Welcome to Neuroprovocateurs, the podcast all about neurodiversity and self acceptance. Want to hear all about how neurodiversity affects culture, relationships, sexuality and identity? You’ve come to the right place. On this episode, hosts Jessica Stoya and Pam Shaffer chatted with artist Steve Cleff his Aphrodite graphic novel and visual art project where he explores the goddess’ various forms and her cultural significance. He highlights his relationship with Aphrodite Mixus, representing the synthesis of different elements, and Aphrodite Pandemos, associated with political harmony. Steve's work is influenced by his synesthesia, where he associates colors with sounds and emotions. He lets us in on his creative process collaborating with his wife Trish and discusses his synesthetic playlists which help him visualize colors while painting. The conversation touches on the broader themes of empathy and understanding different experiences to create better art and be better people navigating the world. Best of all, Steve and Pam get to ramble about their special interests in Greek mythology and creativity while Jessica gets to enjoy her special interest of putting her two wacky friends in the same virtual place and recording the results all while Pixel cat is in her lap. You can find Steve Cleff’s work on his official website and support the Aphrodite project on his Patreon. Artists and books mentioned in this episode include: Katelan Foisy Chet Zar Kelly McKernan Alison Sommers Venus and Aphrodite: A Biography of Desire The Creation of Patriarchy Episode Notes Steve Cleff That's what I'm seeing when I interpret what's happening in the different societies and the roles of the different individuals. And you, you do see a break from nature, where nature becomes something instead of something. You're part of something to be conquered, right? And there's this separation there, and it sets up this perpetual conflict of things that used to be harmonious well, Pam Shaffer and it's like, if you're trying to conquer the thing that you also revere and fear, you get real weird about it. You Jessica Stoya I neglected to say push record before the most amazing introductions exchange Pam Shaffer we could we could aim for a dramatic recreation. I don't know what accent I affected. Jessica Stoya It's not, it's never the same. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do a, you know, trademark story, a ramble. TM when we were talking about meeting one last guest for season one. I said to Pam, I was just talking to my friend Steve. Steve clef, you got to be precise, with all the Steves in America, you gotta there's a lot of Steve, yeah, he's doing a big project. It's been going on for years on Aphrodite, and he's kind of ready at this point to start talking about it in public, showing pieces of it to the world. And the the neurodiversity thing, neuro provocateurs, that's the overarching theme. Steve, are you? Are you good to talk about how synesthesia effects, because we've been working together, Steve and I for like, 20 years. So I've heard a lot over the years, but there's, you know, we often have these separations between what we want on the public internet about how our brains work as it was like, Pam, Aphrodite synesthesia. What do you think? And Pam was like, Yeah, let's do it. And, like, eight days later, here we are. Steve Cleff So yeah, I'm happy to describe anything about synesthesia. I can't think of anything sensitive or embarrassing about it. So ask anything you want to know about that or that project or anything, and thanks for Jessica Stoya having me awesome. I, I, I'm just gonna ask Pam, you look so excited. What is your most burning question about Aphrodite, please. Let's have it. Pam Shaffer I was just like two of my special interests. One, human How exciting. How brains work. Greek mythology that extends beyond Greece. Steve Cleff There's a nice, I guess connection with Aphrodite in that there's many, many versions of Aphrodite, and one is Aphrodite mixus, maybe my favorite version, and it's basically when you combine two things and come up with a third thing. So here we are. Pam Shaffer Yes, I remember learning about that there were so many specific Aphrodite varietals, because I think of both Aphrodite and then, like Hecate, who also is a goddess that extends way beyond, like the Greek mythology version. And it's so fascinating to me that everyone kind of rolls them into one, or has like one idea of the Goddess. And I'm like, oh, oh, how did you start discovering the different aspects of Aphrodite? Yeah, Steve Cleff I have a friend who's also friends with Jess Caitlin foisey, who's just incredible everything, writer, artist, person, and we were talking about Aphrodite one day, and she said something about two aphrodites, and I hadn't heard of that before, even though I thought I had a decent knowledge of Greek mythology. And just for some background, I was kind of an Artemis guy. She was goth, and she she was independent, and all these qualities that I thought Aphrodite didn't have, right? So I had the kind of common perception of Aphrodite, as you see in pop culture, where she's vain and shallow. And you know this, that perception of like the vain, vapid, vulgar Venus, right? Right? And that was kind of what I had. And so I set off to find out more about two aphrodites. And I learned first about Aphrodite Morning Star, or Venus Morning Star and Venus evening star, which are two aspects of the Deity. And that goes back to prior deities Inanna and Ishtar, and many of them, which you know, but the average person doesn't. And then I read about Aphrodite uranium and Aphrodite pandemics in Plato's Symposium. And so I have to tell you that when I'm reading this, it's the summer of 2020, and we've got, yeah, it's fun times, and we've got a raging epidemic, we've got a recession, we've got, you know, a very volatile election that is happening where we don't know the fate of the world, and we had the George Floyd verdict, and the subsequent reaction to that verdict, and all that's happening. And, you know, I'm kind of feeling at the time like I feel foolish making art. You know, it seems self indulgent, and it seems like nothing in the face of everything that we need to manage. And so there's a reason why I give you that background. So I'm reading Plato's Symposium, and someone's summary of it, and he talks about two different types of love. And he talks about the love associated with Aphrodite Urania, which, in his opinion, is the good kind, which is about the love that men share amongst themselves when they're talking philosophy, and they're just hanging out and they're thinking about higher level things. And then the bad kind, which is from Aphrodite pandemos, which is about, you know, the physical connection between men and women, how that's a distraction from greater pursuits. And my first response was like, What an a*****e, right? Like, why? Why is he putting these judgments on these things and and, you know, I was joking with a friend who was explaining, like, this is the original bros before hose statement, right? Where it's good to pursue one thing that has nothing to do with women and bad to pursue another thing that involves women, and I'm going to use this representation of women to further my opinion that people should be doing one thing and shouldn't be doing another. And so I just just set off to learn more. And learned about 70 or so aphrodites, and that's just within Greece, and then all the antecedents going back to the beginnings of civilization and and then followed it up through today. So that's how I got started. Was being annoyed. But the thing that was interesting was that there was a typo for the person who would summarize this, and they called her Aphrodite pandemic. And so I just freaked out in the middle of a pandemic and and it made me think it planted a seed that turned into the story that I'm in the middle of writing with my wife, that I can talk about in a little bit. But it was just, it was shocking to see, you know, that there was two and there was an Aphrodite pandemic, and, you know, oh, and I have to tell you that part of the responsibilities of Aphrodite pandemos In Athens, about 400 BCE was to maintain political harmony. Yes, so we're all tearing each other apart in the middle of a pandemic. And here's this figure whose job it is to achieve harmony amongst divisive groups, and she's incorrectly named as pandemic, Jessica Stoya but Aphrodite pandemos is the one that in Plato's Symposium, is representative of the love between men and women. Okay, and that's, it's very, it's very, very. Do you know where I'm going? I Pam Shaffer think so. But I also have the linguistic explanation of why she would be called that in Athens at the time, Jessica Stoya not where I'm going at all, but I want to know it just, I'm thinking of like the what was it early 90s, men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Like this, like, idea that men and women are so separate, and, like, the whole internet knows how bad my periods are. My dude yesterday was like, I just It's stressful because I don't know what you want me to do to help? And I'm like, well, there's nothing you can do to help. And there is, there is a very real, if we're using kind of gender essentialist biological categories, there is something profoundly different about a body that menstruates and a body that doesn't, hasn't and never will experientially, so that there is, like one very visceral gap in experiences, but then it's the Aphrodite who connects these people, who's also the embodiment of helping groups that might not in. Inherently understand each other, connect and get along to have that right Pam Shaffer that actually does connect to linguistically, what it means too, which is amazing. I was like nerdy aside. And then back to Steve, because this is really fascinating, and what it auto correct. But pan i
