The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson

Matthew Wilkinson
  • 5.0 (8)
  • MUSIC COMMENTARY

We explore topics such as classical music, Orthodox chant, Bach, Messiaen, architecture, symbolism, the philosophy of mind, aesthetics, and the general pursuit of Beauty.

  1. 2D AGO

    This Meal Changed His Life

    What happens when a meal becomes something sacred?In this conversation, Matthew Wilkinson sits down with John Heers of First Things Foundation to explore the ancient Georgian tradition of the Supra: a feast built around wine, poetry, hospitality, storytelling, beauty, memory, and human communion. What begins as a discussion about Georgian culture slowly becomes something much deeper: a meditation on why modern people feel spiritually exhausted, emotionally isolated, and disconnected from one another.John Heers shares the story of how traveling to the country of Georgia transformed his life forever. Living among Georgians in the aftermath of civil war, he encountered a radically different vision of human life centered around hospitality, vulnerability, reverence, sacrifice, and shared meals. In the Georgian Supra tradition, the “Tamada” or toastmaster guides the table through hours of poetry, tears, remembrance, philosophy, celebration, and reflection. The words are for the wine, and the wine is for the words.Matthew and John discuss beauty, nihilism, materialism, masculinity, Christianity, and the modern crisis of meaning. They explore why the modern West struggles with loneliness and spiritual hunger despite unprecedented wealth and technology. Drawing from Orthodox Christianity, C.S. Lewis, symbolism, philosophy, liturgy, and lived experience, they ask whether modern life has forgotten something essential about being human.The conversation also explores martyrdom, suffering, and witness through the story of the 21 Coptic martyrs killed by ISIS in Libya. Rather than treating faith as ideology or argument alone, Matthew and John discuss how beauty, courage, sacrifice, and love draw people toward truth in ways that abstract apologetics often cannot. The discussion touches on tears, weddings, funerals, music, repentance, and why modern culture often fears vulnerability and sincerity.John Heers also explains the mission of First Things Foundation and its unusual approach to international aid and mission work. Instead of imposing Western systems onto foreign cultures, First Things Foundation emphasizes becoming good guests: learning local languages, honoring local traditions, living simply, and empowering local communities from within. Stories from Georgia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, and Orthodox Christian history all become part of a larger conversation about hospitality, communion, and the search for meaning.This interview will resonate with viewers interested in Orthodox Christianity, Anglicanism, Jonathan Pageau, Symbolic World, David Bentley Hart, Christian philosophy, beauty and meaning, the meaning crisis, ancient Christianity, hospitality culture, traditional societies, liturgy, symbolism, Georgian culture, masculinity, modern loneliness, anti-materialism, and the spiritual problems of modern life.If you enjoyed this conversation, please like, subscribe, and share the video. Let us know in the comments: Has the modern world forgotten how to feast, how to commune, and how to truly live together?Feast image in thumbnail: Creator: Makho KipshidzeCopyright: Makho Kipshidze PhotographyPhoto by Irma Sharikadze. Owner by Levan Qoqiashvili 02:28 – “The Words Are for the Wine”03:41 – The 21 Coptic Martyrs 05:12 – Beauty vs Nihilism06:45 – Discovering Georgia 09:02 – What Is a Supra?15:02 – Hyperbole and Poetry18:20 – Cultural Appropriation, Love, and Beauty25:15 – Masculinity, Vulnerability, and Tears29:08 – The Structure33:21 – The Tamada38:02 – Americans Don’t Know How41:17 – John Heers’ Conversion to Orthodoxy45:06 – His Brother50:12 – First Things Foundation58:41 – Orthodox Mission Work vs Modern Aid01:03:14 – The Story of the 21 Martyrs of Libya01:07:03 – Why Beauty Converts People More Than Arguments01:10:55 – Materialism, Meaning, and the Crisis of Modernity01:15:02 – “The Only Thing You Can Do Alone Is Go to Hell”01:18:40 – We Were Never Meant to Live Like This

    1h 9m

  2. APR 20

    They Sing for 15 Hours Straight (And That's a Short Service) | Deacon Mihret Melaku

    Deacon Mihret Melaku is an Ethiopian Orthodox deacon, host of the Burning Bush Podcast, and author of Defending the Ancient Faith. In this conversation we explore the full breadth of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity — its theology, its extraordinary sacred music system, its deep roots in Second Temple Judaism, and its living traditions of liturgical poetry.Burning Bush podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@UCKL74lcBHGYh2Xwsz8X68Nw Dcn. Mihret's book: https://www.defendingancientfaith.com/We begin with theology: how Ethiopian Orthodoxy understands salvation as ontological transformation rather than forensic transaction, the church's relationship to the divine energies tradition, and what makes the Axumite school of exegesis its own distinct synthesis of Alexandrian allegory and Antiochian typology. Deacon Mihret explains the Andimta commentary tradition — Ethiopia's uniquely narrative approach to scripture, which draws on hagiographic oral traditions to build midrashic-style stories around biblical events, including the extraordinary story of the man with the withered hand.A major thread of the conversation is Ethiopian Orthodoxy's relationship to Judaism. Deacon Mihret makes the case that the Ethiopian church is the most faithful continuity of Second Temple Judaism in Christendom — preserving the books of Enoch and Jubilees, keeping Saturday as the first Sabbath, maintaining circumcision and kosher practice, and tracing its Levitical vestments to the priesthood of ancient Israel. We work through four competing theories of how Judaism entered Ethiopia, centered on the Kebra Nagast and the Queen of Sheba narrative.The second half focuses on the sacred music system — one of the most complex liturgical music traditions in the world. We cover the structure of Aqwaqwam, the three-hour Divine Liturgy and the pre-liturgical vigils that can last 12–15 hours, the three modes (Ge'ez, Izl, and Araray) and their tonal relationship to the pentatonic scale, and the Ge'ez poetry tradition with its "wax and gold" (sem ena worq) double-meaning structure and three schools of poetic composition (Washara, Wadla, and Gonj). Deacon Mihret explains what a full certification path looks like — roughly 14 years across Aqwaqwam, Digwa, and Zimmari — and why even a scholar in his 60s considers himself still a student.We close on the question of Eucharistic frequency — Deacon Mihret explains why the widespread practice of Ethiopian Orthodox laypeople not receiving communion is a historical aberration contradicted by Apostolic Canon 9, which is actually chanted at the opening of every Divine Liturgy as a rebuke to non-communicants, and what the canons actually require for worthy reception.

    1h 21m

  3. APR 10

    Bishop Maximus & Evgeny Skurat | Resurrecting the Ancient Byzantine Liturgy

    Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia and musicologist Evgeny Skurat to discuss one of the most extraordinary sacred music projects in recent memory: a full reconstruction and live recording of the medieval Byzantine Divine Liturgy, filmed at the Hermitage of St. Ignatius in Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala. Drawing on years of manuscript research and decipherment of Middle Byzantine notation, Evgeny has worked to bring to life a musical tradition that has not been heard in its full liturgical context for over 700 years.Evgeny explains the difference between the cathedral and the monastic rite, why the cathedral rite is so much harder to reconstruct, and offers a provocative musicological critique of the caliphonic period associated with John Koukouzelis. Bishop Maximus reflects on the theological vision behind the project — not archaeology, not invention, but the living tradition of the Orthodox Church recovered with rigor and reverence. He also makes a compelling case for how the church should approach congregational participation: not by inventing new practices, but by looking at what the manuscripts themselves show was actually done.Evgeny Skurat is a musicologist, chanter, and director of the Chronos Ensemble, specializing in Znamenny chant, Strochnoy chant, and medieval Byzantine music. His youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@EvgenySkuratChronosChronos Ensemble's Bandcamp: https://chronosart.bandcamp.com/Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia is a bishop in the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece, a teacher at St. Photios Orthodox Theological Seminary in Etna, California, and is known for his dialogues with philosopher John Vervaeke on the Philosophical Silk Road project.Saint Photios Seminary's Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCgEVlUNCkLecfOwOTDYE6jg The Pursuit of Beauty is a long-form interview podcast exploring sacred music, sacred architecture, iconography, and the theology of beauty across Christian traditions. Hosted by Matthew Wilkinson, Doctor of Music and Director of Music and Organist at St. Michael's Church, Charleston, SC — one of the oldest Anglican churches in America, founded 1751.🎵 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major platforms📩 Subscribe to the Pursuit of Beauty Substack: https://substack.com/@UCPo3842Pl_Z3Xqo9GYACUzw 🔔 Subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss new episodesmy website: https://matthewwilkinson.net/my Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/MatthewWilkinsonMusicVideos referenced during the interview: https://youtu.be/D8rZNz47zoc?si=_dF7roIfSHj40wHShttps://youtu.be/LQWr7TrCaHw?si=EXvgBg-nYBS1-K0Uhttps://youtu.be/xtsAsMiFLvI?si=WLsSHNx9sbsG2nNp https://youtu.be/Qxue4_dDnq4?si=4X4pOUEP6DLX0qgYhttps://youtu.be/PDItXFs3RMY?si=as0ndQfSQGatRbUehttps://youtu.be/6Myosbtq4ek?si=7xy3NHDZcfc69H3M0:00 The Problem with a 6th-Century Liturgy2:21 Introductions4:28 how a Monastery Ended Up in Guatemala7:22 Falling in Love with Medieval Chant — and Finding Evgeny10:50 Evgeny's Background: From Kronos Ensemble to Middle Byzantine Notation15:41 Has Any of This Music Been Recorded Before?18:43 Cathedral Rite vs. Monastic Rite: What's the Difference?22:42 Ornamentation: Why Chanting Without It Would Be Historically Wrong30:25 The Three Goals Behind the Project33:12 Evgeny's Transcription System: Medieval and Western Notation Side by Side43:24 What Is the Caliphonic Period — and Why Is Evgeny Skeptical of Koukouzelis?52:27 Why They Were Forced Into the 13th Century59:36 Glossolalia in Byzantine Chant (Not What You Think)1:01:29 Reading the Sources vs. Reconstructing: An Important Distinction1:04:06 Rubrical Differences: 13th Century vs. Modern Liturgy1:17:15 Congregational, Choral, and Soloist Participation Through History1:22:03 Tradition vs. Invention: Bishop Maximus on Liturgical Reform1:26:53 Where to Find the Recording and Sheet Music

    1h 39m

  4. APR 1

    From Heavy Metal to Armenian Orthodox Chant | Tigran Hamasyan

    Armenian jazz piano legend  @TigranHamasyan  joins Matthew Wilkinson on Pursuit of Beauty for a rare, in-depth conversation at the intersection of jazz, Armenian sacred music, medieval polyphony, and the theology of musical beauty. This is not a typical jazz interview, it goes deep into the musical, spiritual, and cultural roots that have shaped one of the most original voices in contemporary music.Tigran shares how influences like Jan Garbarek and Keith Jarrett first led him back to his own Armenian musical heritage, and how that discovery forced him to abandon bebop entirely and rebuild his musical language from the ground up. He discusses the tetrachord-based modal system of Armenian folk and Church music, the eight-mode octoechos of Armenian sacred tradition, microtonal ornamentation, the polyphonic vocal music of Komitas, and the extraordinary 10th-century poet-composer Grigor Narekatsi, whose Book of Lamentations Tigran describes as life-changing. He also discusses Armenian chant scholar and performer Aram Kerovpyan, based in Paris, with whom Tigran studied — and whose work he considers the most authentic living transmission of the Armenian modal tradition.The conversation ranges widely: why Machaut and Pérotin sound more contemporary to Tigran than Mozart; the polyphonic voice-leading approach of medieval music and how it maps onto jazz composition; John Coltrane as a model for taking modal music into twelve-tone territory while keeping it beautiful; Shostakovich's 24 Preludes and Fugues as some of the greatest piano music ever written; Messiaen's modes of limited transposition; the difference between harmony derived from voice leading versus voice leading derived from harmony; McCoy Tyner, Brad Mehldau, and Chick Corea as foundational influences; and the rhythmic world of Indian classical music, Meshuggah, and odd-meter Armenian folk music as the foundation of Tigran's approach to groove.Tigran also reflects on his compositional process — how most ideas go to the trash because they're too complicated, how he sequences drums and bass to feel out a groove before finishing a composition, and where he sees his music heading: toward more outlandish harmonic territory, anchored by melody and folk roots.A genuinely rare conversation for anyone interested in jazz piano, Armenian music, sacred music, early music, or the creative process of one of the most distinctive musicians working today.Tigran Hamasyan is an Armenian jazz pianist, composer, and vocalist born in Gyumri, Armenia. Winner of the Thelonious Monk International Jazz Piano Competition in 2006, his albums include Mockroot, An Ancient Observer, The Call Within, and StandArt. His music integrates Armenian modal and folk traditions with jazz improvisation, complex odd-meter grooves, and a deeply polyphonic compositional approach. He is widely regarded as one of the most original voices in contemporary jazz.https://www.tigranhamasyan.com/The Pursuit of Beauty is a long-form interview podcast exploring sacred music, sacred architecture, iconography, and the theology of beauty across Christian traditions. Hosted by Matthew Wilkinson, Doctor of Music and Director of Music and Organist at St. Michael's Church, Charleston, SC — one of the oldest Anglican churches in America, founded 1751.🎵 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major platforms📩 Subscribe to the Pursuit of Beauty Substack: https://substack.com/@UCPo3842Pl_Z3Xqo9GYACUzw 🔔 Subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss new episodesmy website: https://matthewwilkinson.net/my Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/MatthewWilkinsonMusic

    1h 1m

  5. MAR 24

    From Hagia Sophia to the Coronation: Alexander Lingas on Byzantine Music and the Living Tradition

    Dr. Alexander Lingas — musicologist, conductor, and Founding Director of Capella Romana — joins Matthew Wilkinson for one of the most wide-ranging conversations in the history of the Pursuit of Beauty podcast. From reconstructing the lost sounds of Hagia Sophia to conducting Byzantine chant at King Charles III's coronation, Lingas has spent 35 years at the intersection of sacred music scholarship and performance. This is the definitive interview on the Byzantine chant tradition, its history, its revival, and its future.Lingas traces the full arc of his career: growing up in a Greek Orthodox parish in Portland, Oregon; doctoral studies in Byzantine chant at the University of British Columbia under Dimitri Konomos; a Fulbright year in Athens studying under the legendary Lykouros Angelopoulos; postdoctoral work in Oxford under Metropolitan Kallistos Ware; and nearly two decades teaching at City University of London. Along the way he founded Capella Romana — now in its 35th year — which has become the world's leading ensemble for Byzantine and medieval Orthodox sacred music, as well as the music of the Christian East more broadly.The conversation goes deep into the musicology. Lingas explains the difference between the "new method" notation introduced in the early 19th century and the medieval Byzantine notation it replaced, and what it means to take a "what you see is what you get" approach to manuscripts that haven't been performed in 500 years. He unpacks how Capella Romana's landmark recordings — Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia, the St. Catherine's Sinai Vespers, Cyprus and Venice in the East — were constructed from manuscript sources, and why this music rarely finds its way back into parish worship. He also gives an extraordinary account of the calophonic chant style of St. John Koukouzelis and the Byzantine ars nova of the 13th and 14th centuries — a sacred music tradition so sophisticated that it eventually transcended text altogether into abstract vocables, which Lingas connects directly to the Hesychast theology of divine energies and angelic liturgy.Other topics include: the full history of Lykouros Angelopoulos and the Greek Byzantine Choir and their foundational role in the modern chant revival; the Romanian, Serbian, and Transylvanian chant traditions and how they diverged from the Byzantine mainstream; the contested question of the organ in Orthodox worship and the difference between a cappella practice and a cappella doctrine; the music of Tikey Zes and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America; the Appalachian music project and its theological and musicological problems; Arvo Pärt and the Odes of Repentance recording; collaborative work with composers Robert Kyr and Einojuhani Rautavaara; and the grants, publications, and institutional infrastructure that sustain this work.Near the end of the conversation, Lingas reflects on his recent retirement from Capella Romana after 35 years, his involvement with the Institute of Sacred Arts at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, and his experience at the coronation of King Charles III — where he served first as a liturgical consultant advising on how to represent the Orthodox traditions of Prince Philip, and then as the director of the Byzantine choir that performed at Westminster Abbey.This episode is essential listening for anyone serious about Orthodox sacred music, Byzantine chant, the theology of beauty, liturgical theology, or the history of Christian worship.

    1h 41m

  6. MAR 13

    Rock & Roll Is a Trauma Response — Neil DeGraide of Dirt Poor Robins

    Neil's links:  @dirtpoorrobins  https://www.dirtpoorrobins.com/In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, Matthew Wilkinson speaks with musician and rock star Neil Basil DeGraide of Dirt Poor Robins about faith, music, culture, and the search for truth in the modern world.Neil shares the story of his journey from Catholicism through Protestant and charismatic churches and eventually into Eastern Orthodoxy. He reflects on growing up in New England during the Catholic scandals, searching for authentic Christianity, and discovering the importance of tradition and historical continuity in the Church.The conversation also explores the relationship between miracles, discernment, and the modern desire for spiritual experience. Matthew and Neil discuss the differences between charismatic spirituality and the Orthodox understanding of spiritual life.Later in the conversation, the discussion turns toward music, composition, and the philosophy of art. Neil explains how his musical upbringing shaped his career as a composer and producer. He describes how modern recording technology allows a single musician to simulate orchestral sound through layered samples and live performance techniques.Matthew and Neil also reflect on film music, modern composition, and the changing role of melody in contemporary culture. They discuss composers such as John Williams and Hans Zimmer, and consider how modern media shapes the way audiences hear and understand music.Finally, the conversation moves into a deeper discussion about rock music, cultural trauma, modern art, and the purpose of artistic expression in a technological age. What does modern music reveal about our civilization? Can art respond to cultural crisis? And how should Christians think about music that emerges from broken cultural conditions?This wide-ranging discussion explores faith, aesthetics, music theory, and cultural philosophy in a thoughtful and engaging way.

    2h 8m

  7. MAR 7

    What Is Sarum Chant? The Medieval English Tradition That Shaped Western Worship

    Dr. William Renwick joins the podcast to discuss Sarum chant, the medieval English plainchant tradition centered on Salisbury Cathedral that once dominated worship across most of England, Scotland, parts of Ireland, and even Northern France. William is a retired music theory professor from McMaster University in Ontario, Canada, and has devoted the latter part of his career to transcribing, editing, and publishing the entire Sarum chant repertoire at his free website, sarum-chant.ca. In this conversation, William explains the important distinction between the Western rite, the concept of "use," and the word "chant" itself. He walks through how Salisbury's scribes produced such detailed and thorough liturgical books in the 12th and 13th centuries that their system became the standard for roughly 80 percent of English churches. He also discusses the York and Hereford uses, how they compare to Sarum, and the practical reality that very few musical manuscripts survive from those traditions. One of the highlights of this episode is William's live vocal demonstrations of the differences between Sarum chant and standard Gregorian chant. He sings the Sarum and Roman versions of the Orbis Factor Kyrie and an Agnus Dei to illustrate how the melodies share a common origin but diverge in specific intervals and melodic turns. He also demonstrates the Sarum psalm tones, the York gospel tone, and a fascinating St. Stephen's Day prose featuring extended melismatic singing on a single vowel. William shares his perspective on performance practice, arguing that medieval liturgy was a full-time daily activity, not a polished concert performance. He draws an unexpected parallel between plainchant and jazz, noting that both traditions thrive on variation, personal interpretation, and a refusal to be pinned down to a single "correct" version. He also addresses the Abbey of Solesmes and the way their editorial choices may have smoothed over legitimate regional diversity across the Western chant tradition. The conversation covers the sheer volume of medieval liturgical material that has been lost or abandoned since the Reformation. William demonstrates this by showing the seven volumes needed just for Sarum Matins throughout the year, compared to roughly half that for the Roman Tridentine tradition. He explains how both Protestant and Catholic reformations drastically simplified worship, and how the Franciscan preference for simpler liturgy influenced the Roman books that became standard after the Council of Trent. William also explores the surprising connections between Sarum chant and Anglican chant, showing how Renaissance composers like Thomas Tallis based their harmonized psalm chants directly on Sarum psalm tones and their modal endings. He discusses fauxbourdon, the use of drones, the role of the organ in medieval worship, and the Neumae, which are modal melodic codas sung at the end of psalm groups during Matins, Lauds, and Vespers. For anyone interested in starting Sarum chant at their own church, William offers practical advice. He suggests beginning with a simple communion chant in English accompanied on the organ, or introducing an English Kyrie or Agnus Dei from the Sarum repertoire. All of these materials are available for free download at sarum-chant.ca. He has also published printed books in two English styles, one following the Book of Common Prayer and King James Bible tradition, and one following the Douay-Rheims Bible for those with a Roman Catholic sensibility. The episode wraps up with a discussion of organ music, including William's love of Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique, his experience studying with Gerre Hancock, and Matthew's own background in organ performance in Charleston, South Carolina, at St. Michael's Church, which has a historical connection to Johann Pachelbel's son Carl Theodore. Website: sarum-chant.ca

    1h 23m

  8. FEB 28

    The Beauty of Coptic Iconography (And Why It Matters) | George Makary

    Why do some coptic icons look cartoonish? Makary argues that the loss of apprenticeship, the absence of formal art education, and the pressure of rapid church construction have weakened artistic formation. Iconography is not a matter of copying lines and colors, but of understanding composition, light, volume, and the relationship between the image, the viewer, and the liturgical space. Sacred art must be treated as art in its fullness, not as a mechanical formula.The conversation then moves into the deep historical roots of Coptic art in ancient Egypt. Themes such as resurrection, eternity, the field of reeds, the symbolism of wheat and the bread of life, and even the monotheistic experiment of Akhenaten reveal profound continuities between ancient Egyptian religious vision and early Christian theology. We also explore the development of encaustic painting in early Christian icons, including connections to the Fayoum mummy portraits and the Sinai Pantocrator, and how the material discipline of hot wax painting shaped both technique and spiritual intentionality.Islamic rule in Egypt under the Fatimid, Abbasid, Umayyad, Mamluk, and Ottoman periods also played a decisive role in shaping Coptic iconography. Workshops often produced art for churches, mosques, and palaces alike, and cross-cultural exchange influenced woodwork, pattern, clothing, and visual language. Armenian and Greek iconographers contributed to later revivals, while periods of persecution and rebuilding left visible layers in church architecture and decoration. The result is a tradition marked by resilience, adaptation, and artistic richness rather than isolation.We also discuss how churches are visually “programmed.” The Ascension in the apse, Eucharistic typologies in the sanctuary, saints and biblical cycles in the nave, and commissioning scenes in the narthex reveal that iconography is theological architecture. Coptic art historically integrated liturgy, theology, and space in a unified visual language. Recovering this coherence may be essential for the renewal of sacred art today, especially in diaspora contexts where architecture, music, and iconography must harmonize within new cultural environments.Finally, the episode engages modern art directly. From Cubism and Impressionism to Van Gogh, Degas, and the modern sacred arts movement in Paris, we examine how medieval and Romanesque principles reemerge in modern movements. Ethiopian iconography, with its bold abstraction and graphic intensity, anticipated many developments associated with twentieth-century art. Rather than rejecting modern artistic exploration, Makary suggests that the iconographer should engage the totality of art and offer it to Christ, revealing objective theological truth through line, color, and light.

    1h 37m
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We explore topics such as classical music, Orthodox chant, Bach, Messiaen, architecture, symbolism, the philosophy of mind, aesthetics, and the general pursuit of Beauty.

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