Walking with the Tao

dvollaro

Welcome to Walking With the Tao! I am the host and creator, Daniel Vollaro. This podcast is based on the simple idea that philosophy is best done while walking. It’s not a new idea. Aristotle, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Henry David Thoreau all made connections between walking and thinking deeply. In this podcast, I hike with Andrew McEntyre—who has his own great walking podcast, Deep in the Woods—and we discuss passages from the Tao Te Ching, the great work of Chinese philosophy. The conversations are wide ranging, relatable, and relevant. Join us while we walk and talk.

Episodes

  1. 1.6 The Dark Beyond Dark

    Feb 28

    1.6 The Dark Beyond Dark

    Welcome to the sixth episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes together and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable.  For this episode, we hiked Noonday Park Trail in Kennesaw, Georgia. We focused on the opening passage of the Tao Te Ching. Here is the passage: The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way The name that becomes a name is not the Immortal Name The maiden of Heaven and Earth has no name The mother of all things has a name Thus in innocence we see the beginning In passion we see the end Two different names for one and the same The one we call dark the dark beyond dark the door to all beginnings In this episode, we went back to the very beginning of the book. “The way that becomes the way is not the Immortal Way / The name that becomes the name is not the Immortal Name.” This is a warning against reading too shallowly. It may even be a warning against trusting words to be the vehicle of the Tao. But then how do we find it and follow it? The book appears to frame itself in an impossible task right from the start.  The conversation is wide ranging, moving from Zen to grafitti to cave art to the mental capacities of trees. It’s our most philosophical conversation by far.  A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title.  The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by ⁠⁠Ryan Cherry⁠⁠.

    1h 14m

  2. Feb 28

    1.5 Get Rid of Wisdom and Reason...The Most Challenging Passage

    Welcome to the fifth episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes together and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide-ranging, relevant, and relatable. In this episode, we introduce the podcast and discuss section 19 of the Tao Te Ching while walking along the Leita Thompson Memorial Park in Roswell, Georgia. Here is the passage: Get rid of wisdom and reason and people will live a hundred times better get rid of kindness and justice and people once more will love and obey get rid of cleverness and profit and thieves will cease to exist but these three sayings are not enough hence let this be added wear the undyed and hold the uncarved reduce self-interest and limit desires get rid of learning and problems will vanish You may have noticed that we are jumping around the Tao Te Ching rather than following a straight path through it from beginning to end. Each episode points the way to the next passage, and the next topic; we’re discovering the path as we go, intuitively, which is the perfectly natural way to travel. This episode was especially challenging for both of us. We are both educators, so it is difficult to read the text so plainly as urging readers to discard wisdom, reason, kindness, justice, and learning. But Lao Tzu seems to be targeting the surface understanding of these words, the socially acceptable definitions of them, rather than rejecting the concepts outright. Wisdom isn't itself the problem; it's the socially sanctioned presentation of wisdom that does not flow from the Tao. And so on with the other concepts seemingly attacked in this passage. Not surprisingly, much of our conversation circled around education. I hinted at a more natural path in education that might be found in Francisco Ferrer's mantra from the Modern School in Spain, "No punishment, no reward--an education system free of coercion and institutionalized incentives that builds around the students' natural desire to learn. Andrew argued in favor of a more institutionalized approach, fearing that the most vulnerable students might fall through the cracks without such a system in place. A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title. The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by ⁠⁠Ryan Cherry⁠⁠.

    1h 21m

  3. 06/22/2025

    1.4 Look for the Tao in Trees

    Welcome to the fourth episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes together and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable.  For this episode, we were drawn back to Kennesaw Mountain, to a nature trail that begins at the visitor center at the base of the mountain. Our conversation mostly centered on the question, what is the Tao, with the metaphor of the uncarved block of wood taking center stage.  The trees spoke to us on this hike. We found ourselves repeatedly drawn back to them as a topic of conversation. Trees as the most visible representation of “the natural.” Trees as a potential form of consciousness. Trees as partners in a vast collaborative ecosystem. The uncarved block of wood was all around us as we walked and talked.  The conversation left both of us wondering how we know the Tao and how do you talk about it? We didn’t reach any definitive conclusions, but we agreed that the forest is a formidable teacher.  A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title.  The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by ⁠⁠⁠Ryan Cherry⁠⁠⁠.

    1h 7m

  4. 06/22/2025

    1.3 Water Finds Its Own Level

    Welcome to the third episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes together and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable. We returned to the Chattahoochee River for episode three, but further south this time. The river was a presence as we walked, appropriately so because our chosen passage, number 8, begins “The best are like water / bringing help to all.” The river’s presence helped us stay focused on the metaphor. Here is the passage from the Red Pine translation: The best are like water bringing help to all without competing choosing what others avoid they thus approach the Tao dwelling with earth thinking with depth helping with kindness speaking with honesty governing with peace working with skill and moving with time and because they don't compete they aren't maligned Our conversation revolved around humility and competition. We were interested in how the Tao Te Ching encourages a kind of humility that feels counter-intuitive in modern American society, which encourages people to lead with their egos. We also discussed competition, or rather non-competition. Our conversation quickly turned to capitalism. Are humans naturally competitive or cooperative? How do humans respond during a crisis, and is this any indication of how the Tao works? A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title. The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by ⁠⁠Ryan Cherry⁠⁠.

    1h 2m

  5. 06/22/2025

    1.2 Simplicity and Contentment

    Welcome to the second episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes together and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable. In this episode, we introduce the podcast and discuss section 80 of the Tao Te Ching while walking along the Hardage Mill and Noses Creek Trail at the foot of Little Kennesaw Mountain. Here’s the passage, from the Red Pine’s translation: Imagine a small state with a small population let there be labour-saving tools that aren't used let people consider death and not move far let there be boats and carts but no reason to ride them let there be armour and weapons but no reason to employ them let people return to the use of knots and be satisfied with their food and pleased with their clothing and content with their homes and happy with their customs let there be a state so near people hear its dogs and chickens but live out their lives without making a visit You may have noticed that we are jumping around the Tao Te Ching rather than following a straight path through it from beginning to end. Each episode points the way to the next passage, and the next topic; we’re discovering the path as we go, intuitively, which is the perfectly natural way to travel. In episode one, we briefly discussed the penultimate passage, number 80, which visualizes what a perfect country might be if its people lived according to the Tao. Lao Tzu outlines a happy, contented community that lives a simple, agrarian lifestyle but with a twist: they have all of the necessary tools to travel, expand their territory, and save labor and time, but they choose not to use them. This forced restraint seems counter-intuitive, and certainly counter to the values of modern Western societies. If you have tools, why wouldn’t you use them? In our conversation, we discuss the relationship between simplicity and contentment. At what scale of living can we discover happiness? What does it mean to not use labor-saving tools in the age of digital technology? What does the simple life mean to Lao Tzu? What might it mean for us? A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title. The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by ⁠Ryan Cherry⁠.

    1h 10m

  6. 06/21/2025

    1.1 The Trouble with Force

    Welcome to the first episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable. In this episode, we introduce the podcast and discuss section 29 of the Tao Te Ching while walking along the Chattahoochee River in Georgia. Here’s the passage, from the Red Pine’s translation: Trying to govern the world with force I see this not succeeding the world is a spiritual thing it can't be forced to force it is to harm it to control it is to lose it sometimes things lead sometimes they follow sometimes blow hot sometimes blow cold sometimes expand sometimes collapse therefore the sage avoids extremes avoids extravagance avoids excess The passage is a good place to begin a discussion of the Tao Te Ching because it touches a few of the key concepts—non-action, balance, and avoiding extremes. Lao Tzu begins by cautioning against using force. “To force it is to harm it / to control it is to lose it.” Our conversation is wide ranging, but it begins from here. Our discussion mainly revolves around force. What does Lao Tzu likely mean by force? How does force always produce a counter-reaction? What are its negative consequences, in family life, work, leadership, and foreign affairs? A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title. The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by Ryan Cherry.

    1h 18m
  • 6 Episodes

About

Welcome to Walking With the Tao! I am the host and creator, Daniel Vollaro. This podcast is based on the simple idea that philosophy is best done while walking. It’s not a new idea. Aristotle, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Henry David Thoreau all made connections between walking and thinking deeply. In this podcast, I hike with Andrew McEntyre—who has his own great walking podcast, Deep in the Woods—and we discuss passages from the Tao Te Ching, the great work of Chinese philosophy. The conversations are wide ranging, relatable, and relevant. Join us while we walk and talk.

Information

  • Creator
    dvollaro
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    6
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © dvollaro
  • Show Website
    Walking with the Tao