Leadership Economics

Aaron Phipps and Spencer Clouatre
  • 5.0 (8)
  • Management

Most leadership advice is a collection of motivational stories or checklists pulled from someone else's company. Leadership Economics starts from a different premise: that leadership is an economic problem at its core, a question of scarce resources, incomplete information, and choices made under uncertainty. Aaron Phipps, an economist at West Point, and Spencer Clouatre, a retired Army Colonel and former Special Operations aviator, work through new ideas about how people actually decide, lead, and create, and they sit down with leaders from across sectors to hear how those leaders think about the challenges in front of them. The goal is not hacks or formulas. It is a sharper way of seeing your own situation, so you can diagnose what is actually wrong rather than what is most visible.

Episodes

  1. Jul 28

    How Others Feel When You're in the Room

    Ben Summers, head of Vanguard UK and one of the original authors of the economic ideas behind this show, on shutting down a business without abandoning the people in it, what a booby-trapped weapons cache taught him about letting success validate your own decisions, and why leadership comes down to how others feel when you're in the room. Ben Summers is Head of Vanguard UK. He served nearly 13 years as an Army officer, deploying twice to Afghanistan with the 101st Airborne Division as an aviation officer, and finished his service as an assistant professor of economics at West Point, where he taught leadership, economics, and finance and led the Academy's Scholar Programme. While he was teaching there he was one of the people who first wrote down the simple but powerful economic ideas that became the Leadership Economics playbook, which makes him a plank holder of this show's framework rather than a guest being introduced to it. Spencer mentored him as a cadet. The conversation opens with his own definition of the job: leadership is how others feel when you're in the room. He describes threading the needle between challenge and support with the image of running a hill at West Point, where a leader can sprint ahead and shout, call the whole thing off, or sweat it out beside the team. From there, Ben walks through shutting down Vanguard's German business, where the sunk cost logic was clear as day and the human dimension was not, and where he concluded that the most caring thing available to him was helping the organization be honest. He admits he then held the people at arm's length until a leader on the ground told him, "Ben, that wasn't your best visit." He talks about designing off-ramps before you need them, staging capital on a new offer until it earned the next tranche, and firing bullets before cannonballs. The hardest part of the episode is a mission he planned in Afghanistan in 2012. A campaign against weapons caches along the Pakistan border worked so well, so fast, that the team kept extending it, until a cache was booby trapped and ten people were killed. His reading of it is unsparing: there was no room for healthy divergence, and the unit was using its success to validate its decision-making process. That leads into the case for diverging before you converge, and for leaders secure enough to absorb the friction that divergence creates. The last third is about trust. Ben separates trust from warmth, splits it into credibility and the humility to be convinced you are wrong, and tells the story of watching dashboards that were green on the surface and red underneath. His team now hunts for the brutal facts on purpose. Aaron argues that trust is finally about alignment, and Ben closes on the hedgehog: passion, unique talent, and what the organization actually needs, aligned so that the motivation is intrinsic rather than bolted on. Mentioned in this episode Jocko Willink, "Discipline will give you freedom" Annie Duke on quitting and off-ramps Jeff Bezos and the one-way door / two-way door framework Jim Collins, Good to Great; "fire bullets, then cannonballs" and the hedgehog concept Jack Bogle, founder of Vanguard Sean McMahon, co-author of the original economic ideas at West Point General David Petraeus Everett Spain, "leaders run towards the smoke" Josh Richardson, "great is just good over time" (Episode 3) Rob Shaw, "eat your frogs in the morning" (Episode 6) The 160th Night Stalkers Adam Smith and the brewer, the baker, and the butcher Maya Angelou on how you made people feel Featured guest: Ben Summers — Ben Summers is Head of Vanguard UK, where we serve millions of investors directly with our Personal Investor platform and indirectly through advisors and other intermediaries. Mr. Summers joined Vanguard in 2019 to lead the company's New Ways of Working initiative and most recently served as chief of staff to the former CEO, Tim Buckley. Prior to joining Vanguard, Mr. Summers served nearly 13 years as an officer in the US Army. His last role was an assistant professor of economics at the United States Military Academy at West Point, where he taught courses in leadership, economics, and finance and led the Academy's Scholar Programme. In 2019, he received the William F. Murdy Award for Teaching Excellence. Before teaching at West Point, Mr. Summers deployed twice to Afghanistan with the 101st Airborne Division and held a range of leadership roles as an aviation officer. From 2012 to 2013, he led a turnaround of an aviation maintenance company and was awarded the General Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award for his efforts. (Vanguard UK) Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  2. Jul 14

    The Only Deal Breaker Is Character

    Rob Shaw, founding President and CEO of Echelon Bank and a 27-year Tampa Bay banker, on the soft information behind every good loan, the culture of a brand-new bank, and why character is the only hard no. Rob Shaw has spent 27 years in Tampa Bay banking, from AmSouth's management training program through leadership roles at Northern Trust, Signature Bank, USAmeriBank, NorthStar Bank, and Flagship Community Bank. In April 2026 he opened Echelon Bank, the first new bank in Tampa Bay in five years, with a founding team of bankers he has known for decades and his West Point classmate Jonathan Field as board chair. The conversation starts in physics and works its way to banking as a way of getting at the truth about a borrower. Rob walks through the five C's of credit, why character is the only hard no, and the soft information that is hard to discern just from a FICO score. The few loans he regrets, he says, all trace back to ignoring his gut, or that "hard-to-define" information. He also explains why he tells his team they are in the manufacturing business, turning their neighbors' deposits into loans, and why he wants problems on the table early rather than handled quietly. Spencer extends the currency of commitment idea from earlier episodes, and Rob explains the echelon formation that gave the bank its name. He closes with the advice he wishes he had taken sooner, in his own words: it's later than you think. Mentioned in this episode Isaac Newton and predictive equations The three-body problem The Heisenberg uncertainty principle AmSouth Bank, now part of Regions Bank FICO and the Fair Isaac Corporation; TransUnion, Experian, and Equifax Elon Musk David Feaster of Signature Bank ("eat your frogs in the morning") Greg Olivier, Echelon Bank board member Jonathan Field, Echelon Bank board chair Major Steven Reich and the Night Stalkers; A Soldier's Story (Fox Sports) The Tour de France and the echelon formation Featured guest: Rob Shaw — Following an honorable discharge after serving as a Lieutenant in the U.S. Army Finance Corps, Mr. Shaw began his banking career in 1998 with AmSouth Bank as a Management Associate. After completing the bank's executive training program in Birmingham, AL, he relocated to Tampa and quickly advanced from credit analyst and underwriter into commercial relationship management. He later joined Northern Trust as a Commercial and Private Banking Officer before moving into the community banking sector as the Clearwater Market Executive for Signature Bank. Following the bank's sale, he joined USAmeriBank as Pinellas County Team Leader, where he spent six years helping build one of the region's top-performing banking organizations. In 2014, Mr. Shaw became the Pinellas County Market President for NorthStar Bank and was later promoted to Senior Lender and COO. After the bank's sale in 2017, he partnered with two veteran bankers to acquire Flagship Community Bank in 2019. From the capital raise and due diligence process through post-acquisition leadership, he played a key role in the bank's growth and success, serving as Senior Loan Officer and overseeing business development through 2024. Over the course of his career, Mr. Shaw has personally closed hundreds of loans totaling approximately $530 million and has led teams responsible for well over $1 billion in commercial real estate and C&I lending transactions. Mr. Shaw earned a degree in Physics Engineering from United States Military Academy at West Point, holds an MBA from University of Phoenix, and is a graduate of the Stonier Graduate School of Banking at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He is now the President and CEO of Echelon Bank in Clearwater, Florida. (Echelon Bank, Echelon Bank on LinkedIn) Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  3. Jun 30

    The Person You're Trying to Become

    West Point economist Dean Dudley on how the best leaders reduce ambiguity, shape who their people become, and turn conflict into a problem disciplined thinking can actually solve. Dr. Dean Dudley retires from West Point this month after 33 years teaching economics and game theory to more than 33,000 cadets. He returns to the show to trace one thread from identity to game theory to the beaches of Normandy: what a leader actually does when the models stop working. The conversation runs from George Akerlof's identity economics, the idea that leaders and institutions can move the "bliss point" people measure themselves against, through the currency of commitment, to a working definition of the job itself: good leaders reduce ambiguity. Dean closes with the two case studies he teaches, D-Day and Gettysburg, showing how the side with the better model, not the bigger army, wins. Both anchor his forthcoming book, Game Theory and the Art of War, out in August. Along the way: why your team plays rock-paper-scissors against you and already knows you play rock, why a marriage is a harder allocation problem than a trip to Walmart, and why the most useful thing a leader can do is listen down. Mentioned in this episode George Akerlof, Nobel laureate, the "lemons" market and identity economics Identity Economics by George Akerlof and Rachel Kranton (recommended on air) Adam Smith, the invisible hand Sigmund Freud, id, ego, and superego John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern, zero-sum game theory John Nash, the Nash equilibrium and non-zero-sum games Roger Myerson, Nobel laureate game theorist who reviewed Dean's book Bayesian and Bayesian-Nash equilibria Jordan Peterson, "chaos" Pema Chodron, "ungroundedness" The Night Stalkers (160th SOAR) creed D-Day: Field Marshal Erwin Rommel and Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt The Battle of Gettysburg Game Theory and the Art of War by Dean Dudley (West Point Press, out August 2026) Featured guest: Dean Dudley — Dr. Dean Dudley is an Associate Professor of Economics at the United States Military Academy at West Point. A recipient of the West Point Superintendent's Award for Excellence, he has spent over thirty years teaching game theory and strategic choice to future military leaders. His research translates complex mathematical models into practical tools for both battlefield tactics and corporate boardroom strategy. (Game Theory and the Art of War, pre-order (West Point Press, August 2026), West Point directory) Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  4. Jun 16

    Your Unit of Reward Will Change

    Aaron and Spencer explore Andrew "Drew" Barnes's path from the job site to the classroom within the Leadership Economics framework, from why his students are paid from the neck up to negotiation as a master skill and why your unit of reward shifts from dollars to minutes. Most construction management programs are built around contracts, scheduling, and cost control. Drew Barnes built his around negotiation, communication, and the soft skills that firms say they need most. Drew is an Assistant Professor of Construction Management at the University of North Florida. Before academia, he spent five years with Dan Ryan Builders, where he developed a complete curriculum for preparing new hires to operate and lead well. We follow Drew's path from the job site to the classroom and explore the ideas he teaches: why construction management is a management degree and his students are paid from the neck up, why Getting to Yes anchors his graduate labor course, how your unit of reward shifts from dollars to minutes, what the scroll is really costing his students, and why the leaders who perform best have mastered their inner experience. What we cover The lumber-gopher origin: from carrying boards for a framing crew at 16 to a Ph.D. in construction management Mentorship that moves you forward: Edwin, and "how long do I have with you?" The missing curriculum: why soft skills, not just technical skills, decide who leads What even counts as a soft skill, and the trouble with teaching it at scale Reputation, fair prices, and trade partners: trust as the real currency of a job site Negotiation as a master skill, and why Getting to Yes anchors his graduate course The unit of reward: how it shifts from dollars to minutes, and what that shift costs Social media and scarce minutes: the brushing-teeth math and what the scroll really costs Everything is created twice: the blueprint, and controlling your inner experience Mentioned Getting to Yes, Roger Fisher and William Ury Harvard Business Review on Negotiation The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey Flow, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Garth Brooks, "Unanswered Prayers" David Hume and Adam Smith (Spencer's founding-philosophers aside) Featured guest: Andrew "Drew" Barnes — Andrew Barnes is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Construction Management at the University of North Florida (UNF). After receiving his bachelor's degree in Construction Management from Brigham Young University in 2013, he spent five years working in Raleigh, North Carolina for the mid-Atlantic homebuilder, Dan Ryan Builders (now DRB Group) as a senior purchasing agent and later as the corporate instructional designer. In 2018, he left the workforce to attend graduate school at Virginia Tech where he received his Ph.D. in Environmental Design and Planning. Drew loves teaching young men and women how to build homes, bridges, buildings, hospitals, roads, and, most of all, themselves. His research focuses on construction management education, managerial workforce development, and residential construction with an emphasis on offsite delivery methods. (UNF Faculty Profile, LinkedIn) Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  5. Jun 2

    Great Is Good Over Time

    Aaron and Spencer explore LTC (R) Josh Richardson's experiences and leadership lessons within the Leadership Economics framework, from the pace of trust to knowing when to stay the course or pivot, and why great is just good over time. Episode three of Leadership Economics, and our first guest. Retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Josh Richardson is a West Point graduate, a Ranger, and a 75th Ranger Regiment veteran who now directs the General Wayne A. Downing Scholarship Program and helps build cultures of safety in American plants and factories with DEKRA. He joins Aaron and Spencer to put the playbook to work on a real career, from pickup basketball as a market to the pace of trust, the explore-versus-exploit problem of when to stay the course or pivot, and his closing philosophy that great is just good over time. What we cover Pickup basketball as a market: coordination, reading people, and being the role player who makes the team betterThe pace of trust: why trust between strangers cannot be rushed, and why it is built in drips and lost in bucketsTrust and lived experience: the Antonio story, and why "trust the system" is a harder hurdle for some than for othersWest Point as a pressure cooker: preparation as the muscle to keep going, and why time and experience make the leaderExplore versus exploit: when to stay the course and when to pivot, a problem with no clean mathematical answer, and the place of free willRules of the game: why leaders should expect people to test the rules, Douglas North, and the 1982 Ewing goaltending callTactical patience at scale: why large organizations struggle to mentor person to person, and the tension between moving fast and pacing yourselfA different lens on leadership: building a culture of safety so everyone goes home, and why great is good over timeMentioned Jonathan Haidt, The Coddling of the American MindDouglas North, on institutions and the rules of the gameKevin Plank (Under Armour), "trust is built in drips and lost in buckets"The 1982 NCAA championship, Patrick Ewing's goaltending and Michael Jordan's game-winnerThe General Wayne A. Downing Scholarship ProgramDEKRA Strategic ConsultingFeatured guest: Josh Richardson — Josh retired in 2023 after 23 years of Army service including assignments leading units in the 75th Ranger Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, and NATO Allied Rapid Reaction Corps based out of Innsworth, England. He currently divides his time between two ventures: he is a Principal Consultant with DEKRA Strategic Consulting where he develops leaders to drive success through a culture of safety excellence; he also serves as the Director (Operations) for the General Wayne A. Downing Scholarship Program where he deploys a non-profit investment to build leaders to serve at the highest level of U.S. national security and defense. (DEKRA Organizational Safety and Reliability, General Wayne A. Downing Scholarship Program, Madison Policy Forum, Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, CTC Sentinel)Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  6. May 19

    The 6 Principles of the Economic Leader

    Aaron and Spencer turn the AIME framework into a working playbook, walking through the six economic principles every leader actually uses: opportunity cost, marginal thinking, incentives, trade and trust, information, and command and control. Episode two of Leadership Economics. Aaron and Spencer build on the AIME framework from the pilot and lay out the six economic principles that turn it into a working playbook — the tools every leader actually reaches for. The episode walks through each principle with examples ranging from the sunk-cost trap of a deteriorating boat to a randomized Army recruitment experiment that saved tens of millions of dollars. What we cover A quick AIME recap (Allocation, Information, Motivation, Execution) and why the framework needs a playbook of working principles underneath Principle 1: trade-offs and opportunity cost — every choice closes other doors Principle 2: marginal analysis — sunk costs are sunk; the next dollar is the only one that matters Principle 3: incentives matter, and they go far beyond money — culture, identity, and meaning all signal what people pursue Principle 4: trade is a win-win, and it runs on trust — markets and relationships work the same way Principle 5: information clears the market — read what people are doing, build structures that surface honest signals, and design real experiments Principle 6: command and control — the centralized-vs-decentralized trade-off and the principal-agent problem in mission command Mentioned Ray Dalio, Principles — radical honesty as a cultural mechanism for surfacing bad news Black Hearts and the West Point MX400 leadership curriculum — mission command, principal-agent failure, decentralization Carl von Clausewitz — the fog of war as a metaphor for information under uncertainty Adam Smith — the invisible hand and coordination through self-interest Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  7. Apr 28

    How we got here and why leadership is an economics problem

    In the pilot, Aaron and Spencer argue that great leaders are quietly good economists, and introduce AIME (Allocation, Information, Motivation, Execution) as the four focal points of a leader's job. The pilot episode of Leadership Economics. Aaron and Spencer trace how the framework took shape. Spencer brings the operational side, a career flying assault helicopters and teaching at West Point. Aaron brings the academic side, an economics dissertation on incentives. Together they lay out the case for treating leadership as an economics problem and introduce the AIME framework (Allocation, Information, Motivation, Execution) as the four focal points of a leader's job. Every future episode will return to one or more of those pillars. What we cover Why the leadership shelf is full of books but short on a definitionWhy first principles thinking, the way Newton built physics, beats pattern-matching from observed greatsSpencer's path from enlisted combat engineer to special operations aviation to the West Point Economics DepartmentAaron's dissertation on teacher performance incentives, and the puzzle of why big financial incentives so rarely workThe Joint Allocation Meeting (JAM) in Afghanistan, a single decision that touched all four AIME functions at onceA first look at AIME: Allocation, Information, Motivation, ExecutionMentioned Adam Smith and David Hume, the intellectual lineage of treating human behavior with rigorThe Hero with a Thousand Faces (Joseph Campbell), Aaron's closing reference to the "coordinated soul"Subscribe to the newsletter — one short essay every other Tuesday: leadershipeconomics.com

  • 7 Episodes

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
8 Ratings

About

Most leadership advice is a collection of motivational stories or checklists pulled from someone else's company. Leadership Economics starts from a different premise: that leadership is an economic problem at its core, a question of scarce resources, incomplete information, and choices made under uncertainty. Aaron Phipps, an economist at West Point, and Spencer Clouatre, a retired Army Colonel and former Special Operations aviator, work through new ideas about how people actually decide, lead, and create, and they sit down with leaders from across sectors to hear how those leaders think about the challenges in front of them. The goal is not hacks or formulas. It is a sharper way of seeing your own situation, so you can diagnose what is actually wrong rather than what is most visible.

Information

  • Creator
    Aaron Phipps and Spencer Clouatre
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    7
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Leadership Economics LLC
  • Show Website
    Leadership Economics

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