Legends in the Law

Randall Spencer
  • 5.0 (3)
  • Documentary

Legends in the Law is a podcast that explores the stories, minds, and moments that have shaped the legal world. Through interviews with legendary lawyers, legal scholars, and deep dives into landmark cases and events, Host Randy Spencer uncovers the lessons, impact, and legacy behind the law.

  1. 3d ago

    Steve McCaughey | 100+ Murder Cases, 25+ Death Penalty Cases

    More than 100 homicide cases. Over 25 capital murder cases. Fifty-two years defending the accused. Few criminal defense attorneys have experienced the American justice system quite like Steve McCaughey. In this episode of Legends in the Law, attorney and host Randy Spencer sits down with one of Utah's most experienced criminal defense trial lawyers to explore the murder trials, death penalty cases, courtroom victories, and difficult decisions that defined his remarkable career. Steve began practicing law in Utah in the 1970s after attending the University of Nebraska College of Law. He joined Salt Lake's Legal Defenders Association, where he gained extraordinary courtroom experience, including trying 18 jury cases in a single year. Soon after entering private practice, Steve took on his first capital murder case. The defendant was acquitted, beginning a career that would eventually include some of Utah's most notorious homicide prosecutions. Defending the accused Steve shares his experience representing defendants connected to the Ervil LeBaron family, including murder trials in Utah and California. He recounts the Troy Kell prison murder case, in which a killing captured on video led to an unusual trial held inside a Utah prison. Steve explains the challenges of presenting mitigation evidence and what jurors later revealed about their decision to impose the death penalty. He also discusses a homicide case involving the killing of a Utah law enforcement officer. After his client was acquitted of the homicide charge in state court, federal prosecutors brought a separate case that resulted in a conviction. The experience illustrates the complexity of reasonable doubt, jury deliberations, and criminal prosecutions involving overlapping state and federal authority. Perhaps the most difficult case Steve ever handled was the capital murder prosecution of Taberon Honie. Steve discusses the decision to waive a jury for the penalty phase, the challenges of defending someone accused of extraordinarily violent acts, and the appeals that followed. Honie was executed in 2024. What does winning really mean? Steve challenges conventional assumptions about criminal defense. An acquittal isn't the only meaningful victory. In a death penalty case, persuading prosecutors to accept life without parole can mean saving a client's life. He explains how attorneys prepare for both the guilt and penalty phases of capital trials, why he doesn't measure his career by a simple win-loss record, and why representing someone believed to be innocent can create even greater pressure than defending someone believed to be guilty. Randy and Steve also discuss whether capital punishment is worth its financial and emotional cost, the Tyler Robinson prosecution following the killing of Charlie Kirk, and the changing role of forensic evidence, DNA, video, and digital discovery in modern criminal trials. After 52 years in criminal defense, Steve McCaughey has retired from practice. But his experiences offer timeless lessons about reasonable doubt, constitutional protections, the right to counsel, and the responsibility of defending people accused of the most serious crimes. A remarkable conversation about murder trials, justice, the death penalty, and a lifetime devoted to criminal defense.

    Steve McCaughey | 100+ Murder Cases, 25+ Death Penalty Cases

  2. Oct 3

    Judge Ben Hadfield: Trial Lawyer, Judge & Peacemaker Across the World

    Judge Ben Hadfield has experienced the law from three very different perspectives: trial lawyer, district court judge, and mediator and international legal educator. In this episode of Legends in the Law, Randy Spencer sits down with Judge Hadfield for a wide-ranging conversation about landmark cases, courtroom life, BYU Law history, judicial decision-making, mediation, and the growing role of peacemaking around the world. Hadfield was part of one of the earliest classes at BYU’s J. Reuben Clark Law School and was among the first students to spend all three years in the new law school building. He recalls the school’s dedication, meeting U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger, and the profound influence of founding dean Rex Lee. One piece of advice from Lee stayed with him throughout his career: lawyers can plan where they think their lives are going, but they should remain wise enough to recognize unexpected opportunities when they appear. Hadfield’s first career was as a trial attorney in Box Elder County. While practicing family law, he challenged then-existing Utah law concerning retirement benefits in divorce. The case eventually reached the Utah Supreme Court, which adopted the basic pension-division formula Hadfield had advocated for his client—later commonly referenced in Utah practice as the Woodward formula. Hadfield also recounts a memorable civil trial involving a truck driver who struck a black steer on Interstate 84. After the state refused to settle, Hadfield uncovered evidence involving an inadequate interstate fence and ultimately obtained a $135,000 jury verdict. In 1993, newly elected Governor Mike Leavitt appointed Hadfield to Utah’s district court bench. He served nearly 22 years as a judge and shares both humorous and difficult courtroom memories—from defendants representing themselves to emotionally challenging cases involving children and polygamous communities. After retiring in 2014, Hadfield began mediating. That third career eventually took him far beyond Utah. Hadfield and his wife volunteered in Moldova and Ukraine, working with young lawyers and law students on advocacy, jury trials, mediation, and rule-of-law principles. He describes the close relationships they formed there and the sobering changes he has seen among Ukrainian law students during the war. His work later expanded to South Africa, where he trained High Court judges in mediation and helped develop additional training for traditional leaders. Today, Hadfield is helping create a multilingual mediation manual designed for traditional leaders in South Africa, with the hope that the project can eventually expand elsewhere in Africa. It is a conversation about advocacy, judging, mentorship, mediation, legal education, and the remarkable places a career can lead when you remain open to the opportunities life presents.

    Judge Ben Hadfield: Trial Lawyer, Judge & Peacemaker Across the World

  3. Sep 26

    Sandra Dredge: Becoming a Lawyer at 50, Mentoring Generations & Still Practicing at 85

    Sandra Dredge was told she was too old for law school. She graduated at 50. Thirty-five years later, at 85, she is still practicing law. In this deeply personal episode of Legends in the Law, attorney and host Randy Spencer sits down with Sandra Dredge—his longtime friend, mentor and the first attorney he ever worked with—to explore an extraordinary career built on perseverance, service and the belief that it is never too late to pursue a dream. Sandra had already built successful careers before becoming an attorney. She was the first female auditor in Utah’s Legislative Auditor General’s Office and later became a vice president at a bank. But she still dreamed of becoming a lawyer. When Sandra worried that she would be 50 years old by the time she finished law school, her husband gave her the advice that changed everything: “You will be 50 years old anyway.” One law school told Sandra she was too old. BYU Law School accepted her, and at age 50 she began the legal career she had dreamed about for years. Sandra and attorney Linda Anderson established their own practice, taking criminal defense, family law and workers’ compensation cases. They became the first women to hold a contract representing Utah prison inmates in parole revocation proceedings and ultimately handled approximately 1,500 hearings. Sandra later became a Special Master in high-conflict family cases, placing her on the front lines of extraordinarily difficult custody disputes. She shares the remarkable story of an emergency effort to remove 11 adopted children from a dangerous situation—a case in which she recalls doctors later saying that some of the children might have died within days without intervention. She also developed a mediation practice spanning roughly three decades and thousands of disputes. Sandra shares stories ranging from the heartbreaking to the hilarious—including the divorcing parents who settled issues involving their child in less than an hour but needed more than six hours to negotiate custody of their golden retriever. For Randy, however, Sandra’s most important legacy is mentorship. As a law student, Randy walked into Sandra and Linda’s office looking for an internship. The experience changed the direction of his career. Sandra would go on to mentor many other aspiring attorneys, whose influence now extends to still another generation of lawyers. At 85, Sandra is still working, still mediating and still living the dream she once worried she was too old to pursue. Her message is simple: You don’t have to be 21. Find the work that fits you. Make a plan. And pursue the dream one day at a time. A moving conversation about women in law, mentorship, second careers, mediation, perseverance and why it is never too late to become who you wanted to be.

    Sandra Dredge: Becoming a Lawyer at 50, Mentoring Generations & Still Practicing at 85

  4. Sep 22

    David Leavitt: The Cases, Controversies, and Crusade to Save the Criminal Justice System

    David Leavitt has spent more than three decades inside the criminal justice system—as a defense attorney, elected prosecutor, Utah County Attorney and international rule-of-law advocate. His conclusion after seeing the system from both sides is provocative: America has become dangerously dependent on plea bargains. In this episode of Legends in the Law, attorney and host Randy Spencer sits down with one of Utah’s most recognizable and controversial legal figures for a remarkably candid discussion about prosecutors, police, jury trials, the Tom Green prosecution, Ukraine, political controversy and Leavitt’s continuing crusade to change the criminal justice system. Leavitt entered BYU Law School expecting to join his family’s insurance business. A criminal defense course changed his life and sent him instead to rural Millard County, Utah, where he began defending criminal cases and challenging a local system accustomed to resolving cases through plea agreements. He later became Juab County Attorney and experienced the immense power of prosecution firsthand—including one case that forced him to confront the consequences of allowing personal anger to influence prosecutorial decisions. Then came Tom Green. Leavitt takes Randy inside the prosecution of one of America’s most notorious polygamists, including the encounter with one of Green’s wives that convinced him he could no longer simply walk away from the case. The experience gave Leavitt a principle that would define much of his later career: “Do your job—not do your job to keep your job.” After losing reelection by only 16 votes, Leavitt returned to criminal defense. Growing disillusionment with the justice system eventually took him and his family to Ukraine, where they arrived days before the 2004 Orange Revolution. Leavitt says the experience transformed his understanding of freedom. He eventually founded the Leavitt Institute for International Development and worked with Ukrainian law students on advocacy and rule-of-law principles. But Ukraine also caused him to look differently at America. Leavitt came to believe that plea bargaining had transferred extraordinary power from ordinary citizens and juries to prosecutors and other government institutions. Years later, he returned to public office as Utah County Attorney with an ambitious reform agenda. His efforts to change charging practices, reduce reliance on plea bargains, create alternatives for nonviolent offenders and impose greater checks on police power produced fierce controversy and opposition. Leavitt discusses those battles, the sensational allegations made against him, his eventual landslide election loss and the lesson he took from the experience: your reputation can be taken from you, but your understanding of who you are cannot. Today, Leavitt goes further still. He argues that the criminal justice system cannot be gradually fixed from within and that restoring meaningful power to juries may require lawyers and defendants willing to disrupt the system itself. It is a provocative, emotional and deeply personal conversation about the enormous power of prosecutors, the disappearance of jury trials, the price of challenging institutions and the question Leavitt now asks himself: “What’s my duty to freedom?”

    David Leavitt: The Cases, Controversies, and Crusade to Save the Criminal Justice System

  5. Sep 16

    Judge Paul Warner: U.S. Attorney, Federal Judge & 45 Years in the Law | Legends in the Law

    From Navy courtrooms to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, post-9/11 national security, civil rights prosecutions, and nearly 15 years on the federal bench, Judge Paul Warner’s 45-year legal career offers a remarkable look inside the American justice system. Attorney & Host Randy Spencer sits down with Judge Paul Warner, former United States Attorney for the District of Utah and former U.S. Magistrate Judge, for a wide-ranging conversation about public service, trial advocacy, justice, professionalism and a lifetime in the law. Warner begins with the unlikely story of how he became a member of the inaugural charter class of BYU’s J. Reuben Clark Law School. The school had no building, no alumni network and no established reputation, but Warner joined a remarkable first class that included his lifelong friend, the late federal judge Dee Benson. After graduation, Warner joined the Navy JAG Corps because he wanted trial experience. His first jury trial taught him a lesson that would follow him throughout his career: prosecutors can be tough, but they must always be fair. Warner also tells the unforgettable story of defending a sailor accused of setting a U.S. Navy warship on fire. The government had a detailed written confession—but Warner kept investigating. What he discovered ultimately helped get the charges dismissed and taught the young attorney just how profoundly a lawyer can affect another person’s life. His career later took him through the Utah Attorney General’s Office and into the U.S. Attorney’s Office, where he worked alongside Dee Benson before eventually becoming United States Attorney himself. Warner discusses serving in federal law enforcement after September 11, his work with national Department of Justice leadership, and the extraordinary security concerns surrounding the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics. He also recounts significant federal civil rights prosecutions involving racially motivated violence, including a KKK-marked pipe bomb and the cross burning at the home of a mixed-race family. After seven and a half years as U.S. Attorney, Warner moved from advocate to referee, serving nearly 15 years as a U.S. Magistrate Judge. Along the way, he shares lessons about courtroom advocacy, civility, professional responsibility, knowing when to stop arguing, and why—after 45 years in the profession—he still recommends a legal education. This is Judge Paul Warner’s story: prosecutor, defense attorney, U.S. Attorney, federal judge—and a lifetime devoted to public service and the law.

    Judge Paul Warner: U.S. Attorney, Federal Judge & 45 Years in the Law | Legends in the Law

  6. Sep 4

    Judge Graf's Ruling: Is the Death Penalty Justified in the Tyler Robinson Case? | Randy Spencer

    Did Judge Tony Graf just identify a potential weakness in the prosecution’s death penalty case against Tyler Robinson? In this Special Episode of Legends in the Law, Utah criminal defense attorney and host Randy Spencer examines Judge Graf’s ruling following the preliminary hearing and focuses on one statement he believes deserves considerably more attention. Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty in the killing of Charlie Kirk. Their capital homicide theory relies on an aggravating factor alleging that Tyler Robinson knowingly created a high probability of death to someone other than Charlie Kirk and himself when the fatal shot was fired. Judge Graf ruled that the prosecution had satisfied the probable-cause standard required at the preliminary hearing and bound the capital homicide charge over for trial. But the judge also described the defense’s contrary argument concerning the aggravating factor as “substantial.” Randy explains why those few words could matter as the case moves from the relatively low probable-cause threshold to the much higher burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. He then examines another question: Is the decision to pursue capital homicide and the death penalty in the Robinson case consistent with the way other Utah homicide cases have been prosecuted? Randy compares Robinson’s case with other Utah shootings involving multiple victims or people in close proximity to gunfire where capital homicide was not pursued. He also examines the Matt Hoover prosecution arising from the killing of Provo Police Officer Joseph Shinners, where an initial capital homicide charge was ultimately dropped and prosecutors obtained a life-without-parole sentence. State vs. Shihab Wesaga State vs. Abdihakim Mohamed State vs. Matt Frank Hoover These cases do not determine how Robinson’s case should be charged. But Randy argues that they provide important context for evaluating prosecutorial discretion and whether the death penalty is justified under these circumstances. Is Tyler Robinson being treated consistently with similarly situated homicide defendants? Can prosecutors prove the aggravating factor beyond a reasonable doubt? And could Judge Graf’s description of the defense argument as “substantial” become increasingly important as the case moves toward trial? Randy Spencer breaks down the issues and invites listeners to examine the evidence and reach their own conclusions. Tyler Robinson is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Judge Graf's Ruling: Is the Death Penalty Justified in the Tyler Robinson Case? | Randy Spencer

  7. Aug 29

    Judge Tony Schofield: 50 Years of Law, Justice & Lessons from the Bench

    Judge Anthony “Tony” Schofield has spent 50 years in the law—as a pioneering BYU Law student, commercial litigator, respected Utah district court judge, mediator, judicial investigator, and advocate for an independent and accountable judiciary. In this episode of Legends in the Law, host and attorney Randy Spencer sits down with Judge Schofield for a candid conversation about a remarkable legal career and the cases, people, and decisions that shaped it. Judge Schofield was a member of the inaugural class of the J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University, attending classes before the current law school building even existed. He recalls studying in an old Catholic school the students affectionately called “St. Reuben’s,” learning under professors determined to establish a first-class law school, and even taking a trusts class from then-BYU President Dallin H. Oaks. After clerking for federal Judge A. Sherman Christensen, Schofield began practicing law in Guam, where a young attorney suddenly found himself working on matters involving major international corporations and financial institutions. He eventually returned to Utah, developed a successful commercial litigation practice at Ray Quinney & Nebeker, and fulfilled a lifelong ambition when Governor Mike Leavitt appointed him to Utah’s Fourth District Court. Judge Schofield shares remarkable stories from his years on the bench—from an unforgettable courtroom on September 11, 2001, to a Utah Highway Patrol officer with an uncanny ability to uncover hidden drugs, to the case involving 88 pounds of marijuana that left a jury deliberating in a room filled with the unmistakable smell of the evidence. But some judicial decisions were anything but humorous. Schofield speaks candidly about the emotional burden of sentencing defendants, particularly in child sexual abuse cases where imprisonment could devastate innocent family members. He also discusses the one sentencing decision that still troubles him nearly two decades after leaving the bench: sentencing a 25-year-old murder defendant to life without parole after the young man committed the crime alongside his recently released father. The conversation also explores something every practicing attorney should hear: how judges evaluate lawyers and the importance of credibility in the courtroom. According to Schofield, once a lawyer earns a reputation for misrepresenting facts or legal authority, rebuilding judicial trust can be extraordinarily difficult. After leaving the bench, Judge Schofield continued working to strengthen Utah’s legal institutions. He served as a special master for the Utah Supreme Court in a judicial misconduct investigation, investigated allegations of ethical misconduct involving a Provo City Council member, and became an inaugural member—and later chairman—of the Utah Judicial Performance Evaluation Commission (JPEC). Judge Schofield explains why he strongly supports Utah’s system of judicial selection and retention, why judicial elections concern him, and why Utah voters should pay attention to judicial performance evaluations before casting their retention ballots. From the beginnings of BYU Law to difficult sentencing decisions, courtroom ethics, judicial independence, attorney credibility, and the search for truth, this episode offers a rare look at the legal system through the eyes of someone who has experienced it from nearly every angle. Topics include:BYU Law School history • J. Reuben Clark Law School • Utah judges • judicial ethics • criminal sentencing • commercial litigation • courtroom advocacy • attorney credibility • judicial selection • judicial retention elections • Utah JPEC • judicial misconduct • mediation • September 11 • Fourth District Court • Utah legal history Subscribe to Legends in the Law for conversations with legendary lawyers, judges, legal scholars, and the people behind the cases and events that shaped the law.

    Judge Tony Schofield: 50 Years of Law, Justice & Lessons from the Bench

  8. Aug 29

    Does Judge Graf Decide Alone in the Charlie Kirk Case? Randy Spencer Breaks Down How Judges Make High-Stakes Decisions.

    Does Judge Tony Graf consult with other judges when deciding motions in the Tyler Robinson case? After a viewer raised that question, attorney and host Randy Spencer explains how Utah trial judges typically evaluate major legal issues—including whether a criminal case should be bound over for trial. Drawing on his own experience clerking for Utah trial judge Lynn W. Davis, Randy describes the role of judicial law clerks, the difference between trial and appellate courts, and why the final decision rests with the presiding judge. He also considers a less visible side of the judiciary: the professional isolation judges can experience while maintaining both impartiality and the appearance of impartiality. This special short episode is part of the Legends in the Law series following the criminal proceedings against Tyler Robinson arising from the shooting of Charlie Kirk. This episode offers legal commentary and general information—not legal advice. Tyler Robinson is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law. Subscribe to Legends in the Law for continuing legal analysis of the case. Show Notes: A viewer asks whether Judge Tony Graf works with other judges when deciding motions in the Tyler Robinson case. Randy Spencer answers that the presiding trial judge most likely does not consult a panel of fellow judges—but that does not mean he works without assistance. Drawing on his experience as a judicial law clerk to Utah trial judge Lynn W. Davis, Randy explains: • How trial courts differ from appellate courts• Why the final ruling belongs to the presiding trial judge• How judicial law clerks research legal questions and prepare draft rulings• Why a judge may revise, reject, or supplement a clerk’s analysis• How Judge Graf is likely approaching the pending legal issues• Why maintaining judicial impartiality can create professional isolation• How appellate review and public scrutiny affect judicial decision-making The episode follows Randy’s earlier discussion of the prosecution’s and defense’s bind-over arguments, including whether the State met the probable-cause standard and presented sufficient evidence concerning the alleged aggravating factor necessary to pursue a capital-homicide prosecution. About the series: Legends in the Law is following significant developments in the criminal proceedings against Tyler Robinson arising from the shooting of Charlie Kirk. These special episodes explain the legal questions, courtroom procedure, and arguments presented by both sides. Legal note: This program provides legal commentary and general educational information. It does not constitute legal advice. Allegations discussed in the episode have not necessarily been proven at trial, and Tyler Robinson is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.

    Does Judge Graf Decide Alone in the Charlie Kirk Case? Randy Spencer Breaks Down How Judges Make High-Stakes Decisions.
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Ratings & Reviews

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About

Legends in the Law is a podcast that explores the stories, minds, and moments that have shaped the legal world. Through interviews with legendary lawyers, legal scholars, and deep dives into landmark cases and events, Host Randy Spencer uncovers the lessons, impact, and legacy behind the law.

Information

  • Creator
    Randall Spencer
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    15
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Randall Spencer
  • Show Website
    Legends in the Law