and the overlooked tactical breakthrough that helped pave the way for Ajax and Cruyff. Want to listen to the whole Total Football series now? Sign up to our Patreon for full access. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Total Football: Ideas, Architecture and the Feyenoord Breakthrough | Part Two

  7. Jul 28

    Total Football: Where Did The Revolution Really Begin? | Part One

    In the first episode of a new four-part series, Jonathan and Rob examine the origins of Total Football - and why it is far more than simply slick passing or players swapping positions. They explore the overlooked influence of English coach Vic Buckingham at Ajax, the role of Rinus Michels in shaping the philosophy, and the tactical shift from individual battles to coordinated systems. There's why Dutch football’s late professionalisation made it a laboratory for new ideas; how advances in fitness made pressing possible; and why similar thinking was developing simultaneously in Soviet football under Valeriy Lobanovskyi. This is the story of the conditions that made Total Football possible - before Johan Cruyff became its greatest expression. Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for part two. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode right now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Total Football: Where Did The Revolution Really Begin? | Part One

  8. Jul 21

    Jordi Cruyff on Father Johan, Total Football and his Lasting Legacy

    Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Jordi Cruyff for the first episode in a new series on Total Football: its origins, its legacy, and one of its key architects, Johan Cruyff. Who better than Jordi to reflect on his father's footballing influences and legacy? Beginning with his upbringing in Amsterdam, the hardship that shaped his ambition, and the profound influence of Rinus Michels on his development, Jordi also shares personal insight into Johan’s personality: stubborn, curious, challenging and, of course, never afraid to go against the grain. The conversation explores Cruyff’s football philosophy in detail - his attacking mindset, positional ideas, emphasis on angles and intelligence, and refusal to compromise on style. Jordi also retells the story of being named Jordi in Franco-era Spain, a moment that captured his father’s defiant spirit and deep connection with Catalonia. Rob, Jonathan and Jordi look at Johan’s transformational impact on Barcelona, the 1992 European Cup, his influence on Pep Guardiola, and how Cruyff’s ideas continue to shape elite football - from La Masia to the modern Premier League. Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for a dive into the origins of Total Football itself; the first in a new four-part series. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    Jordi Cruyff on Father Johan, Total Football and his Lasting Legacy
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Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was. Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world. The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved. the tales from behind the scenes and the impact they left. Join us at Football University! If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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