In this week's episode of The Autism Mums Podcast we're returning to the subject of PDA, or Pathological Demand Avoidance. PDA is a profile of autism where the standout feature is demand avoidance - and the behaviours that come with it are often misunderstood, dismissed as naughtiness or stubbornness. We're drawing on guidance from the PDA Society alongside our own lived experience to help you understand what's really going on, and what actually helps. Key TakeawaysPDA is an autism profile where everyday demands can trigger intense anxiety and a need for control.Responses commonly look like fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.Many children with PDA have a spiky profile - real strengths in some areas and significant challenges in others. Appearing articulate or socially capable can mask what's really going on inside.Some common approaches make things worse - strict routines, reward charts, behaviour systems, and countdowns can all increase anxiety and erode trust. It varies so much between children.Think of boundaries with an elastic band around them: knowing what really matters and letting the rest go.Language matters. Swapping direct demands for gentle suggestions, indirect phrasing, and offering real choices can make a significant difference.Responding with compassion, curiosity, and calm - even when you're screaming inside - is what keeps things from escalating.The PDA Society frames this as a human rights issue, grounded in dignity, freedom, and choice — and that perspective can help justify approaches that might feel counterintuitive to others.School settings often struggle with PDA because surface compliance hides deep need. Good assessment and clear educational planning really matter. Mentioned in This EpisodePDA Society - https://www.pdasociety.org.uk PDA Society Support and Training - https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/ Connect with The Autism MumsWebsite – https://theautismmums.com/ Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/theautismmums Follow us on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@theautismmums Follow us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/theautismmums Transcript57 - Parenting PDA [00:00:00] Victoria Bennion: In today's episode, we're returning to a subject that we've covered before PDA, but this time, , we wanna go a little bit more deeper into it, is it something that comes up on a regular basis? And particularly as we were talking about the transitions that the children are going through as they grow up, and how you then handle that with a PDA child. Natalie Tealdi: PDA, which is pathological demand avoidance and the behaviors that come with it are often misunderstood. We've both learned so much more since the episode we did on this before, and we want to share that experience with you. Victoria Bennion: Yeah, we're gonna make sure that we draw on guidance from the PDA society, and we'll combine that with our own lived experience. Talking about common traits. What happens when every day demands trigger intense anxiety, how a rights-based approach changes our responses and where you can go to for support. Natalie Tealdi: The PDA Society describes PDA as a profile of autism, where the standout feature is demand [00:01:00] avoidance. So people struggle with everyday demands, even ones they want or need to do. Victoria Bennion: Yeah, it's often mistaken for naughtiness or being really stubborn. So without the right understanding and support, PDA can really have a massive effect on daily life. Natalie Tealdi: The key point is this demand avoidance is usually driven by anxiety and a need for control. I think that's been a really important one for me to understand. I try to come at it as a point of view of. My child's anxious and they need support rather than them just being Defiant. Victoria Bennion: Again, I know we say this a lot, but it's can't rather than won't, but it's just the way those behaviors come out that I think to someone who doesn't know what's going on, it can look like your child's being really, really naughty. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. Victoria Bennion: I know that we have to be really careful about the language that. We use so that it doesn't come across as a demand, because , if it sounds like a demand and it can feel threatening to the [00:02:00] child and then their anxiety that they feel spikes into panic. So yeah. The PDA Society outlines four common responses. Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So fight can look like oppositional or aggressive behavior. Flights may be leaving, hiding, running away. I know some children climb trees to get away, to somewhere that's nice and quiet and away from Victoria Bennion: sound like you have experience of this. Natalie Tealdi: And freeze can be zoning out or becoming non-verbal. And fawn is people pleasing or over agreeing to avoid conflict. Victoria Bennion: Well that's interesting. Natalie Tealdi: Mm. Victoria Bennion: So one of my children certainly freezes. So it's the zoning out and becoming non-verbal. That's what I would see a lot. And I didn't have a good understanding of what PDA was for a while. I saw it as the fight that you would see. So it took me a little longer to realize that's what was going on. Natalie Tealdi: I think between us all four of those things are kind of covered by our kids. Victoria Bennion: [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. I think we can, we can cover those. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. Victoria Bennion: For sure. One of the things that we have to be careful about is for example, saying you need to go and have a shower now. That is just gonna be a flat out No. So I've learned over time that it's better to say. I think it would be a good idea to have a shower today. When would suit you? When do you think? Then even if we agree a time that would be forgotten. So I would then likely put a reminder on so it's not me then pressuring it's two o'clock, you said you'd have a shower at two o'clock. I get Alexa to do it. Natalie Tealdi: Right. Victoria Bennion: That seems to work better for us, but a teacher at my son's first school actually used some of those techniques with him , it was in a report that was done where someone was observing that she actually worked those into her, language. It said in the report that he was wearing gloves but had been given a laptop. So as she walked away, she said gloves off rather than, you must take [00:04:00] your gloves off. It was things like that Natalie Tealdi: like just a little suggestion, but also not even using the, the eye contact or anything. Victoria Bennion: That's what was picked up on I think it was quite skillfully done, and that's what's needed, but I've only really become aware of it in the last few months of how much. More I need to be using the techniques that would work for PDA rather than autism. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. I think it's something we've talked about as well is as the children are getting older and you want to encourage a bit of independence in some areas, but also is trying to find that right balance, isn't it, by gently encouraging, but not pushing and making them stressed. Victoria Bennion: Yeah, definitely. , Natalie Tealdi: PDA goes beyond just demand avoidance. Victoria Bennion: Yeah, Many people with PDA have what's known as a spiky profile, so they have real strengths in some areas and big challenges in others. For example, a child could be really articulate but completely unable to answer a direct question. When [00:05:00] stressed the words. Just go. I mean, that's definitely one of my children. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. And that masking can be exhausting. Surface behavior can make it look as though someone is coping, but that coping uses so much energy that it needs to break down later. Victoria Bennion: Yeah. I was recently actually in a meeting about one of my children and this came up and I was really surprised that. They obviously cover it so well that nobody sees those struggles. It's pretty much as we've just described, because they're articulate. No one's seeing like the intense emotions that are going on inside because they're managing that superficial social interaction. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So is it then like coming out? Victoria Bennion: Yeah. What I then see is refusal. And just an inability to cope and exhaustion. There are some approaches that are definitely going to be worse if a child has PDA. Natalie Tealdi: Yeah. So like strict routines, behavior charts. Did
