Zhane Yamin: My guest today isn’t a scientist, though I think you could call him an engineer of sorts. Chris Fussell is president of business operations at Lila Sciences and vice chairman of McChrystal Group. Before that, he spent 15 years as an officer on Navy SEAL teams. And suffice it to say, Chris has got some knowledge in trying to get large siloed organizations to move like fast connected networks. Luckily, or perhaps unluckily for us, the same thing could be said about science. That’s why I think it’s such an amazing opportunity to talk to him right now, because the question of whether America meets the AI for science moment might not be entirely a question of science. It might be a question of whether a sprawling enterprise, whether the agencies, labs, universities, and companies can act like they’re on the same team. And that’s the one problem Chris has a lot of experience solving. Chris, welcome to the show. Chris Fussell: Thanks, Zhane. Yeah, and I think the scientists that I work with at Lila would definitely agree that I’m not a scientist. But I appreciate it. Yeah. Zhane Yamin: No problem. So I guess I just wanted to start with an honest assessment because I think when we talk about scientific competitiveness, there are a lot of alarm bells that are rung, and they’re rung pretty frequently. And I don’t want to just ring them like everyone else. So I want to start off with one question: when you look at where the U.S. actually stands scientifically right now, how competitive are we? Chris Fussell: The entire field is at a transition point, right? So there’s a lot of unknowns in that question, right? Go back two years, where are we competitively? We’ve got, you know, but a 60-year advantage, post-World War II, right? But now as AI starts to intersect with science, which is a totally unique space inside of the AI zip code, you know, AI and science is a very specific neighborhood inside of that much broader world. Where are we competitively in that neighborhood? I feel very good about it. But it’s not one—it needs a special type of attention, both from the U.S. government and allies and from companies like Lila. And there are not a lot of companies in our space. I would say we are uniquely positioned globally. But where are we in that competition globally? I think we have an advantage and I think we are ahead of others, but I think it requires a certain level of attention and understanding from government authorities, private industry, et cetera. And if we don’t give it the proper attention, there’s a world where you get passed. I’m confident we won’t, and I’m confident we have the right pole position right now, but we can’t take our eye off of it. Zhane Yamin: So one thing I kind of want to track with that is, honestly, this idea of watching, and trying to know what we need to watch. Because I think when we’re talking about scientific competitiveness, there’s always a lot of metrics that are thrown around, like China’s taking us in this, but we’ve got this in the U.S. And so I want to get your thoughts on what sort of things we should be watching and metrics we should be taking account of when we’re talking about AI for science and AI competitiveness globally. Chris Fussell: Yeah, on the AI for science question, and again, caveating with your opening, I am not a scientist, but I spend my days with them. And so there’s, again, in this neighborhood inside of the AI discussion, once you’ve seen this, you can’t unsee it, which is: the winners of AI and science, I believe, will have to do what we are doing. And this gets to your point of measurability and how do we know how far along we are? Lila’s thesis and mission and what we are building is an AI model that’s able to connect with physical labs. We’re building many tens of thousands of square feet of labs that will be controlled by AI models, with autonomous systems, robotics, humans very much involved in the labs, which allows incredible throughput, right? And so I like to think of it as a time machine for science. We’ll be able to reach years, decades into the future and pull knowledge into today. So what will be measurable there, rather than just the speed of your model or a lot of stuff that the average person just can’t really get their heads around? We’re right on the cusp of being able to look at a lab and say—sort of like what happened in manufacturing, if you go back to, I don’t know, the post-industrial revolution all the way through the early 20th century—we changed the way we looked at output. Like, how much can this factory produce per square foot of X, and how much energy does it need? It wasn’t just a human question or a knowledge question or an artisan question. You could look at the size of a factory and say it’s going to be able to produce this much X. We’re going to be able to do that with science. Like, this lab, with this configuration and the power of this model, can produce this much new scientific knowledge. And we’ll eventually be able to measure that, I believe, down to sort of the square foot. And that’s where the measurement question, I think, becomes really interesting and different than it’s ever been in science. We’ve seen that evolution in other industries, but we’re on the brink of doing that in the scientific space. Zhane Yamin: So on that point, I want to backtrack into your background and the perspective it gives you. Because again, you’re saying you’re not a scientist, but I think that actually offers you a very unique perspective on this entire landscape. How does that inform your work with Lila Sciences and this idea of autonomous science and building out these labs of the future? What does that strategic perspective offer you in that sense? Chris Fussell: Yeah, just quickly on my background. My first career, for about 15 years from the late nineties until 2012, I guess, I was an officer in the SEAL teams. And so for your listeners, the U.S. special operations community is now, I don’t know, twice as big as it was 25 years ago, but say 70,000 people. Each branch has its own component of special operations. The SEAL teams sit inside the Navy. And there’s a long history to that that goes back to 1980 when those communities were really created. For the first 20 years or so of their history—and this is the force that I joined in the late ’90s—they were built for siloed excellence. The SEALs had to be really good at X. Army units had to be really good at Y, et cetera. And there wasn’t a world where we’d have to integrate together. Well, post-9/11, now 25 years ago, we were put into a little bit of a time machine ourselves, because we jumped onto a battlefield that was networked and digitally enabled, and our much less capable, much less well-funded adversaries were connected globally through a digital network, right? That’s obvious now, right? It’s at our fingertips every day. Twenty-five years ago that was new and interesting, and it broke the way that we had to operate. And we had to rebuild and say, okay, how do we create a truly networked set of units that weren’t built for that culturally, operationally—none of our systems integrated, from the human level to the technical level? But we have to be able to do that to defeat this adversary. And so we went through this whole rebuilding process, and then I spent years post-military thinking about that, writing about that. I teach on it, and then obviously built a consulting firm based on it with retired General Stan McChrystal, who was sort of the father of this inside of special operations. So that’s a quick background on what I think is hyper-applicable here, because if you go back just a few minutes, what we were talking about is building these highly integrated lab systems. AI doesn’t care if you’re a chemist or a life scientist, et cetera. Eventually it will just understand, like we see in large language models, except there are way more combinations in science. It’s just going to see atoms and molecules and the way that life works and the universe works. But you have to teach it through all those different verticals that we as humans have come to understand. And so the chemist needs to work with these labs and develop an understanding of the AI model of how chemistry works. Same with life sciences, same with material sciences. All the different expertise that goes into building these types of labs, from AI specialists to software engineers that can connect the AI model down into the physical labs, the labs that need to be built in a very special way that don’t exist yet, the robotics that have to go in and operate in a way that doesn’t yet exist—all of these are very cutting-edge, interdisciplinary requirements. You don’t have to squint too hard to see the parallels with bringing together a global task force of highly siloed, highly competitive, uniquely special people. Right? So all big complex problems come down to very strong-willed and thoughtful people living in their lane, and you have to connect them across if you want to truly function as a network. So there’s an evolution story there, and that’s how I ended up in this very fun, fortunate, interesting position with Lila. Zhane Yamin: So do you think, in terms of people currently working on meeting the moment in AI for science, that what you see is a lot of people trying to brute force it—like, we need more budget or we need more force, we just need to try really hard—instead of trying to rework these things? Or do you see that a balance is necessary, in terms of brute forcing it, or maybe the problem is more funding, and then maybe half of our attention span should go to rewiring, I guess? What is that balance that you see, and what do you think it should be? What’s the difference between those two, I guess? Chris Fussell: I mean, we’re a young company, so I’m