Devil's Advocate: Lawyer v. Lawyer Game Show

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Devil's Advocate: Lawyer vs. Lawyer Debate Game Show by MeanPug

Mar 11

Why Community-Focused Law Firms Are Winning in 2026 | Miriam Fisher

How can small immigration law firms compete with big firms that have larger teams, bigger budgets, and more advanced systems? In this episode of Hot Docket, Andrew and Tara sit down with Miriam Fisher, Founder and CEO of Las Abogadas RVA, an immigration law firm based in Richmond, Virginia. With more than 20 years of experience in immigration law, Miriam shares how she built a thriving community-focused firm while adopting the systems and discipline often associated with larger practices. The conversation covers Miriam’s path from criminal defense to immigration law, the story behind their rebrand to Las Abogadas, and the practical strategies that help smaller firms grow sustainably. She also shares her approach to pricing consultations, improving intake, experimenting with marketing, and building a brand that clients genuinely connect with. Tune in to learn: Tips for building a community-first immigration law firm How smaller law firms can outperform larger competitors Why their consultation fee is only $200 The importance of in-person consultations in a digital-first era What immigration lawyers can learn from personal injury firms How to gain community trust and build a strong legal brand Advice and resources for lawyers starting or scaling their own firms, including Miriam’s book Important Links and Resources: Buy “Mom’s a Lawyer: How to Start a Firm & Take Control of Your Life” by Miriam Fisher: https://www.momsalawyer.com/book Website: https://airingtonlaw.com For More Resources & To Talk to Miriam: https://www.momsalawyer.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawyer-like-a-mother If you have guest ideas or questions you would like our hosts to cover, please email info@hotdocketpodcast.com.Tune in to hear from more the Hot Docket podcast hosted by Bobby Steinbach and Andrew Nasrinpay on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Audible, Radio Public and more!

24 min
Mar 5

Lawyers Debate Influencer Culture, SEO Warfare & “Gravlune” | Geoff Lowe vs. Stuart Rudner

Welcome back to Devil’s Advocate, the business comedy podcast where sharp legal minds are forced to defend arguments they’d normally shred in court. In this episode, Canadian employment lawyers Stuart Rudner and Geoff Lowe of Rudner Law step into the arena for a marketing-meets-ethics showdown. The Wheel of Misfortune spins up hot topics including influencer culture, AI in law, Google Ads warfare, and whether brands should take a stance on social issues or stay comfortably neutral. Naturally, things escalate. ChatGPT makes a cameo. “It depends” becomes a recurring character. And a completely fabricated word enters the legal lexicon. Equal parts insight and absurdity, this face-off proves that even seasoned employment lawyers can be pushed into beautifully uncomfortable territory. 🔥 Highlights from the Showdown 📱 Influencer Marketing: Manipulation or Evolution? Is #ad culture a modern word-of-mouth revolution or precision-targeted persuasion dressed in athleisure? 🏳️ Brand Activism Debate Do companies have a responsibility to take social stands, or is corporate neutrality the safest business model? 🔎 Bidding on Competitor Names Smart marketing strategy or ethically questionable digital ambush? 🤖 AI in Law Is ChatGPT a productivity superpower or a confidence-inflating hallucination machine? 🌕 Word of the Month: “Gravlune” Stuart and Geoff take a stab at defining a completely fake word. Turns out they were disturbingly accurate. 💬 The “It Depends” Counter How many times can two employment lawyers say it in one episode? The limit does not exist… Final Verdict: Stuart admitted to consulting AI mid-debate, Geoff coined a word that shouldn’t work but somehow does, and the real winner might be whichever associate fact-checks them both tomorrow morning. The Wheel spins. The arguments flip. And once again, nobody leaves with their original opinion fully intact. Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping every month! Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Stuart Rudner, Managing Partner at Rudner Law LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartrudner Website: https://www.rudnerlaw.ca Geoffrey Lowe, Associate Attorney at Rudner Law LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreylowe Website: https://www.rudnerlaw.ca

25 min
12/05/2025

Bobby Just LEFT? | Bobby vs. Andrew

Welcome back to Devil’s Advocate, where the only rule is that you must argue the side you definitely don’t believe. This week, chaos reaches new heights as hosts Bobby Steinbach and Andrew Nasrinpay turn the tables on themselves… going head-to-head in a no-mercy debate that jumps from a controversial book to the future of legal marketing. Armed with nothing but sarcasm and the dreaded Wheel of Misfortune, Bobby and Andrew are forced to defend positions they’d normally roast each other for. One minute they’re arguing whether Mein Kampf belongs in high school curriculums (yeah, it gets spicy fast), the next they’re sparring over SEO budgets, law firm consolidation, and whether a $15k website is a smart investment or an expensive mid-life crisis. 🔥 Highlights from the Showdown📚 Controversial Classics Should Mein Kampf ever be taught in high school or is this debate already a tripwire? 💻 SEO vs. Everything Else Is SEO the backbone of law firm marketing… or the most overrated money pit in the industry? 🏢 The Future of Law Firms Will consolidation wipe out solos, or is the AI revolution actually their secret weapon? 🎟️ Conference Chaos Are legal conferences unmatched networking gold or expensive adult field trips with business cards? 🚿 Shower Etiquette Throwdown A simple household disagreement becomes a full-on philosophical battle (yes, seriously). Final Verdict: Bobby valiantly argued that conferences are best for networking (unless you hate people), Andrew tried to redefine “meaningful connection,” and the real winner turned out to be the legal tech subscription… because apparently, nobody can afford to network without it. Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping every month! Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests (aka Your Hosts): Bobby Steinbach, Founder of MeanPug Digital LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steinbachr Andrew Nasrinpay, Partner at MeanPug Digital LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-nasrinpay-a3162953

17 min
11/06/2025

Lawyers DEBATE Divorce, S*X Work & Going VEGAN?! | Russell Knight vs. Rahul Iyer

Welcome to Devil’s Advocate — the only legal show where lawyers are forced to argue AGAINST what they actually believe… and the results are completely unhinged. This week, Chicago divorce attorneys Russell Knight and Rahul Iyer battle it out over: 💔 Joint custody laws and mental health in divorce 💃 Sex work and marketing transparency 🌱 Whether EVERYONE should go plant-based to save the planet And if that’s not wild enough — we spin the Wheel of Misfortune 🎡 One spin = one hot topic = one very bad take they have to defend. It’s courtroom chaos meets comedy cage match, with a surprise argument over the word “floopery.” ⚖️ Part legal masterclass. Part roast battle. 100% chaos. 🔥 Highlights from the Showdown⚖️ Divorce Court Dilemmas Should joint custody be the default—or does “one-size-fits-all” just make things messier? 🧠 Mental Health & Marriage Should mental health influence custody or settlements? Both say yes… just not for the same reasons. 🌱 The Great Plant-Based Debate Does going vegan make you virtuous—or just unbearably smug? 💼 Marketing Mayhem Do lawyers need full transparency from their marketing teams—or should they just trust the process? 💋 Sex Work & Freedom of Choice Should it be legal? Cue the fireworks. 💬 Word of the Month: “Floopery” Chaotic clumsiness? Shapeless nonsense? However you define it, this episode has plenty. Final Verdict: Russell dropped the ultimate mic with “This is America,” Rahul made “floopery” the trending word no one knew we needed, and Bobby & Andrew just hoped someone might actually stick to the rules of the game for once. Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping every month! Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Russell Knight, Divorce and Family Law Attorney at Law Office of Russell D Knight LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/russell-d-knightWebsite: https://rdklegal.com Rahul Iyer, Divorce and Family Law Attorney at STG Divorce Law LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rahulaiyerWebsite: https://www.stglawfirm.com

23 min
10/03/2025

Lawyers Debate Kanye, Taylor Swift, Movies, and NURSING HOMES? Rob Schenk vs. Will Smith

This week on Devil’s Advocate, chaos meets courtroom logic as Will Smith (no, not that one) and Rob Schenk spin the Wheel of Misfortune and go head-to-head on some of the legal world’s quirkiest and thorniest questions. From strict liability in nursing homes to whether $15,000 is actually a fair price for a law firm website, no topic is safe. Along the way, they debate AI’s place in pre-litigation, the ethics of running Google Ads on competitors’ names, and whether Taylor Swift or Kanye West deserves the cultural crown (plus one very embarrassing gas station story). Oh, and don’t miss the debut of a brand-new legal term: “dravicular” — trust us, you’ll never look at a frantic drive home the same way again. 🔥 Highlights from the Showdown🐅Liability Gone Wild What do nursing homes and exotic animals have in common? Our debaters make the case in ways you’ll never forget. 🤖 AI on Trial Can robots really take over pre-litigation—or are we trusting the untrustworthy? 🤑 The $15,000 Website One lawyer calls it smart investment, the other calls it madness. Who’s right? 🎤 Pop Culture Meltdown: Tay vs. Ye Does Rob actually know anything about either of them?? 🎬 Will vs. Will “Independence Day” or “I Am Legend”—which blockbuster takes the crown? 💩 A New Word Is Born Don’t worry, you’ll laugh—and maybe cringe—when you hear their definitions of “dravicular”. Final Verdict: This one’s too close to call—Will scored Swiftie points, Rob owned the tiger analogies, and “dravicular” might just make it into Black’s Law Dictionary. Let’s call it a hung jury… and let the listeners decide who really won. Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping every month! Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Rob Schenk, Attorney at Schenk Nursing Home Abuse Law LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertlschenkWebsite: https://www.schenkfirm.comWill Smith, Senior Legal Counsel at Berry Law LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-smith-a9379aaWebsite: https://jsberrylaw.com

23 min
09/05/2025

Adam Rossen vs. Derek Martin: Should Lawyers Be TikTok Famous? | Devil’s Advocate

Chicago grit meets South Florida heat this week on Devil’s Advocate, as Derek Martin and Adam Rossen square off on censorship, cheeseburgers, clout, and credibility… and things get hot—“South Florida hot.” On today’s show, we’re debating medium-spicy topics from fast food regulation to whether lawyers should be TikTok famous (spoiler: probably not). But the chaos didn’t stop there… Derek and Adam put their imagination to the test by inventing a definition for the totally made-up word “plorish.” Call it comedy, call it courtroom training—just don’t call it credible legal advice. 🔥 Highlights from the Showdown🗣️ Social Media Censorship or Free Speech? Adam argued for curbing harmful content to protect society, while Derek fired back that moderation’s a slippery slope. The real question: do you trust big tech or the wisdom of the crowd? 🍔 Fast Food Freedom vs. Regulation Nation Should the government police your burger habit? Derek says protect public health, Adam says keep the McNuggets coming (Walmart scooters included). 📱 Are Influencers the New Celebrities? Adam insists TikTokers have star power. Derek says real fame takes more than selfies and pranks. ⚖️ Lawyers on Social Media: Credible or Corny? Is going viral a marketing edge or a professional risk? Both sides threw jabs at #LawTok. 🐙 Define: “Plorish” The only definition battle you’ll ever want to witness. Final Verdict: Call it a hung jury: Derek roasted influencers, Adam defended fast food freedom, and somehow “plorish” left us all questioning reality. Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping every month! Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Adam Rossen, CEO & Founding Attorney, Rossen Law Firm LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamrossenWebsite: https://www.rossenlawfirm.com Derek Martin, Owner & Managing Partner, Driver Defense Team LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekpmartinWebsite: https://www.driverdefenseteam.com

18 min
08/01/2025

Law Partners Debate Everything | John v. Keith

Welcome back to Devil’s Advocate, the show where legal debate meets comedic chaos! In this episode, we’re putting two partners from the Richmond Vona law firm, John Richmond and Keith Vona, through our signature debate gauntlet. This week, we’re debating everything from Google Ads ethics (should you bid on a competitor’s name?) to whether lowering legal fees is noble… or dangerously naive. And of course, it wouldn’t be Devil’s Advocate without a ridiculous twist: each of our guests must define a completely fake word. If you’ve ever wanted to hear two sharp trial lawyers debate plastic straws, insurance companies, and the true meaning of “verdantine,” buckle up. Let’s spin the wheel and see where the chaos takes us! Highlights from the Showdown: 🤼🏽‍♂️ SEO Smackdown: Is It King or Just Table Stakes? John and Keith flip the script on law firm marketing. One argues SEO is the holy grail—while secretly believing it's overhyped. Cue: BBQs vs. backlinks, and one very passionate rant about Google. 📊 Billboards vs. Digital Niches Both say go niche, go digital. But are lawyers turning into full-on marketers? (Spoiler: yes—and they kind of love it.) 🥤 Plastic Straws: Misunderstood Heroes? No one said ban them. Somewhere, a coffee shop silently rejoiced. Also Debated (with Questionable Logic):Should you ever settle when you could trial-by-fire it instead?Is NYC making you gritty or just too dependent on Seamless?And are lawyers now expected to be content creators, too?BBQs, billboards, and the ethics of subway rage—all covered.No CLE credit offered. Emotional damage? Possible.Psst! Got a devilish topic you want our guests to debate in a future episode? Comment of DM us with #DevilsAdvocate or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person at bark@meanpug.com. Subscribe to MeanPug Digital on YouTube & turn on notifications so you don’t miss a debate: https://www.youtube.com/@meanpugdigital Follow us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/devils-advocate-lawyer-v-lawyer-game-show/id1813413142 New episodes of Devil’s Advocate dropping regularly(ish). Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Keith Vona, Partner at Richmond Vona, LLC: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith-vona-41b6aa13 Website: https://www.richmondvona.com/our-attorneys/keith-r-vona John Richmond, Partner at Richmond Vona, LLC: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-richmond-66421a12 Website: https://www.richmondvona.com/our-attorneys/john-e-richmond

16 min
07/07/2025

LAWYER vs. Marketer: Who Wins the World’s WEIRDEST Debate? | Ft. Bob Simon & Chris Dreyer

On the latest episode of Devil’s Advocate, things got extra spicy as lawyer Bob Simon [Simon Law Group] and non-lawyer Chris Dreyer [Rankings.io] went head-to-head on everything from business strategies… to fast food favorites (yes, even the best breakfast burrito on the menu). But here’s the twist: they had to argue the opposite of what they actually believe. A true test of wit, perspective—and legal-level improvisation. Highlights from the showdown: 🧠 Arguing the Other Side Sharpens Your Own Taking the opposite stance—whether it’s about pineapple on pizza or pricing strategy—forces deeper thinking and sharper communication. Great practice for law, business, and life.💼 Business Insights You Won’t Hear Elsewhere Does offering lower legal fees really help clients—or does it tank service quality? Both sides brought fire to this hot-button issue.🎲 Embracing Randomness Leads to Creative Gold From naming made-up words (shoutout to “glimber”) to defending fast food hot takes, the chaos sparked genuinely useful ideas.Whether you're a legal pro, a curious business leader, or just in it for the banter, this episode delivers fresh perspective—and probably leaves you craving a McMuffin. 👉 What debate should we tackle next? Drop your idea below.

14 min
06/10/2025

Battle of the R's: Two Legal Marketers Debating OATMEAL and KANYE?! | Ft. Ryan Macris and Ron Latz

Is justice just another line item on a spreadsheet? Will Google allow you to have a castle? If these questions don't make sense or sound interesting- you are in the right place! Welcome to another episode of Devil’s Advocate, where the only thing hotter than the debates are the takes themselves! Hosted by Bobby and Andrew, this special installment—“Battle of the R’s”—brings together marketing pros Ryan Makris (Founder of Very Decent Marketer) and Ron Latz (Fractional CMO, LegalFenix) for a high-stakes marketing twist on our classic lawyer showdown. This episode spins the Wheel of Misfortune and careens through a gauntlet of controversial questions, from whether sex work and marijuana should be legal, to the perils and perks of AI in personal injury law and the impact of non-lawyer ownership in the legal world. But as always, there’s a devilish twist: our guests must argue for the OPPOSITE of what they actually believe! Expect hot debates on tough topics: Should you separate the artist from their art? Is bidding on a competitor’s name in Google Ads fair game or marketing malice? Along the way, wild hypotheticals, laugh-out-loud analogies, and a dash of absurdity keep things entertaining. If you’re ready for sharp wit, strong opinions, and the wackiest metal band brainstorm you’ve ever heard, grab your pitchfork and join us in the courtroom from hell. Let the depravity commence! This episode of Devil's Advocate is brought you by MeanPug, the legal marketing agency for law firms, and produced by Reignite Media. Ryan Macris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-makris/ Ron Latz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronlatz/

19 min
05/06/2025

Lawyer vs. Lawyer | The Wheel Spins, the Lawyers Lie, and “Dravish” Is Born ft. Morris Lilienthal and Erik Heninger

Welcome to Devil’s Advocate—a business podcast for lawyers, marketers, and mischief-makers where the arguments are unserious, the comedy’s questionable, and chaos is the business model. In our diabolical debut episode, two brave souls—Morris Lilienthal and Erik Heninger—step into the inferno. The catch? They’ve got to debate red-hot topics with one major twist: they’re arguing the opposite of what they actually believe. Chaos? Absolutely. Comedy? Obviously. Educational? ...Debatable. Hosted by Bobby and Andrew of MeanPug, this show throws real lawyers into fake debates with one rule: you must argue the exact opposite of what you actually believe. If that sounds ridiculous—it is. That’s the point. Coming Up On This Premiere Episode of Devil’s Advocate by MeanPug: Wheel of Misfortune The debut of our brand-new legal torture device: spin the wheel, get a word, and argue your opponent’s made-up definition. This week’s word? Dravish. Fake? Definitely. Hilarious? Also yes. Hot Topics with Cold Takes Should sex work and marijuana be legalized? Morris and Erik trade sides, defend positions they’d never touch in real life, and somehow manage to sound almost convincing. Mandatory Voting Does democracy work better when you force people to show up? Both attorneys go full dystopian and full idealist—all in the same 10 minutes. Also Debated (With Questionable Logic): - Is the death penalty an effective deterrent? - Are plastic straws the real villain? - Is the medical malpractice system broken or just misunderstood? - And should you ever settle a case when you could just trial-by-fire it? - Football metaphors and Tesla analogies included at no extra charge. Final Verdict? Erik squeaks out the win (barely), Bobby and Andrew name the real MVP (the word “dravish”), and Yitz just wants someone—anyone—to stay on topic. We Want to Hear From You Who won your (unserious) vote? Got a spicy topic or cursed legal question you want to hear argued next? Tag us with #DevilsAdvocatePodcast or send us a smoke signal. Or just email us like a normal person. Subscribe to “Devil’s Advocate”: New episodes dropping regularly(ish). Come for the chaos, stay for the accidental insight. Featured Guests: Morris Lilienthal: Martinson and Beason, P.C. https://www.linkedin.com/in/alabamacaraccidentattorney https://www.martinsonandbeason.com/attorneys/morris-h-lilienthal Erik Heninger: Heninger Garrison Davis LLC https://www.hgdlawfirm.com/lawyers/erik-s-heninger https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-heninger-1b984b34b

24 min

10 Episodes

Devil's Advocate: Lawyer vs. Lawyer Debate Game Show by MeanPug

Creator

MeanPug
Years Active

2025 - 2026
Episodes

10
Rating

Explicit
Show Website

Devil's Advocate: Lawyer v. Lawyer Game Show