Organising For A Change - the podcast for union builders

Simon Sapper, Martin Smith
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  • Non-Profit
  • Updated Weekly

We’re fed-up, frustrated and impatient. And you should be too. Unleashed from obligations to employers. Unfiltered by gobbledegook. Uncompromised in what we say. We ask the vital questions that go to the heart of the union movement. We have 80 years of combined union building experience and the gloves are off: No holds barred, nothing left unsaid. Thanks to our supporters: Thompsons, The General Federation of Trade Unions, Pellacraft, and Battersea and Wandsworth Trade Union Council. Contact us at organising@makes-you-think.com. Organising For A Change? Why on earth not!

  1. Jun 15

    25 Surge pricing and dynamic wages - a warning

    In this episode, Simon and Martin chat with James Farrer –an expert in the impact of dynamic (or surge) pricing on wages.  In a must-hear conversation, reference is made to a number of live or recent-past court cases and recent research papers.  Listeners may want to check out some or all of the following: The TUC report on dynamic pay, based on testimonyfrom a number of Uber drivers, is here.  The so-called Article 22 legal case is set in context by this press release and is co-ordinated by the Worker Info Exchange – read more here. Information on the 2016 Employment Tribunal, and thesubsequent Supreme Court ruling,  against Uber is here. The Harvard Business School paper on  “Dynamic Pricing Algorithms, Consumer Harm, and Regulatory Response” is here,  and the Columbia Law Review, “On Algorithmic Wage Discrimination” by Veena Dubal is here. The Worker Info Exchange paper on “Dying for Data, How the gig economy public data deficit conceals £1.9 billion in wage theft, runaway carbon emissions, and a health & safety catastrophe?”  is here. The RUSI paper on “How Ride-Share Apps Collect and Store Data: A National Security Risk?” is here and Chris Schmidt’s paper “From the CIA to Uber via the Oxford MBA” is here. AI is advancing exponentially, and the principles ofdynamic/surge pricing will surely leach into wage setting.  The time to understand organise, and write a different future for the labour movement is now.

    39 min

  2. May 3

    24 Union cultures and union building feat. Becky Wright

    In this episode Simon and Martin chat with Unions 21 Executive Director Becky Wright about some ground breaking work on union culture, and how this ties in with union building.  Spoiler alert – sometimes it helps, at others in obstructs. But the inter-relationship between culture, strategy, and resources is still little-understood, little-studied and little-exposed.  Hear what is being done to change all this by listening today!  You may also be interested in the Unions 21 reporton union culture, and Martin’s blog on the same theme.

    33 min

  3. Apr 20

    23 Building social change feat. Jane Holgate, John Page

    In this episode, Simon and Martin chat with the authors ofChangemakers – Radical Strategies for Social Movement Organising, Jane Holgate and John Page, who both have long and distinguished involvement in the theory and practice of organising. At the heart of the debate is how to operate in acomplex and conflicting environment of union cultures, legislative frameworks and employer obfuscation – and (spoiler alert!) there is no checklist for success.  Quoting Marshall Ganz John sums it up thus: “If you want to build power, you have to cede control.”  You can hear Jane talking about other areas of her work in thisUnions21 podcast, and John and Jane discuss the more research-orientated content of their book in thisTransforming Society episode. Jane Holgate is Professor of Work and EmploymentRelations at the University of Leeds and a Trustee of the Ella Baker School of Organising. John Page serves on the committee of the Ella Baker School of Organising. Changemakers by Jane Holgate and John Page is available on Policy Press for £14.99 here.

    41 min

  4. 12/19/2025

    22 How to be "aggresively hopeful" feat. Dave Pike

    In this episode we chat with Dave Pike, the TUC’s RegionalSecretary for the North East, Yorkshire and Humberside.  Dave walks us through an ambitious plan to boost the profile and effectiveness of union engagement in a politically diverse landscape, and how his own experiences organising workers in hospitality, catering and education make him “aggressively hopeful” for the future.  We wish all our listeners a peaceful festive season and a healthy, happy new year.

    32 min

  5. 11/28/2025

    21 No Sweat and union building feat. Jay Kerr

    Our special guest for this episode is No Sweat convenor JayKerr.  He reminds us that when NS set upshop nearly 30 years ago, “sweatshop” was a term little understood. Changing perceptions and understanding is just one of the many achievements of Jay and his colleagues.  Our discussion dives deep into the politics and practicalities fo consumer boycotts,  how to give meaning and life to international trade union solidarity, and what this can contribute to union building at home.  The key takeaway -   we can all make a difference as individualsand as part of the union movement.  Visit nosweat.org.uk for more on the campaign. For signposting and background see Simon’s post on the Loudshirts blog. Run time 30m24s. First published 28 November 2025.

    30 min

  6. 10/31/2025

    Episode 20: Countering divisive workplace narratives

    Welcome to the fourth series of O4AC.  We start with the most pressing of issues:  How to counter the type of divisive, destructive narratives in the workplace, promoted by Reform amongst others.  We discuss the practical steps that can and must be taken with Hope Not Hate Trade Union Liaison Officer Matt Collins, and get to grips with the invaluable “Five Tribes” analysis of Reform supporters. Unmissable. Runtime 34m46s

    35 min

  7. 04/11/2025

    Episode 19: Union building for pharmacists: The PDAU story

    This episode features a story of union building against the odds – disparate workers, often isolated from each other,a “sweetheart” union and employer hostility.  For Paul Day and his colleagues in the Pharmacists Defence Association Union(PDAU), the challenge in organising the pharmacists in Boots plc was significant.  We discuss with Paul the process of removing the in-houseunion sand then engaging with potential members, the experience of having to use the statutory recognition/derecognition measures and what happened next. In this instance, what happened next was further union building success for the PDAU in the former Lloyds chemists’ group and more recently Superdrug. Paul is an engaging and captivating guest – someone whoreally has “worn the t-shirT and eaten the pie” as they say. We’re grateful to have the support of Thompsons, the leading trade union and social justice law firm, The GeneralFederation of Trade Unions - delivering trade union education,building solidarity and the home of StrikeMap, Pellacraft, award winning and trusted supplier of promotional goods, and Battersea and Wandsworth Trade Union Council. Thank you all. Episode run time 32m22s. Organising For A Change ispresented by Martin Smith and Simon Sapper. Music is by Scott Holmes. It is a Makes-You-Think production. Contact the show at organising@makes-you-think.com.  This episode was first published on 11 April.  Organising For A Change willreturn in the autumn.

    32 min

  8. 03/28/2025

    Episode 18 Demystifying AI feat. Adam Cantwell- Corn

    In this episode, we eyeball AI.  It’s time to demystify what Artificial intelligence actually is and get to grips with the keyunion-building issues associated with this so-called “5th Industrial Revolution”   Our discussion is made credible with the help of our guestand AI expert, Adam Cantwell-Corn. And Adam’s starting point is that “we need to not exceptionalise AI….it’s a pay and conditions issue.”   So far so clear, but how do we make unions and unionbuilding the “champions of a positive technological future?”   What does a just tech transition look like – because “if deskilling is the result, where will our bargainingpower be?” And what would be good regulation?   The answers to these visceral questions emerge during afascinating ramble across the AI landscape – taking nebulous concepts and seeing how they apply to issues that are here now:  surge pricing, body-worn camera and advanced, accelerated data processing.   From cab drivers to teachers to legal aid solicitors, welook at how unions are already engaging with AI at the levels of design and decision-making not just deployment – and why this needs to happen far more than it currently does.   So much of the talk about AI is deliberately obscure – thatends here.  All you need to do is lend us your ears for 30 minutes!   As ever, the discussion is calm, measured and derived from a combined 80 years plus of union activism.  Where we disagree, we do so amicably.  But there’s no getting away from the importance or relevance of this debate.   We’re grateful to have the support of Thompsons, the leading trade union and social justice law firm, The General Federation of Trade Unions - delivering trade union education,building solidarity and the home of StrikeMap, Pellacraft, award winning and trusted supplier of promotional goods, and Battersea and Wandsworth Trade Union Council. Thank you all.   Episode run time 33m10s. Organising For A Change ispresented by Martin Smith and Simon Sapper. Music is by Scott Holmes. It is a Makes-You-Think production. Contact the show at organising@makes-you-think.com.  This episode was first published on 28 March 2025.  Next episode drops 11 April.

    33 min
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About

We’re fed-up, frustrated and impatient. And you should be too. Unleashed from obligations to employers. Unfiltered by gobbledegook. Uncompromised in what we say. We ask the vital questions that go to the heart of the union movement. We have 80 years of combined union building experience and the gloves are off: No holds barred, nothing left unsaid. Thanks to our supporters: Thompsons, The General Federation of Trade Unions, Pellacraft, and Battersea and Wandsworth Trade Union Council. Contact us at organising@makes-you-think.com. Organising For A Change? Why on earth not!

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