Learning Changemakers podcast

Laura Overton

Working out the future of L&D together. Some of the most important moments in professional development don't come from training programmes or frameworks. They come from a conversation that stop us mid-thought and make us see something differently. That's what this podcast is for. Hosted by researcher and pattern-maker Laura Overton, Learning Changemakers is a space for working through the real challenges facing L&D professionals at every stage of their career—navigating disruption, AI, shifting business expectations, and a profession in the middle of redefining its own value. Each series takes a big question and explores it in extended conversation with people who've thought deeply about it. These aren't polished answers. They are the kind of conversation where something shifts mid-sentence, where we all learn something we didn't expect. Because here's the thing: the best insights come from asking better questions and exploring together. If you're ready to stop waiting for someone to tell you what the future of L&D looks like, start working it out with us. Let's learn together.

Season 1

  1. Episode 1

    What does it mean to lead in L&D?

    Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers open the Learning Changemakers series with a question they thought would be simple: what does it actually mean to lead in L&D? What they discover is that leadership in this profession isn't about a title or a team - it's about orientation. How you see yourself, how you show up, and whether you're willing to step forward even when nobody's asked you to. Along the way, they introduce the principles and mindset at the heart of their book The L&D Leader, and start to uncover why the biggest shifts in our profession may not come from new tools or models but from how we think about ourselves. Download the transcript Mentioned in this episode   The L&D Leader by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (Kogan Page)  - the book that sparked this series and the principles explored throughout The Learning Performance Benchmark — Laura's 15-year longitudinal study into what makes learning innovation deliver business impact James Swift, Leyton — his story of bringing a sales background into L&D is explored in The L&D Leader and in Michellle's interview with James for Learning Uncut A question to sit with What does leadership in L&D actually mean to you — not the title, but the practice? Where are you already leading, even if nobody calls it that? Digging deeper Ashoka's "Everyone a Changemaker" movement - the inspiration behind Learning Changemakers  Keep in touch Laura Overton -  LinkedIn | learningchangemakers.com Michelle Ockers -  LinkedIn

    What does it mean to lead in L&D?

  2. Episode 1

    Do abundant choices lead to L&D overwhelm?

    Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers return with a question that turns out to be anything but simple: if L&D professionals have more models, tools, and frameworks than ever before, why do so many still feel stuck? What they uncover is that the problem isn't a lack of knowledge - it's an excess of it. Drawing on twenty years of benchmark data and the principles at the heart of The L&D Leader, they introduce the TRI principle: Tuning in, Responding, Improving. Not as another model to master, but as a way of cutting through the noise and finding what actually works in your organisation. When Michelle shares a story about a maintenance planning team she worked with, they discover that the breakthroughs we've already had in our practice often make more sense in hindsight than they did in the moment. Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: learningchangemakers.com/  Resources The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book) learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader/  Research & Data The Learning Performance Benchmark - Laura's 20-year study into what drives business impact in L&D CIPD L&D Research - cipd.org LinkedIn Learning Workplace Learning Report - learning.linkedin.com/resources/workplace-learning-report Case Studies Multiplex — construction sector workplace behaviour strategy; an example of TRI principles in action (detailed in the book) learninguncut.global/podcast/139/ People to Follow Charles Jennings — 70-20-10 framework - charlesjennings.com Cathy Moore — action mapping & performance-focused design - blog.cathy-moore.com Don Taylor — L&D trends & the Global Learning & Development Sentiment Survey - donaldhtaylor.co.uk​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

    Do abundant choices lead to L&D overwhelm?

  3. Episode 3

    When should L&D hold on or move on?

    What do we hold on to from our past, and what do we need to let go of? In this episode, Laura and Michelle dig into our thinking habits - what makes them stick, and what it takes to build new ones. They use the lens of the TRI principles to look back at previous work, including a compliance programme that became a catalyst for genuine behaviour change. They discover that understanding why something worked is often more valuable than the thing itself. It's an episode about the quiet kind of professional courage and why reflection might be the most underrated practice in L&D. Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: https://www.learningchangemakers.com/ Resources ●      The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book) https://www.learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader/ ●      5 new thinking habits for a smarter, stronger L&D - https://www.learningchangemakers.com/research_whitepapers/5-new-thinking-habits-for-a-smarter-stronger-ld/ ●      The L&D maturity benchmark - https://www.learningchangemakers.com/articles/the-evolution-of-the-ld-maturity-benchmark/  Case studies ●      Multiplex featured in Michelle's Learning Uncut podcast https://learninguncut.global/podcast/139/  ●      National Australia Bank / Direct Bank Call Centre featured in Michelle's Learning Uncut podcast https://learninguncut.global/podcast/38/  Other books Both And Thinking - Wendy Smith and Marianne Lewis https://bothandthinking.net/

    When should L&D hold on or move on?

  4. Episode 4

    Is L&D becoming irrelevant?

    Is L&D becoming irrelevant? Laura and Michelle think it might be the wrong question entirely. What they uncover instead, is a more uncomfortable one: are we keeping ourselves stuck? Through the lens of the "conspiracy of convenience," they explore how the comfort zone traps both L&D and the business in a loop that feels safe but quietly erodes value. They look at what it takes to break out, with stories from practitioners who did it without a big budget, a senior title, or anyone's permission. It's an episode about identity as much as strategy, and about why the shift from course provider to learning changemaker starts from within. Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: learningchangemakers.com Resources The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book) learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader The learning value spectrum learningchangemakers.com/introducing-ld-value-spectrum Breaking the conspiracy of convenience linkedin.com/pulse/breaking-conspiracy-convenience-laura-overton-gu5me Joining Forces With Your Brain - Lauren Wardman learningpirate.com/joining-forces-with-your-brain Case Studies Leading learning transformation at NAB with Damien Woods - Learning Uncut Interview learninguncut.global/podcast/61 Rethinking Learning: Autonomy over Content at Leyton with James Swift - Learning Uncut interview learninguncut.global/podcast/170 Russell Woods exploring Skills Sprints at Aster Group linkedin.com/posts/russell-woods-7470b655_learninganddevelopment-skillssprints-learning-share-7289714921129279489-rcW4

    Is L&D becoming irrelevant?

  5. Episode 5

    My stakeholder wants a course – now what?

    Your stakeholder walks in and asks for a course. Say yes or say no? Laura and Michelle think that's the wrong choice to make. In this episode, they reframe the course request entirely – not as a problem to manage, but as a trigger for curiosity and a doorway into a different kind of conversation. Drawing on real stories, including a food safety programme that turned into a behaviour change campaign, and a costly mistake that came from moving too quickly from explorer to expert, they explore what it looks like to tune in before you respond. It's an episode about presence, professional identity, and why the question underneath the question is almost always more interesting than the one being asked.

    My stakeholder wants a course – now what?

  6. Episode 6

    How to plan when everything keeps changing?

    How do you plan when everything keeps changing? Laura and Michelle think the answer might lie somewhere unexpected: in the story of Polynesian navigators who crossed thousands of miles of open ocean without maps, instruments, or GPS. What they uncover is that the problem with most L&D plans isn't a lack of rigour, it's that they're built for stable ground. Drawing on the Polynesian concept of the sail plan and the TRI principles based on Laura's 15 years of research, they explore what it looks like to hold a clear vision while staying constantly tuned in to the signals shifting around you. Along the way, they explore how Kristina from DECIEM applies cultural anthropology to capturing those signals in a notebook, and how Hannah shows what it means to throw out a platform, not because the plan failed, but because the signals said something better was possible. It's an episode about the courage to navigate rather than just follow a route, and why the most important question in any plan might simply be: can you see your Tahiti? Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: learningchangemakers.com/  Resources: The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book) learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader/ The L&D Navigator – part 1 learningchangemakers.com/case_studies/the-ld-navigator-part-1/  The L&D Navigator – part 2 The practice of navigating the unknown learningchangemakers.com/case_studies/the-ld-navigator-part-2-the-practice-of-navigating-the-unknown/  The L&D Navigator – part 3 Raising islands together learningchangemakers.com/case_studies/the-ld-navigator-part-3-raising-islands-together/  If, like us, you are interested in the story of the Polynesian Voyaging Society and the human role in non-instrumental navigation - dig deeper here: ●       The Navigators: Pathfinders of the Pacific - including an interview with Mau Piailug youtu.be/uxgUjyqN7FU?si=Epihz0z_XLeCXCpc ●       The vision of the Polynesian Voyaging Society that inspired our navigation metaphor for L&D hokulea.com/about/ Case studies  Kristina Tsiriotakis - Making learning human at Deciem - Learning Uncut podcast ep 56 learninguncut.global/podcast/56/ Hannah Ryan - Crafting a learning culture at Versent Learning Uncut podcast ep 174  learninguncut.global/podcast/174/

    How to plan when everything keeps changing?

  7. Episode 7

    Is AI our next silver bullet?

    Is AI our next silver bullet? That's the question Laura and Michelle explore this week. Not just whether it will fix everything, but something closer to the opposite: are we firing it straight through the heart of the things we're trying to build? What they uncover is that the real risk isn't that AI will fail us, it's that we'll use it to do the same things faster without ever asking what we needed in the first place. Drawing on Laura's research into L&D silver bullets, a Sydney Trains case study, and Simon Brown's approach at Ernst and Young, they explore what it looks like to harness AI through the TRI principles rather than reach for it as a fix. They don't agree on everything, and that's rather the point. It's an episode about the difference between a tool and a strategy, and why staying with the uncomfortable question a little longer is more valuable than landing on the answer. Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: learningchangemakers.com Resources:  The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book)  https://www.learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader/ Steve Hearsum called "No Silver Bullet."  https://www.hearsum.com/no-silver-bullet Life cycle of a silver bullet https://whatsthepont.blog/2017/05/29/the-life-cycle-of-a-silver-bullet/  Learning Uncut episode 181 Beyond Role Play: Using AI to Build Real Skills – Ryan Byrne and Dr Nathan Moore https://learninguncut.global/podcast/181/ The L&D Podcast: Moving Beyond Hype: Leading AI Strategy and Skills-Based Growth with Simon Brown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPCaShLvIc0 Ericsson's Learning NEXT Community https://learninguncut.global/podcast/152/ Stella Collins Neuroscience for Learning and Development  https://amzn.eu/d/04pPo8d0   Stella Collins - The Learning Organization: Using Self-Directed Learning to Drive Workforce Engagement and Performance  https://amzn.eu/d/07UupSew Rubin Hassid - AI is a slot machine (mapping our engagement to Kübler-Ross's 5 stages) https://open.substack.com/pub/ruben/p/ai-is-a-slot-machine Note to reader: whilst many question the science behind Kübler-Ross's cycle, the cycle is used as an interesting metaphor for our relationship with AI.

  8. Episode 8

    Is L&D backing the wrong horse with skills?

    Is L&D backing the wrong horse with skills? Laura and Michelle nearly didn't write this chapter for The L&D Leader. Everyone was already talking about skills, and they weren't sure they wanted to add to the noise. What they discover is that the real question isn't whether to back skills, but whose horse it is in the first place. Drawing on two organisations that took completely different paths, Epam's thirty-year skills architecture and McKinsey's four-week email experiment, they explore what it looks like to build performance rather than just label it differently. Neither organisation built a course. It's an episode about the difference between talking a good skills game and knowing what's needed. And why picking the right skill deliberately, for a while, is more likely to deliver results than going broad. Explore the Learning Changemakers Website: learningchangemakers.com  Resources: The L&D Leader – Principles and practice for delivering business value by Laura Overton and Michelle Ockers (book) learningchangemakers.com/resources/the-ld-leader International Labor Organisation - Definition of Skills ilo.org/resource/glossary-skills-and-labour-migration TRI principles: closing the performance gap learningchangemakers.com/tri-principles-closing-the-performance-gap Learning Uncut podcast - Putting skills to work at Ericsson with Peter Sheppard  learninguncut.global/podcast/147 Learning Uncut podcast - McKinsey's Feedback Skills Surge with Lisa Christensen https://learninguncut.global/podcast/163/

    Is L&D backing the wrong horse with skills?

  9. Season 1 Trailer

    Learning Changemakers Podcast - Trailer

    Working out the future of L&D together.   Some of the most important moments in professional development don't come from training programmes or frameworks. They come from a conversation that stop us mid-thought and make us see something differently.   That's what this podcast is for.   Hosted by researcher and pattern-maker Laura Overton, Learning Changemakers is a space for working through the real challenges facing L&D professionals at every stage of their career—navigating disruption, AI, shifting business expectations, and a profession in the middle of redefining its own value.   Each series takes a big question and explores it in extended conversation with people who've thought deeply about it. These aren't polished answers. They are the kind of conversation where something shifts mid-sentence, where we all learn something we didn't expect. Because here's the thing: the best insights come from asking better questions and exploring together.   If you're ready to stop waiting for someone to tell you what the future of L&D looks like, start working it out with us. Let's learn together.

    Learning Changemakers Podcast - Trailer

Trailer

About

Working out the future of L&D together. Some of the most important moments in professional development don't come from training programmes or frameworks. They come from a conversation that stop us mid-thought and make us see something differently. That's what this podcast is for. Hosted by researcher and pattern-maker Laura Overton, Learning Changemakers is a space for working through the real challenges facing L&D professionals at every stage of their career—navigating disruption, AI, shifting business expectations, and a profession in the middle of redefining its own value. Each series takes a big question and explores it in extended conversation with people who've thought deeply about it. These aren't polished answers. They are the kind of conversation where something shifts mid-sentence, where we all learn something we didn't expect. Because here's the thing: the best insights come from asking better questions and exploring together. If you're ready to stop waiting for someone to tell you what the future of L&D looks like, start working it out with us. Let's learn together.

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