What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem

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In a crazy world, how do we get better leaders?  This is the boardroom, unplugged. — Whether starting out, or a seasoned leader, you face a world we’ve never seen before - the future of work, politics, technology and society is harder to predict than ever. So how do we survive the uncertainty and thrive in complexity? The successful leaders of the future will need a different set of skills and come from a broader range of backgrounds. This is for you.  We’re by leaders, for leaders - human stories, messy realities, tips and tricks to use today… not corporate talking points or retrospective perfection. How it really felt, the stuff we don’t see, the advice and events that shaped you and the hard-won wisdom you’d pass on to future leaders.  — What We Don’t Know is a collaboration between: Matt Brittin CBE, Hayaatun Sillem CBE & Boxlight Creative Studio - the award winning production powerhouse behind UK’s biggest business shows.

  1. Jul 17

    From Boots the Chemist to Lewis Hamilton's Boardroom - Dr. Hayaatun Sillem & Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

    This week, a special crossover episode: Jimmy's Jobs of the Future meets What We Don't Know. Hayaatun Sillem spent eight years as CEO of the Royal Academy of Engineering - the first woman, and the first person in over two decades, to hold the role. Before that: 8 years of biochemistry, a walkout from the lab that ended her PhD overnight, and a stint advising Parliament on everything from forensic science to carbon capture. She also co-chaired Lewis Hamilton's commission on the representation of Black people in UK motorsport, and is now a founding trustee of his charity, Mission 44. In this conversation, Jimmy and Hayaatun cover the moment people mistook her for anyone but the CEO, the leadership skill she thinks is most underrated, the decision to leave a job she loved while she was still doing her best work, and why she thinks "more jazz than classical" is the only way to lead through uncertainty now. 🔗 Watch more from Jimmy's Jobs of the Future: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxoL7OXNn-JuGzZj7LQrtIA/ — What We Don't Know is a podcast about better leadership in a crazy, uncertain world, co-hosted by Hayaatun Sillem CBE and Matt Brittin CBE, produced in partnership with Boxlight Creative Studio. If you have any questions or want to come on the show, email us at: whatwedontknow@boxlight.io ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ ---- TIMESTAMPS Timestamps 00:00 — Intro 01:00 — First job: Boots the Chemist, £2.32 an hour 01:09 — Becoming head girl 01:12 — The lab walkout that ended her PhD 01:15 — Parliament and the Science & Technology Select Committee 01:22 — What the Royal Academy of Engineering actually does 01:26 — Working with Lewis Hamilton 01:32 — Becoming CEO — "So what is it you do here?" 01:35 — The most underrated leadership skill 01:39 — Splitting the leadership team 01:41 — Deciding when to leave 01:43 — "More jazz than classical" — how leadership has changed 01:44 — What's next: starting a new venture, "back yourself" 01:50 — Quick fire round 01:53 — Most embarrassing moment as a leader 01:55 — What she failed at 01:59 — Is AI overhyped? 02:01 — What separates great from exceptional 02:04 — Outro ---- Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  2. Jul 8

    From Leaving Dyson to The Washing Machine Project | Navjot Sawhney

    What Washing Machines Teach Us About Leadership | Navjot Sooni & The Washing Machine Project This time Hayaatun is joined by Navjot Sawhney, founder of The Washing Machine Project, about how engineering and leadership intersect through a mission to reduce the unpaid labor of hand-washing clothes. Nav describes being raised by his mother and sisters after his father died when he was eight, early leadership roles encouraged by his mother, and values of Sikh seva and Jugaad problem-solving. After working at Dyson, he quit to work with Engineers Without Borders in India, where he met Divya, whose lack of electricity and running water inspired him to create a manual washing machine. The patented flat-pack Divya machine saves 75% of time and 50% of water, has impacted over 100,000 lives, won Time Invention of the Year, and is scaling with partners like Whirlpool and JCDecaux, aiming to reach 1 million people by 2030. 00:00 Intro 00:27 Meet Nav 02:45 Founder Life Today 03:52 Curious Childhood Roots 05:24 Loss and Raised by Women 07:12 Responsibility as Leadership 10:13 Seva Scouts and Service 11:26 Engineering and Jugaad 13:08 Dyson Dream and Culture 16:23 Purpose Crisis and Leap 19:49 India Fieldwork Reality 23:07 Washing Machine Born 26:41 Scale of the Problem 28:12 Humanitarian Training Tests 29:42 Divya Machine Impact 30:37 Leading a Blended Movement 31:12 Building a Movement 33:26 Keeping Divya Central 35:08 Billboards and Partnerships 36:41 Frugal Innovation Matters 39:21 Identity and Team Space 40:52 Resilience and Chardikala 43:58 Learning to Scale Leadership 46:06 Aspirations and Legacy 48:01 Salad Spinner Origins 49:03 Iterating with User Feedback 51:20 Pitching and Funding Reality 54:01 People Who Inspire 55:18 Quick Fire Round 01:00:08 Reflections Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  3. Jul 1

    Why Coachability Beats Talent (And It Costs Your Promotions) | Nationwide former CEO Joe Garner

    Joe Garner (Ex-CEO Nationwide) on Leading Through Crisis, Values-Driven Culture & Sustainable Performance Hayaatun interviews Joe Garner, former CEO of Nationwide Building Society (and previously at HSBC and Openreach), now an advisor to CEOs across the private and public sectors and the royal household. Garner traces formative experiences from age 11, his early leadership through rowing, and career lessons from P&G’s principle-led culture, a brief command-and-control dotcom stint, and the fast-paced environment at Dixons/Currys. He describes empowerment at HSBC via a signed “blank” £3m marketing spend and explains how crises like the financial crisis and COVID drove introspection about ethics and decision-making. Joe argues business overuses incentives and fear versus motivating through purpose, potential and play, and shares removing variable incentives at Nationwide. He emphasizes self-discipline, stopping before “finishing,” staying balanced, coachability (growth mindset), culture, and transitioning from workmates to playmates via sport. TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Blank Check Leadership 00:42 Welcome to the Show 01:25 Meet Joe Garner 02:35 Life at Nationwide 04:21 Childhood Turning Point 07:22 Rowing Into Leadership 08:58 First Jobs and Values 10:39 Culture Clash Startup 12:22 Retail to Banking Leap 15:12 Crisis and Decision Ethics 16:53 The Private Lessons Book 18:42 Motivation Beyond Bonuses 24:19 Leading Under Pressure 27:56 Wolves and Wise Sayings 28:19 Wolf Proverbs Wisdom 29:16 Early Alarm Optimization 32:17 Discipline CEO Tradeoffs 35:02 Sport After CEO Life 38:07 Coachable Growth Mindset 40:41 CEO Coaching Framework 42:34 Stop Before Finish 44:15 Finance Culture Manosphere 46:57 Quick Fire Reflections 51:08 Episode Takeaways Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  4. Jun 24

    The Tech Industry Forgot That Women Exist | Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon

    Women in tech, AI bias, gender inequality, and the future of work Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon pulls no punches. Child prodigy, STEMettes founder, Countdown arithmetician, and government adviser on women in technology. She built STEMettes from £300 to £1.2 million. She watched the internet lose its mind over a Black woman doing maths on daytime TV. And she's spent 13 years trying to fix a tech industry that keeps building products that forget half the world exists. In this episode: why tolerating a brilliant jerk is a leadership failure. What leaders actually mean when they say they "can't find" female talent. Why crash test dummies based on women's bodies only arrived in 2025. And what a portfolio career looks like when you're genuinely living one. We also get into work, life, and legacy as a single equation - and why her definition of success has nothing to do with status. Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon - Head STEMette, DSIT Women in Tech Envoy, Chancellor of Glasgow Caledonian University, former Countdown arithmetician. Chapters: 00:00 Intro 00:30 Meet Anne-Marie Imafidon 02:35 Life as a Multi-Hyphenate 05:07 Balancing Time and Legacy 10:48 The Child Prodigy Myth 16:53 Opportunity Not Talent 20:45 Careers Advice and Pivots 24:55 School Trip Dog Drama 28:34 First Lessons in Leadership 32:56 Starting STEMettes Origins 35:46 Launching Stemettes 36:56 From Side Project to Scale 39:15 Tech Power and Bias 43:37 Leaders Fix the System 47:57 Inclusive Rooms That Worked 51:52 Countdown Behind the Scenes 56:44 Representation and Backlash 01:02:22 Future Skills for Work 01:07:27 What Comes Next 01:09:42 Quickfire and Wrap Up 01:13:27 Host Reflections and Farewell Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  5. Jun 17

    What David Miliband & The Nudge Unit Taught Me About Leadership | Ravi Gurumurthy, Nesta CEO

    Ravi Gurumurthy on Leading Nesta: Missions, Policy, Experimentation, and Intrinsic Motivation Welcome to What We Don't Know. The show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world. Today, Hayaatun is joined by Jimmy McLoughlin OBE, host of ‪@jimmysjobs‬, to chat with Ravi Gurumurthy, CEO of Nesta, about leading mission-driven innovation in an uncertain world. Ravi explains Nesta’s three “moonshot” missions - halving obesity, achieving net zero homes, and closing the school-readiness gap for children on free school meals, and shaping policy from practical learning. Ravi also reflects on his background in Burnley, early rebellious leadership, experiences of racism, and a rapid rise in the civil service, including work on Every Child Matters, the Children Act 2004, and the Climate Change Act. We also cover policymaking’s short-termism, better use of data and trials, how AI and synthetic data could help, learning from failure through “crash testing,” the importance of dosage and numbers, and why leaders should focus on intrinsic motivation over incentives. Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:52 Meet Ravi and Nesta 06:46 CEO Role and Missions 09:17 Family Roots and Oxford 12:21 Early Leadership and Identity 14:18 Fast Track in Government 16:17 Mentors and Learning Leadership 18:33 Policy Horizons and Data 26:29 AI and Synthetic Data 29:06 Experimentation and Failure 30:08 Donor Embraces Findings 30:39 Blunkett Sack Letter 32:10 Risk Over Safety 33:40 Ungovernable Leadership 34:42 Rituals For Failure 35:54 Crash Testing Ideas 37:01 CEO As Thought Leader 40:03 Measuring Social Impact 41:49 MacKay Numbers Not Adjectives 43:56 Preparing For Policy 46:30 Motivation Beyond Incentives 47:39 Insecurity And Identity 49:03 Future Career Paths 51:08 Quick Fire Round 53:59 Dogs And Social Capital 54:55 Change Is Harder Than Thought 55:54 Hosts Reflect And Wrap Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  6. Jun 10

    Why The Best Leaders Don't Need To Prove Themselves | Hetti Barkworth-Nanton

    Hetti Barkworth-Nanton on Humility, Purpose & Leading Through Trauma | What We Don’t Know (Eden Project) Recorded in the Eden Project Rainforest Dome at the Anthropy conference, Hayaatun speaks with Hetti Barkworth-Nanton, CEO of Ploughshare and chair of Refuge, about leading change across defense innovation and domestic abuse services. Hetti explains how Ploughshare spins Ministry of Defence innovations into civil applications, sharing examples from water-protective coatings used in Samsung phones to laser-detection tech adapted from battlefield needs to air ambulances and sport. She traces formative influences - rural upbringing, her father’s death, early lessons on commitment, and being “spark spotted” into senior roles at British Airways, including being the “Project God.” Hetti describes the murder of her friend Jo Simpson, resulting trauma therapy, later breast cancer, and how these experiences drove her campaigning, founding the Joanna Simpson Foundation, and her leadership at Refuge amid controversy and difficult board decisions. Key lessons: systems thinking, curiosity, resilience, boundaries, and humility. Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:45 Welcome To Eden Project 02:35 Two Leadership Roles 04:33 Rural Roots And Loss 08:01 Finding Self Belief 09:56 Strawberry Field Commitment 11:10 BA Breakthrough Roles 16:17 Project God And Servant Leadership 22:29 Why Domestic Abuse Matters 27:19 Trauma Therapy And Authenticity 29:49 Trauma and Cancer Reset 33:24 Purpose Over Corporate Life 35:06 Finding Ploughshare Mission 37:55 Defense Tech Impact Shift 40:56 UK Innovation System Fixes 43:11 Sentinel Photonics Story 45:59 Leading Two Careers Openly 48:16 Refuge Board Tough Calls 51:14 Resilience and Burnout Signs 53:55 Quickfire Leadership Lessons 57:16 Host Wrap and Takeaways Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Have thoughts or questions? Email us at whatwedontknow@boxlight.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  7. Jun 4

    Andy Haldane: The Jobs Crisis & How to Rebuild UK Skills | What We Don't Know

    Andy Haldane: Crisis, Opportunity & Rebuilding UK Skills | What We Don’t Know Welcome to What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem. This is the show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world. Across the series, episodes are joined a range of other leading figures, bringing different perspectives to each conversation. Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ ----------- In this episode, Matt Brittin and Hayaatun Sillem sit down with Andy Haldane to discuss his leadership roles as Chancellor of the University of Sheffield and President of the British Chambers of Commerce, motivated by working at the intersection of public sector, business, civil society and academia. Andy describes how repeated shocks from the global financial crisis through Brexit, COVID, the cost-of-living shock and geopolitical uncertainty, that have “scarred” institutions and fueled caution that weakens growth, echoing Keynes’s paradox of thrift. Reflecting on decades at the Bank of England, Haldane frames crises as moments when the Overton window opens for lasting reform, shaped by early experience of the 1992 ERM exit and teenage exposure to 1980s recession. He argues robust solutions to complex problems are often simple, emphasizes active listening as a core leadership skill, and highlights influences from small-business owners. He calls the UK’s central challenge a major reimagining of schools and skills to tackle economic inactivity, guarantee pathways to apprenticeships or degrees, and share leadership across sectors. 00:00 Meet Andy Haldane 00:29 Cross Sector Leadership 02:25 Scarred By Crises 04:55 Crisis As Opportunity 08:44 Early Leadership Spark 12:28 Climbing Big Mountains 14:55 Introvert Strengths 20:09 Metaphors And Listening 27:52 Governors And Advice 31:41 Carney and Brexit 34:03 Career Growth Beyond Banking 35:57 Outrider Thinking and Cross Discipline 38:20 Pro Bono Economics and Leaving 39:50 Sustainable Work and Creativity 44:14 Skills Gap and Opportunity 47:12 Reimagining Schools and Training 50:49 Leadership as Team Sport 52:41 Speed Round and Wrap Up Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  8. May 30

    What Negotiating With Putin & Gaddafi Taught Me About Leadership | Lord John Browne

    Lord John Browne on Engineering Thinking, Leading BP, Climate Risk, Negotiating Putin & Coming Out in Business | What We Don’t Know Welcome to What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem.  Matt Brittin is the former President at Google EMEA. After 18 years at one of the world's biggest companies, he stepped down, took a gap year, and recently became the Director General of the BBC. Dr. Hayaatun Sillem spent a few years leading the Royal Academy of Engineering and was awarded the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering.  This is the show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world.  Across the series, episodes are joined a range of other leading figures, bringing different perspectives to each conversation. Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️ ⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io https://www.boxlight.io/ ------ In this episode of What We Don’t Know, Hayaatun and Matt sit down with Lord John Browne. He discusses how he describes himself as a businessman, author, and above all an engineer, explaining how engineering training shaped his systematic approach from writing to boardrooms and science.  He reflects on childhood habits of dismantling clocks, the importance of proper tools, and his early life at King’s School Ely and Cambridge, influenced by a soldier father and a Holocaust-survivor mother who stressed self-sufficiency and looking forward.  Browne recounts joining BP in 1966, learning about unions and refinery work, and formative engineering experience on Alaska’s North Slope, including early computer optimization work. He describes leadership lessons from Stanford Business School—purpose, inclusion, listening, and negotiation—and his path to becoming BP CEO in 1994, reorganizing BP around customer-oriented business units, and addressing climate risk through internal analysis, methane reduction, carbon pricing, and renewables. He shares negotiation insights from dealings with leaders including Putin, Gaddafi, and others, then explains writing The Glass Closet after being outed in 2007 and arguing for workplace environments where people can be themselves, with safety and pragmatism.  00:00 Intro 01:38 Taking Things Apart 02:50 Joining BP in 1966 03:15 School and Rowing Days 05:06 Parents and Upbringing 07:41 Lessons From His Mother 09:22 Early BP Apprenticeship 11:41 Alaska and First Big Break 15:10 Stanford and Learning Leadership 19:50 Becoming BP CEO 24:18 Rebuilding BP and Climate Wakeup 28:51 Oil And Climate Reality 29:44 Speaking Up On Climate 31:10 Negotiating With Putin 35:39 Hard Lessons In Dealmaking 37:19 Writing The Glass Closet 39:09 Being Outed As CEO 44:05 Inclusion With Pragmatism 45:48 Resilience And Reinvention 50:25 Optimism And Future Tech 52:44 Speed Round And Farewell Credits: Producer: Sunny Winter Producer: Thuy Dong Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In a crazy world, how do we get better leaders?  This is the boardroom, unplugged. — Whether starting out, or a seasoned leader, you face a world we’ve never seen before - the future of work, politics, technology and society is harder to predict than ever. So how do we survive the uncertainty and thrive in complexity? The successful leaders of the future will need a different set of skills and come from a broader range of backgrounds. This is for you.  We’re by leaders, for leaders - human stories, messy realities, tips and tricks to use today… not corporate talking points or retrospective perfection. How it really felt, the stuff we don’t see, the advice and events that shaped you and the hard-won wisdom you’d pass on to future leaders.  — What We Don’t Know is a collaboration between: Matt Brittin CBE, Hayaatun Sillem CBE & Boxlight Creative Studio - the award winning production powerhouse behind UK’s biggest business shows.

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