The Serving Second Podcast

Toussaint Williams, PhD
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The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.

  1. Jul 30

    Surrounded! - What do I do now? E-38

    What Do I Do Now?You went to bed thinking everything was fine. You woke up surrounded. In this solo episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams walks through 2 Kings 6, the story of Elisha's unnamed servant, to answer the question every second-chair leader eventually asks out loud: what am I supposed to do now? This week Toussaint steps away from the interview chair for a solo teaching episode built around one of the most overlooked figures in scripture, the unnamed servant who serves the prophet Elisha. When a Syrian army surrounds the city hunting for Elisha, the servant is the first one to see it and the first one to panic. Toussaint uses that moment to unpack what it feels like to carry pressure you did not create, a reality every second-chair leader knows well. He also opens up about a difficult season his own family has walked through over the past few months, and the leadership lessons he is still working through in real time. The episode closes with a practical three-step framework for leading through a crisis without losing your footing. In This EpisodeWhy the story of an unnamed servant in 2 Kings 6 says more to second-chair leaders than the story of the prophet doesWhat it means to carry pressure you did not create and did not ask forA personal update on a season of family challenge Toussaint and his wife have been navigatingThe difference between fear knocking on the door and fear getting a seat at the decision-making tableWhy Elisha's first prayer was not for the problem to disappear, but for eyes to see clearlyA three-step framework for leading through a crisis: see clearly, seek perspective, move without panicTimestamps0:00 - The moment everything changes overnight1:49 - The story behind the story: 2 Kings 6 and the unnamed servant3:32 - The international crisis: the king of Syria hunts down Elisha6:37 - The servant wakes up surrounded9:47 - The most honest question in scripture: "What are we going to do?"10:23 - Toussaint's personal story: a season of major family challenges14:18 - What Elisha does not do, and why it matters16:36 - Fear counts what is against you. Faith remembers who is for you.19:04 - Elisha's prayer: "Open his eyes that he may see"21:03 - The mountain was already full of horses and chariots of fire22:16 - Calm is contagious. So is panic.24:13 - The ending nobody expects: grace over violence26:22 - Three steps for when you feel surrounded28:37 - Closing encouragementThe Framework: When You Feel SurroundedSee clearly. Don't exaggerate the problem. Don't minimize it either. Call it what it is.Seek perspective. Pause and pray. Invite wise counsel. Ask yourself what you might not be seeing right now.Move without panic. Not without caution, not without prayer, but without panic. Take the next faithful step, then trust God with the one after that.Connect with Dr. Toussaint WilliamsServing Second Podcast, helping leaders maximize the gifts in their hands and master the seat they currently occupy. Website: servingsecond.com If this episode met you where you are, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a second-chair leader who needs to hear it this week.

    Surrounded! - What do I do now? E-38

  2. Jul 24

    He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37

    Your boss walks the floor at 5:15 checking who's still at their desk. Kevin Wayne Johnson made sure his chair was already empty, every single day, for over three decades in federal government leadership. He still made director. Here's how leading from the second chair taught him that presence at home builds the same trust presence at work does. Episode SummaryKevin Wayne Johnson spent 34 years in federal acquisition and contract management, rising to a director-level role overseeing teams in New York, Los Angeles, and London. He is also the author or co-author of 24 books on faith, leadership, and the writing craft, and he leads the Johnson Leadership Group today. In this episode, Kevin traces his leadership foundation back to fatherhood, specifically to a father who served in Vietnam and stayed connected through recorded voice tapes mailed home. That model of presence became the standard Kevin held himself to with his own two hour daily commute and his own kids. He explains the choice he made to leave work at 5 PM without exception, why his leadership earned him the room to do it, and how that same discipline shaped his writing career. This conversation is for the leader who feels like showing up for family and showing up for the mission are in competition. Kevin's story is proof they are not. What You'll LearnWhy presence, not perfection, is the trait that shapes the next generation of leadersHow to set a hard boundary at work without losing your boss's trust or your next promotionWhat earns you the credibility to protect your personal life when everyone else is staying lateHow to build a writing or coaching practice around your life instead of sacrificing your life for itThe mindset shift from doing impressive work to making a positive impact on the people around youTimestamps00:00 Welcome to Kevin Wayne Johnson 00:21 The one thing that shaped his leadership: fatherhood 01:07 What his own father modeled growing up 03:12 Voice tapes from Vietnam and why presence matters to a child 04:23 The difference in proximity: his commute versus his father's absence 06:31 Telling his bosses that family comes first 08:08 Earning the trust to leave at 5 PM every day 09:47 What his director-level role actually involved 11:41 From federal career to 24 published books 14:44 Why he never pigeonholes his writing schedule 15:13 Making a positive impact without needing the spotlight 16:34 Where to find Kevin and the Johnson Leadership Group Connect with Kevin Wayne JohnsonWebsite: https://www.thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com Email: kevin@thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com About the HostDr. Toussaint Williams is a pastor, author, and leadership consultant, and the host of the Serving Second Podcast, the show for the leaders behind the leaders. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. Keywordsleadership development, second-chair leadership, leading from the second chair, work life balance for leaders, federal government leadership, executive leadership, influence without authority, faith-based leadership, associate pastor leadership, Serving Second Podcast

    He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37

  3. Jul 10

    Stop Waiting for Your Turn: The Real Meaning of Serving Second - E36

    What if the seat you are waiting to leave is the very place where your leadership is being developed? In this special solo episode, Toussaint resets and reintroduces the heart of Serving Second. After months of conversations with high-performing leaders, he recognized that the movement had been framed too narrowly. Serving Second is not about accepting a lesser position, becoming comfortable in the background, or waiting for your turn to lead. It is about maximizing your gifts, mastering your current assignment, and creating first-place outcomes from whatever seat you occupy. Drawing from the stories of Jonathan and David, Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan, and CJ Quinney and Eric Thomas, Dr. Williams explores the security required to use your abilities to strengthen someone else. These leaders did not serve second because they lacked talent. They chose to leverage their talent for a mission bigger than personal recognition. Dr. Williams also shares his own struggle with being overlooked for positions he believed should have been his. That disappointment forced him to confront a difficult question: Was he genuinely serving the mission, or was he quietly waiting to be chosen? You will learn the difference between position and posture, service and negotiation, ambition and insecurity, and excellence and performance. You will also discover the four pursuits every leader must develop: character, competence, contribution, and calling. Serving Second is a challenge to become greater in your stewardship, discipline, service, and impact. In this episode: Why Serving Second needed a resetHow titles distort our understanding of leadershipThe difference between serving and waitingWhy disappointment exposes where your identity is rootedHow position differs from postureWhy quiet gifts still carry tremendous valueThe four pursuits of extraordinary stewardshipWhy the greatest leaders make everyone around them betterKey takeaway: You are not powerless because you do not have the title you want. Your opportunity is already here. Your gifts are already enough. Your assignment has already begun. Chapters: 00:16 – The pain of being misunderstood 01:30 – Where Serving Second missed the mark 03:50 – A reset for the movement 05:26 – The dangerous way we measure leadership 06:34 – Stop waiting for a better seat 08:04 – Watching Eric Thomas’s journey 10:35 – Why meeting CJ Quinney mattered 13:00 – Choosing to put someone else first 15:00 – Jonathan’s rightful claim to the throne 17:30 – Strengthening the person God selected 19:32 – Serving Second begins inside you 20:00 – When the position you expected never comes 21:39 – Proximity is not a promise 22:44 – Are you serving or waiting? 24:43 – When excellence becomes a bargaining chip 25:28 – Position versus posture 27:10 – Service, performance, and stewardship 28:17 – Learning to value quiet gifts 30:02 – Stewarding disappointment 31:18 – Becoming valuable right now 33:34 – The new direction of Serving Second 34:40 – Pursuit one: Character 35:58 – Pursuit two: Competence 37:05 – Pursuit three: Contribution 38:05 – Pursuit four: Calling Reflection questions: Am I faithfully serving, or am I quietly waiting to be chosen?Have I confused proximity to a position with a promise of promotion?What gift comes naturally to me that I may be undervaluing? Subscribe to the Serving Second Podcast and share it with someone whose contribution deserves to be recognized. Maximize your gifts. Multiply your impact. Keep Serving Second.

  4. Jul 2

    He Built Companies, Then Realized He Was the Problem - E35

    Servant leadership is not soft leadership. It may be the most strategic way to get real results. In this episode Toussaint sits down with Kurt Uhlir for a direct conversation about leadership, humility, business outcomes, and the hard personal work required to become the kind of leader people can trust. Kurt started his first businesses at 14 years old. One was a lawn care company that grew so quickly he had friends and even adults working for him. Early on, he learned how to sell, organize systems, and produce results. But later, he had to face a painful truth. He was getting results, but he was not leading well. Kurt shares the moment his mentor and his mother both told him the truth he did not want to hear. He had become a toxic authoritative leader. He was demanding outcomes, but creating fear. He was pushing people, but not truly developing them. He was leading in a way that caused bad information to stay hidden and good information to be filtered. That wake-up call changed the way he viewed leadership. This episode is not just about being nicer at work. Kurt makes the business case for servant leadership. He explains why fear-based leadership slows organizations down, why leaders miss critical information when people are afraid to speak honestly, and why serving people well can improve performance, trust, retention, and decision-making. Dr. Williams and Kurt also discuss the power of being a second-chair leader, operator, and “kingmaker.” Kurt explains why he finds deep fulfillment in helping other leaders succeed instead of always trying to sit in the top chair himself. He also talks about what it takes to support a leader well, ask better questions, understand organizational outcomes, and serve the whole person, not just the employee. One of the strongest moments in the conversation is Kurt’s reminder that leaders must create space for honest feedback. If people cannot tell you where you are wrong, your organization will eventually pay for it. Healthy conflict is not a threat to leadership. It is one of the ways leadership gets better. This conversation is for executives, entrepreneurs, ministry leaders, second-chair leaders, operators, and anyone who wants to lead with both excellence and humility. In this episode: • Why early success can hide unhealthy leadership patterns • How Kurt moved from toxic authority to servant leadership • Why fear-based cultures block honest information • How servant leadership creates better business outcomes • Why leaders must care about the whole person • What it means to be a kingmaker or queen maker • How second-chair leaders can bring value without chasing the spotlight • Why healthy conflict must be modeled, not just talked about Leadership Challenge: Ask yourself, “What am I wrong about right now that I think I’m right about?” Then ask someone on your team, “What am I missing that I need to know?” Do not defend yourself. Do not explain it away. Ask clarifying questions. Listen. Learn. Then lead better. Guest: Kurt Uhlir Website: kurtuhlir.com About Serving Second: Toussaint helps leaders maximize the gifts they already have in the seat they currently occupy. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. When you serve with clarity, excellence, humility, and skill, you can create first-place outcomes from wherever you lead. Subscribe for more conversations on servant leadership, second-chair leadership, business leadership, ministry leadership, personal growth, and leading well from wherever you are. #ServingSecond #SecondChairLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #BusinessLeadership #ChristianLeadership #ExecutiveLeadership #TeamLeadership #ToussaintWilliams

  5. Jun 25

    The Science of Yes! - E34

    The Science of Ethical Persuasion Second-chair leaders don't always have the final say — but the most effective ones know how to influence without authority. In this episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams sits down with ethical persuasion expert and keynote speaker Patrick van der Burght (Melbourne, Australia) to unpack the science behind ethical influence and what it means for leaders in every sector. 🎯 What You'll Learn in This Episode: Why persuasion is NOT manipulation — and why the difference matters for leadersHow Dr. Robert Cialdini's 7 Principles of Influence apply to real-world leadershipThe "Unity" principle and why co-creation makes teams more loyal and forgivingHow loss language outperforms gain language when motivating behaviorA real case study: how one question boosted patient case acceptance by 33.5% across four dental clinicsWhy knowledge alone isn't power — and what application skill actually looks like⏱️ Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome & Introduction02:09 — What is ethical persuasion?04:13 — Patrick's origin story: scuba diving, cassette tapes & Dr. Cialdini13:00 — Cialdini's 7 Principles of Influence explained45:00 — Real-world application for second-chair leaders53:31 — Consistency & Scarcity principles unpacked59:10 — One principle leaders can apply THIS week👤 About the Guest: Patrick van der Burght is an ethical persuasion trainer, keynote speaker, and host of the Ethical Persuasion Unlocked podcast, based in Melbourne, Australia. He is a certified expert in the science of influence rooted in the research of Dr. Robert Cialdini. 📌 Website: ethicalpersuasion.com.au 🎙️ Podcast: Ethical Persuasion Unlocked (start from Episode 1) 📘 Free eBook + Email Challenge: ethicalpersuasion.com.au/free 🎙️ About the Serving Second Podcast: Hosted by Dr. Toussaint Williams — pastor, author, and executive leader — the Serving Second Podcast equips second-chair leaders to create first-place outcomes from wherever they serve. 🌐 servingsecond.com | 📺 YouTube: youtube.com/@servingsecond #ServingSecond #EthicalPersuasion #LeadershipPodcast #InfluenceScience #SecondChairLeadership #Cialdini #LeadershipDevelopment

  6. Jun 11

    Vision is Easy - Execution Needs a #2! - E33

    What does it really mean to serve second with excellence? Toussaint sits down with Derek Fredrickson, founder of The COO Solution, to talk about the power of operators, COOs, chiefs of staff, and second-in-command leaders who help turn big vision into real execution. Derek shares how he left Wall Street to work alongside his wife in her successful business coaching company and discovered his gift for operations, systems, structure, and team leadership. He explains why the second-in-command role is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. This conversation is for every leader who knows they are wired to build, organize, execute, finish, and make other people’s ideas work. Derek breaks down the role of a COO as the bridge between vision and execution. He explains why visionary leaders need operators who can create accountability, build structure, lead teams, protect focus, and help the organization move forward. One of the strongest takeaways from this episode is simple: the world needs great second-in-command leaders. Keywords Fractional COO, Leadership, Second in Command, Business Growth, Personal Development, Trust, Accountability, Entrepreneurial Success Takeaways Embrace your unique strengths and gifts to excel in leadership roles. Building trust is essential for effective team management. Assessments like Colby and Strengths Finder help clarify your innate abilities. A fractional COO can be a strategic bridge between vision and execution. Understanding your zone of genius unlocks greater impact and fulfillment. Sound bites "We are the ones that finish what others start." "The world needs us, and our unique gifts make a difference." "Assessments reveal your true wiring and strengths." Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Serving Second Podcast 02:18 Derek's Journey to COO 05:12 Working with Spouse: A Unique Dynamic 08:10 Understanding the Fractional COO Model 11:02 The Role of a COO in Business 13:41 Embracing the Second-in-Command Role 14:17 The Journey of Self-Discovery in Entrepreneurship 19:06 Building a Culture of Accountability 22:51 The Difference Between Average and World-Class COOs 28:44 Understanding Your Role as a Second-in-Command 32:29 Embracing Your Unique Strengths Resources Kolbe Assessment - https://www.kolbe.com/ Strengths Finder by Gallup - https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/home.aspx The CEO Solution Podcast - https://thecoosolution.com/podcast Derek Fredrickson on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekfredrickson/ guest links Website - https://thecoosolution.com/

    Vision is Easy - Execution Needs a #2! - E33

  7. Jun 5

    Building Generational Wealth - E32

    What if your money problem is not just about money? In this episode, Toussaint sits down with Albert Butler, CPA, to talk about financial literacy, family legacy, entrepreneurship, purpose, and the responsibility of building something that lasts beyond you. Albert brings nearly 30 years of experience in public accounting, private industry, entrepreneurship, and personal finance. But this conversation goes deeper than taxes and spreadsheets. It is about understanding your numbers, leading your family well, building a business with wisdom, and aligning your financial decisions with your purpose. Albert shares why “accounting is the heartbeat of business,” why every family should think like a business, and why legacy is not just about what you leave for your children, but what you prepare for your children’s children. Key Leadership LessonMoney is not the mission. Money is a tool. For second-chair leaders, entrepreneurs, pastors, business owners, and professionals, the deeper question is not just “How do I make more money?” The better question is, “Why am I building this, and who will benefit from it after me?” Albert reminds us that strong leaders do not just manage numbers. They manage responsibility. They think about family. They think about structure. They think about legacy. Albert’s Five Muscles of EnterpriseAlbert breaks down five muscles every business, leader, and entrepreneur must develop: Leadership - The vision, mission, goals, and objectives that guide the work.Operations = How the business flows day to day.Sales - How you take your product, service, or message to the market.IT Infrastructure - The data, systems, and information flow that protect and support the organization.Accounting - The heartbeat of the enterprise. Accounting tells the past, shows the present, and helps forecast the future.Practical TakeawaysHave real money conversations with your children and family. Stop treating financial literacy as optional. Find a CPA before you are in crisis. Know what your tax return says about your financial life. Build your business around structure, not just passion. Lead with purpose, then let money serve that purpose. Write down your dreams and identify the one that keeps pulling you forward. Guest InfoAlbert Butler, CPA Website: AlbertButler.com Connect with Albert on social media by searching Albert Butler CPA. About Serving SecondServing Second helps leaders maximize the gifts they already have in the seat they currently occupy. This podcast is for second-chair leaders, assistants, associates, vice presidents, ministry leaders, entrepreneurs, and anyone who wants to create first-place outcomes through service, skill, and excellence.

    Building Generational Wealth - E32

  8. May 29

    Leadership in the AI Age - E31

    Most leaders think pressure reveals weak people. But what if pressure actually reveals weak team systems? In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Toussaint Williams talks with Daria Rudnik about how second-chair leaders can build teams that click under pressure, navigate disruption, and stay human in the age of AI. If you serve behind the leader, carry team tension, or feel responsible for helping others succeed, this conversation will give you practical tools to lead with clarity, not control. Key Leadership LessonThe leader’s job is not to rescue the team. The leader’s job is to facilitate the conversations that help the team rescue itself. Daria makes the point clearly: outdated leadership says the leader must know everything, solve everything, and carry everything. Modern leadership requires something different. Leaders must create the conditions where the team can define purpose, build trust, make better decisions, share knowledge, and adapt together. For second-chair leaders, this is a powerful shift. You do not need the top title to strengthen the team. You can help create the conversations, systems, and clarity that allow the team to perform. Main TakeawaysDaria identifies five elements that make a team “click”: Clear purpose A group does not become a team just because they report to the same manager. A team becomes a team when it has a shared purpose that cannot be accomplished by individual effort alone.Linking connections Strong teams build trust internally and understand their connection to stakeholders outside the team.Integrated work Teams need clarity around roles, norms, expectations, and how the work actually gets done.Collaborative decisions Healthy teams know which decisions belong to the leader, which belong to individuals, which require group input, and which can be delegated or automated.Knowledge sharing and feedback Teams must learn together, adapt together, and create feedback loops that help them improve over time. Keywords Leadership, Team Building, AI in Leadership, Global Work Experience, Authentic Leadership, Lifelong Learning, Team Dynamics, Second Chair Leadership Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:38 Building Strong Teams 06:46 Leadership in Stressful Situations 09:49 Navigating Challenges as a Woman in Leadership 12:55 Finding Your Authentic Leadership Style 15:59 Cultural Sensitivity in Leadership 18:45 The Role of AI in Leadership 21:44 The Clicking Framework 24:54 Final Thoughts and Resources 27:55 Recap Resources Clicking Book by Daria Rudnik - https://a.co/d/0anex6ak Daria Rudnik on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariarudnik/ Daria Rudnik's Website - https://dariarudnik.com

    Leadership in the AI Age - E31
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About

The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.

Information

  • Creator
    Toussaint Williams, PhD
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    37
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Toussaint Williams, PhD
  • Show Website
    The Serving Second Podcast