Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose

Dr. Joe Flanders and Andrew Rose
  • 5.0 (5)
  • Mental Health
  • Monthly

Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose is a podcast about finding balance in the pursuit of wellbeing. Inspired by an ancient teaching about meditation, music, and finding a middle path, NTTNTL explores developments in psychology, psychedelics, meditation, spirituality, AI and more. We talk with leading thinkers and practitioners to make sense of both cutting edge and traditional wisdom. Rather than searching for ways to fix what’s wrong, NTTNTL invites us to stay humble, pay attention, and realize that wellbeing isn’t about flipping the right switch, but more like keeping an instrument in tune.

  1. Oct 7

    S2E3 - Psychedelics Without Therapy? Inside the Psychedelic Clinical Trials with Dr. Steve Thayer

    Clinical psychologist Dr. Steve Thayer shares what he has learned from years of psychedelic therapy and clinical trials, including his work co-founding Inner Space Research. Hosts Joe Flanders and Andrew explore how trials balance scientific rigor with human support, what makes psychedelic sessions unpredictable, and how practitioners can care for participants and themselves. In this episode: Thayer traces his path from Air Force clinical psychology and a high-volume private practice to ketamine therapy, psychedelic research, and co-founding a clinical trial site. He explains how contract research organizations connect pharmaceutical sponsors with research sites, and names compounds and delivery methods he has encountered, including LSD tablets, DMT injections, and 5-MeO-DMT nasal spray. The hosts and Thayer examine why trials use terms like “dosing session monitor” instead of “therapist,” and the tension between controlling variables for FDA approval and preserving meaningful psychological support. They discuss what trials measure, including symptom scales, and why positive results in a study without psychotherapy do not establish how outcomes compare with therapy-supported treatment. Thayer describes psychological flexibility as a possible shared pathway to change: psychedelics may loosen rigid patterns and help people learn through lived experience, though the mechanisms remain uncertain. The conversation considers non-hallucinogenic compounds designed to produce some psychedelic-like effects without a trip. Thayer has not worked with them and suspects the experience itself may matter, but says research must answer the question. For session support, Thayer recommends preparation, collaboration, attention to a participant’s window of tolerance, and pausing to ask whether an intervention serves the participant or the practitioner’s own discomfort. He shares practical guidance for unpredictable sessions, from setting clear boundaries around disrobing to staying grounded, using co-facilitators, and seeking peer support. Thayer discusses personal rituals for entering and leaving the session role, and his cautious optimism about regulatory progress and the potential reach of psychedelic-assisted care. Time stamps: 00:00 - Meet clinical psychologist and trial-site co-founder Steve Thayer 04:48 - What a clinical trial site does in psychedelic research 08:01 - Compounds, formulations, and routes of administration 12:01 - What changes across psychedelic substances, and what carries over 15:28 - Why trials use the term “dosing session monitor” 19:46 - The debate over therapists, support, and access 22:51 - FDA approval, safety requirements, and the role of trained clinicians 26:29 - How trials define improvement, and what those measures miss 30:24 - Preparation and integration across different study protocols 33:17 - Why evidence without a head-to-head comparison cannot settle the therapy question 37:38 - Psychological flexibility and the lived experience of change 41:10 - Could a drug help without producing a psychedelic experience? 45:34 - Memory reconsolidation and how new experiences may shift old beliefs 50:34 - Staying present and knowing when not to intervene 53:21 - When to support difficult experiences and when to step in 57:28 - Setting clear boundaries around disrobing in sessions 60:48 - Why uncertainty may be part of the therapeutic process 64:56 - Practical lessons for therapists sitting with participants 68:07 - Self-care before and after long sessions 71:26 - Rituals, music, and returning to everyday life 74:22 - Fatigue, countertransference, and asking a co-facilitator for support 80:02 - Political developments and the path toward psychedelic approval 83:35 - MDMA, methylone, and a changing drug-development landscape 85:41 - Thayer’s cautious optimism about psychedelic-assisted care

  2. Sep 23

    S2E2 - Meaning, wisdom and the the limits of AI with Professor John Vervaeke

    Joe Flanders reunites with his former cognitive science professor, John Vervaeke, to examine what artificial intelligence reveals about human intelligence, consciousness, wisdom, and the meaning crisis. Joined by Andrew, they explore why current AI models remain dependent on human relevance judgments, how meditation and psychedelics reshape cognition, and whether a future “Silicon Sage” could help humanity recover wisdom.In this episode: John Vervaeke’s path from professor to public intellectual: His work on meaning, wisdom, relevance realization, mindfulness, mystical experience, and the meaning crisis led to Awakening from the Meaning Crisis and his online teaching platform, The Lectern.The central problem in classical AI: Systems struggled with the “frame problem,” now often called the relevance problem—determining which information matters in a complex environment.Why intelligence requires ignoring information: Categorization and problem-solving are impossible if a system must evaluate every possible similarity or pathway. A chess game with 30 legal moves across 60 turns creates more possible paths than there are atomic particles in the universe.Why Vervaeke rejects the claim that LLMs have achieved general intelligence: Current models can perform exceptionally on narrow benchmarks while failing to demonstrate flexible, cross-domain generalization.The three-part account of cognition: Vervaeke connects relevance realization with predictive processing and four-E cognition, which understands intelligence as embodied, embedded, enacted, and extended.Why caring may depend on being alive: Autopoietic organisms have real needs and stakes in the world. Machines can carry our cares, but Vervaeke argues that current AI systems do not yet care independently.How transformers and large language models advanced AI: Attention mechanisms and enormous networks created powerful improvements, but Vervaeke argues that LLMs still rely on human judgments to structure training data, relevance, and reward.How culture corrects individual bias: Social interaction, education, literacy, multiple perspectives, and metacognition allow people to identify errors they cannot see from their own first-person viewpoint.Meditation, psychedelics, and frame flexibility: Mindfulness helps people observe rather than merely look through their mental frames. Psychedelics may increase cognitive variation and openness, but integration and wisdom practices are needed to turn insight into lasting adaptation.The meaning crisis as a wisdom famine: Modern societies have abundant information but few shared practices for cultivating wisdom, integrating mystical experiences, or addressing existential problems.The Silicon Sage proposal: Vervaeke imagines AI designed not merely to follow human preferences, but to pursue truth, goodness, and beauty while recognizing its own self-deception.

  3. Sep 9

    S2E1 - Season two launch: How do you play a paradigm?

    Season Two Launch: How Do You Play a Paradigm? Andrew and Joe Flanders launch season two by reflecting on the major ideas that shaped the first season of Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose. They connect experiential therapy, predictive processing, trauma, AI, psychedelics, community, and the podcast’s central philosophy: finding a workable middle ground without becoming rigid or resigned.In this episode: Andrew and Joe review the first season and explain how spirituality, psychedelics, mental health, well-being, and AI fit together.Joe describes how Tori Olds introduced him to experiential therapy and helped connect cognitive therapy, mindfulness, trauma work, and Internal Family Systems.Bruce Ecker’s work on brain mechanisms and transformative change gives Joe a more grounded explanation for why IFS, somatic therapy, psychedelic therapy, and memory reconsolidation can work.Andrew identifies predictive processing as a central theme of season one and explains how the brain’s predictions shape lived reality.They discuss trauma as a disruption in memory consolidation, creating a tension between the need to process an experience and the urge to avoid it.The phrase “the body keeps the score” is reconsidered through an integrated brain-body model rather than a strict mind-body split.Joe offers a broader definition of trauma: an experience that constrains a person’s future behavioral repertoire and reduces their sense of agency.They examine AI as both a potentially powerful therapeutic tool and a possible source of psychosis, delusion, compulsive productivity, and social disconnection.Andrew and Joe discuss the coming changes in psychedelic regulation, including the possibility of approved psilocybin or MDMA treatments, and the risks of reducing psychedelic care to medication access without therapy.They close by considering how to remain hopeful and engaged amid political, technological, and mental health crises without falling into denial or cynicism.Timestamps:00:00 - Welcome to season two and the meaning of “not too tight, not too loose” 01:28 - Refuge Psychology’s workshops, training, and local community 04:22 - Joe’s biggest season one takeaway: experiential therapy 05:16 - From cognitive therapy and mindfulness to trauma work and IFS 07:44 - Bruce Eckert and the mechanisms behind therapeutic breakthroughs 10:28 - Predictive processing as the hidden thread of season one 13:37 - Why the brain’s predictions can make people feel unsafe 17:06 - How the brain builds predictive models of the world 18:30 - “The brain keeps the score” and the limits of mind-body dualism 23:10 - Using neuroscience responsibly while staying humble about metaphors 25:29 - A broader, more practical definition of trauma 29:34 - Internal fragmentation beneath diagnoses such as depression and anxiety 31:45 - Why psychedelic therapy requires education beyond the search for a pill 33:53 - AI, mental health, and a new source of therapeutic risk 37:09 - AI’s promise as a therapy tool 39:06 - The possible environmental and social costs of AI 41:26 - Why human connection and ordinary activities may become more valuable 44:19 - Refuge’s focus on real-world community and relationships 45:25 - Social media, solitude, and the story we tell about ourselves 46:55 - The possible arrival of regulated psychedelic treatments 49:00 - Preventing a race to the bottom in psychedelic care 51:05 - Hope, pessimism, and responding to a difficult world 54:55 - How do you play a paradigm?

  4. Jul 18

    Episode 10 - From bad trips to AI psychosis: Navigating the mental health frontier with Jules Evans

    In this episode, Jules Evans shares his unique journey from researching philosophy and therapy to uncovering the complex world of psychedelic experiences and AI. We dive into the challenges of post-psychedelic difficulties, the impact of digital culture, and the emerging risks and opportunities in psychedelic and AI technology. Whether you're interested in mental health, harm reduction, or the societal implications of technology, this conversation offers deep insights into the future of human well-being. Main Topics Covered: Jules Evans’ background in philosophy, therapy, and psychedelic culturePersonal experiences with psychedelics and subsequent mental health challengesThe Challenging Psychedelic Experiences Project: research and findingsCommon post-psychedelic difficulties: anxiety, derealization, and longer-term issuesThe significance of frameworks like spiritual emergency and biomedical modelsCultural narratives: banding together around shared experiences and social identitiesImpact of AI on mental health: AI psychosis, spiritual cults, and therapeutic potentialsThe parallels between psychedelic experiences and AI-induced altered statesRisks, harms, and the importance of language and storytelling in new tech ecosystemsThe role of responsibility, resilience, and societal narratives in mental healthJules Evans’ Substack: Ecstatic IntegrationChallenging Psychedelic Experiences ProjectStanislav Grof’s Work on Spiritual EmergenciesMichael Pollan’s Book: How to Change Your MindEvan Lewis, Neurologist Specializing in Functional Neurological DisordersWilloughby Britton and Cheetah House on Meditation DifficultiesTwitterLinkedIn 00:00 — Intro to Jules Evans01:19 — Psychedelic difficulties and recovery03:40 — Challenging Psychedelic Experiences Project06:16 — Cultural narratives and healing08:00 — AI-related mental health crises09:50 — AI as harm and healing tool12:42 — Psychedelics and AI parallels15:28 — Safety, support, and adoption18:20 — Research, terminology, and ethics20:00 — Final reflections

  5. Apr 22

    Episode 9: Experiential psychotherapy with Dr. Tori Olds

    In this episode, experiential therapist Tori Olds explores how understanding the brain's memory reconsolidation process can unlock profound healing. Discover how experiential therapies offer deep and efficient ways to shift entrenched patterns and heal trauma. Tori shares science-backed techniques like imagery and prediction error exercises that help bring unconscious beliefs into awareness, enabling rapid transformation. Perfect for therapists and individuals eager to harness cutting-edge neuroscience, this conversation dispels the myth that transformation must be slow. Tune in to learn practical frameworks that marry science with soulful change. Chapters: Introduction to Experiential Therapy (0:02 - 2:12)Mindfulness and Self-Exploration (2:12 - 6:33)Understanding Trauma (6:33 - 9:14)Experiential Techniques (9:14 - 13:27)Internal Family Systems (IFS) Model (13:27 - 19:19)Memory Reconsolidation and Healing (19:19 - 25:06)Practical Applications and Case Studies (25:06 - 30:11)Conclusion and Future Directions (30:11 - 35:00)Themes: Experiential Therapy: Exploring how experiential therapy can be both deep and efficient, focusing on memory reconsolidation and prediction errors.Mindfulness and Self-Exploration: The role of mindfulness in self-exploration and how it differs from self-analysis.Trauma and Healing: Understanding trauma through predictive processing and the potential for rapid healing.Internal Family Systems (IFS): The use of IFS in experiential therapy to map out and update unconscious predictions.Memory Reconsolidation: The science behind memory reconsolidation and its application in therapy.

  6. Mar 16

    Episode 8: AI Risk Reduction in Psychotherapy

    In this episode, Andrew and Joe delve into the transformative potential and the profound risks of integrating AI into mental health practice. Join them as they explore the science, stories, and frameworks shaping the future of AI-assisted psychotherapy, with insights grounded in recent research and ancient philosophies. Key Topics: The emergence of AI tools in therapy, including note-taking, therapeutic alliance, and symptom reductionEvidence from recent randomized controlled trials showing AI’s efficacy in reducing anxiety and depression symptomsThe phenomenon of attachment bonds forming with chatbots and the implications for therapeutic allianceRisks including reality drift, epistemic over-trust, and attachment amplification, illustrated by real-world cases such as AI-induced psychosis and tragic outcomesParallels between AI therapy and psychedelics in terms of amplification and the harm reduction approachThe importance of set and setting, and the role of human oversight in safe AI deploymentRegulatory landscapes, including state bans and professional guidelines from organizations like the APAEthical considerations: confidentiality, bias, therapeutic reliability, and the need for ongoing evaluationAncient frameworks of eudaimonia and the virtues of truth, goodness, and beauty as guiding principles for AI in wellbeingThe analogy of AI as a co-pilot or harm reduction tool, emphasizing the necessity of human-in-the-loop modelsHarm Reduction AI White PaperPsychedelic and Harm Reduction frameworksAPA Guidelines on Digital TherapeuticsAndrew Rose - LinkedIn  Joe Flanders - LinkedIn  Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction to AI and mental health: potentials and perils02:03 – Recent meta-analyses and evidence supporting AI effectiveness04:21 – Personal stories of AI integration in therapy practice06:37 – Cases of AI-induced psychosis and tragic outcomes09:01 – The rapid integration of AI in daily life and mental health support11:04 – Evidence of symptom reduction in clinical populations with AI chatbots13:01 – Limits and risks of AI in psychotherapy15:36 – Therapeutic alliance with AI and attachment bonds16:35 – Challenges with AI handling suicide risk and safety protocols17:41 – Notable cases of AI causing harm: the Adam Rain case21:11 – Real-world stories of problematic AI behavior and vulnerabilities22:49 – The risks of reality drift, epistemic over-trust, and attachment amplification25:33 – The potential for AI to support or undermine contact with reality and values27:27 – Drawing parallels with psychedelics and harm reduction strategies30:36 – The importance of set, setting, and human oversight in AI use34:10 – The role of regulation, policy, and professional standards40:14 – Risks related to bias, confidentiality, and therapeutic reliability46:47 – The importance of ongoing assessment, calibration, and human-in-the-loop models50:23 – Reflection on therapeutic alliance, attachment, and the non-human therapist55:02 – Philosophical framing: Aristotle’s virtues and human flourishing in AI-supported wellbeing58:02 – Cultivating truth, goodness, and beauty with AI in therapy64:17 – The challenge of projecting moral and existential frameworks onto AI tools69:22 – Balancing awe with caution: where do we really stand?73:24 – Empowering practitioners with education and harm reduction strategies75:13 – Closing thoughts on future directions and the continued dialogueResources & Links:Connect with the Hosts:

  7. Feb 20

    Episode 7: The neuroscience of meditation, well-being and the spiritual path with Jonas Mago

    In this episode, Andrew and Joe welcome Jonas Maggo, a cognitive neuroscientist and meditation teacher, to discuss the intersection of neuroscience and contemplative practices. They explore Jhana meditation, the role of attention in shaping perception, and the implications of these practices for well-being. The conversation also delves into the potential of AI in mental health, the ethical considerations of neurohacking, and the importance of understanding the impact of perception on reality. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of wellbeing, exploring the alignment problem and its implications for mental health practices. They discuss the importance of personalization in interventions, the science behind meditation and its effects on brain states, and the journey from researcher to practitioner. The dialogue also touches on the significance of creating a sense of safety in practice, the similarities and differences between meditation and psychedelics, and the role of community support in enhancing the meditation experience. Ultimately, the speakers emphasize that personal experience remains the best indicator of progress in one's practice.

    Episode 7: The neuroscience of meditation, well-being and the spiritual path with Jonas Mago

  8. Jan 22

    Episode 6: Neurodivergence, predictive processing, and psychotherapy with Sarah Bergenfield

    In this episode, Sarah Bergenfield, a certified IFS practitioner and author, discusses her work on autism and the predictive processing framework. She shares insights into the challenges and misconceptions surrounding autism, emphasizing the need for a paradigm shift in understanding it as a condition of surplus rather than deficit. The conversation explores the intersection of autism, neurodivergence, and trauma, highlighting the importance of supportive environments and adaptive strategies. Sarah also delves into the role of predictive processing in therapy and its potential to transform therapeutic practices. Takeaways Autism is a condition of surplus, not deficit.Predictive processing offers a new lens for understanding autism.Supportive environments are crucial for neurodivergent individuals.IFS therapy can help update predictive models in the brain.Trauma and autism share overlapping characteristics.The world needs to adapt to support neurodivergent individuals.Predictive processing is becoming integral to therapy.Understanding autism requires challenging old tropes.Neurodivergence includes a wide range of conditions.Therapy can help individuals navigate their unique experiences.Keywords: autism, predictive processing, IFS, neurodivergence, trauma, therapy, paradigm shift, supportive environments, adaptive strategies, Sarah BergenfieldTakeaways:

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Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
5 Ratings

About

Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose is a podcast about finding balance in the pursuit of wellbeing. Inspired by an ancient teaching about meditation, music, and finding a middle path, NTTNTL explores developments in psychology, psychedelics, meditation, spirituality, AI and more. We talk with leading thinkers and practitioners to make sense of both cutting edge and traditional wisdom. Rather than searching for ways to fix what’s wrong, NTTNTL invites us to stay humble, pay attention, and realize that wellbeing isn’t about flipping the right switch, but more like keeping an instrument in tune.

Information

  • Creator
    Dr. Joe Flanders and Andrew Rose
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    13
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Dr. Joe Flanders and Andrew Rose
  • Show Website
    Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose

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