The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack
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Interviews and entertainment for crime fiction, suspense and thriller fans.

  1. -1 ДН.

    Philip Marlowe in ‘The Friend from Detroit’ – S. 11, Ep. 13

    This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features an entry from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, which you can get without the ads here or here. Other than the one in the Old Time Radio broadcast replay. This episode is called “The Friend from Detroit”. The Motor City. 🙂 PS: The Crime Cafe Nine Book Set is on-sale at the reduced price of $2.99 until the end of the year. Or get a free copy as a patron here.

  2. 23 НОЯБ.

    Interview with James Polkinghorn – S. 11, Ep. 12

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with semi-retired attorney and crime writer, James Polkinghorn. Check out our discussion of Liquid Shades of Blue. And a little about the practice of law. You can download a copy of the transcript here! Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is semi-retired litigator and trial. He was a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney, is a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney. One of those tenses. And while he was based in Miami and Fort Lauderdale for 39 years, he handled some very interesting, a variety of cases of highly complex matters sometimes. He is originally from Pittsburgh, which fascinates me because I lived in Monroeville for a while. You probably know where that is. Jim (01:31): Went to the Monroeville Mall. Debbi (01:32): Oh, yeah. I remember the Monroeville Mall. It was a big deal when I was there. It was new or something, but he moved to Florida when he was 14 with his family, of course, and he now lives in Key West and is working on a follow-up, as I recall, reading from another interview on your novel, Liquid Shades of Blue. Am I correct? Jim (01:56): That’s right, yep. Debbi (01:57): Excellent. Very good. It is my pleasure to introduce the author James Polkinghorn. Hi Jim. How are you doing? Jim (02:05): I’m doing great. How are you? Debbi? Debbi (02:07): Oh, I’m hanging in there. I’m busy. Busy, but I’m hanging in there and glad to hear you’re doing well. I like your shirt. It goes really well with, even though you’re not in Key West at the moment, you’ve brought a little of that with you. Jim (02:21): Yeah, believe it or not, this was work attire for me for probably the last 15 years of my career. I sort of stopped wearing suits in the office if I could avoid it. It worked out for me. Debbi (02:36): Excellent. That is an excellent choice there. Who needs suits? I’m always happy to meet another lawyer turned crime fiction writer. What was it that made you turn to crime fiction as a way of expressing your stories? Jim (02:54): Well, I’ll tell you, Debbi, for me, it all really goes back to college, when I sort of dabbled with the idea of becoming a writer. I took the usual classes. I was an English joint major. I also majored in political science. But what really happened was my family circumstances at the time were terrible, and I made a conscious decision that I didn’t want to be poor anymore. (03:32): And so for me, the quickest way to an actual paycheck that was substantial was by going to law school. And so I made that conscious decision to go to law school, and I started that career and God knows it all turned out just fine. I had a long and good career, made money, did all that, and throughout all of that, I was thinking to myself, I always had this idea for a novel in my head, and I never wrote it. And I went on 40 years and finally it was I was about to turn 60 and I was thinking about retiring. I’d had the idea of retiring by age 60, and I was thinking to myself, if you don’t write this novel, if you don’t do it, you’re never going to do it. If you don’t do it now, now’s the time. And so that’s what I did. So I retired and the first thing I did upon retiring was write this book. And it was fairly well received and I enjoyed the process, all of that. And so after it came out and I started writing another one, and so I’ve done that and that’ll be out next year. Debbi (05:01): Excellent. Jim (05:04): So anyway, that’s how it all started. Debbi (05:07): Wow, very interesting. You still are doing the legal work? Jim (05:13): Well, I have a relationship with my law firm. I don’t actively practice anymore, but believe it or not, this is a national law firm. We’ve got, actually, it’s an international law firm now. We’ve got 35 offices all over the place, and I am now the ethics partner for the whole firm. And so I handle any ethical issue, any lawyer anywhere has, they will call me and we’ll work it out one way or another, conflicts, issues that arise and other things. If they’re accused of unethical behavior in a given case, they’ll call me and we’ll figure out what to do. Debbi (05:57): This is fascinating. Jim (05:59): Yeah. Well, I mean, it is a function. Every law firm of our size has somebody like that. (06:04): So anyway, so that’s what I, since I retired, that’s the role I’ve taken on. And plus I also do some training. I do litigation training, trial trainings, things like that. Mostly in the Fort Lauderdale office, but also elsewhere. But the ethics thing, that’s really the primary relationship that I have with the firm now. Debbi (06:29): Well, that’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That might be a subject worth exploring, a whole nother podcast maybe because I feel like people don’t know enough about the law and the way lawyers work, Jim (06:45): And also the ethical challenges that lawyers face really almost every day when they’re dealing with clients, the pressure clients are putting on you. Particularly, I was a defense lawyer. The pressure you experience from clients asking you to do various things and the expectations that clients have for you, it can force you to make some tough decisions. And so I’m there to sort of guide lawyers when they’re faced with those sorts of conundrums. Debbi (07:16): Well, that’s a good position to be in. It’s good that somebody, they’re doing that. Tell us a little about Liquid Shades of Blue. Your ex-lawyer protagonist turned bar keep in Key West. So this book is clearly not about going to court and being Perry Mason. Jim (07:36): No, no. I mean, there’s a little bit of legal stuff in there. There’s a case that he has, but it’s really not about that. The book is really about Jack’s quest for redemption and his own desire to regain the self-respect that he lost when he made a fateful decision working for his father, who was a big time plaintiff’s lawyer in Miami. He made a decision after he was accused of wrongdoing. Basically, it was a scheme of double billing in a case that actually was perpetrated by his father. And the father made Jack take the fall for it, and rather than stand up for himself, Jack swallowed it. His father wrote him a big check. He was suspended from the practice of law for six months, and during that six months he left and he went to Miami and he bought this bar. And so then once his suspension was up, he thought about going back to Miami but didn’t, stayed in Key West, ran the bar, and then things happen. And in this case, the big thing that happens is his mother dies of an apparent suicide and his father calls him and basically orders him back to Miami to sort things out. And that’s where it really takes off. Debbi (09:16): Yeah. Now, your protagonist also has kind of a drinking problem, right? Jim (09:24): Well, he did. His mother, I don’t know if these things are inherited or not, maybe they are, but his mother had an issue with alcohol and drugs going back to her childhood, and he worries that that’s him. But really, he was one of these guys that, because he was an athlete also, he ran track in college and was also a good football player in high school and all that. He always stayed in a certain shape. And so that always acted as a governor on his worst instincts. And so he always kept his drinking under control, but when some of these bad things happened, he would find himself drinking a little more than he should. And that’s sort of where he was on that fateful morning when his father called him and told him his mother was dead. Debbi (10:20): Yeah. Yeah. I noticed in your excerpt that you mentioned him waking up kind of groggy. Some woman is next to him. Jim (10:31): Right. Exactly. Exactly. Debbi (10:33): Discombobulated to say the least. Jim (10:34): Right. It was a shocking morning for sure. Debbi (10:38): I was wondering if that was him as him or kind of a product of where he is, kind of the Key West lifestyle. Jim (10:51): Well, I think, I don’t say this explicitly in the book, but I believe that that’s true. And I mean, having lived in Key West for a long time, I know how that goes. And people do go there with the idea of, I can keep a handle on this. And they just get caught up in the lifestyle and it churns some people out, so he could have fallen into that trap. But the events of this book actually save him from that. And that’s sort of the redemption he was looking for. And he ultimately, I think, finds it. Debbi (11:30): Just out of curiosity, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book. What era, when is this taking place? Is it contemporary? Jim (11:38): It’s fairly current. It would’ve been maybe seven years ago, something like that is what the current time would’ve been. Maybe a little newer than that. Debbi (11:48): Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering because a lot of what goes on in Florida is affected by so many things through the decades. I wasn’t quite sure. Jim (11:59): Yeah. You would say that this was just before COVID is really what this was, because COVID isn’t mentioned. Debbi (12:08): Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Before all that became a concern. Let’s see. How much do you weave in things about the law and how far in the background do you go with that, or how much do you bring them out? Jim (12:25): Well, the legal part of it is not particularly important except to explain the way Jack thinks about things. As you well know, one thing a legal education does is it teaches you how to think analytically. That’s really like the cornerstone of a legal education is that ability and the development of it. So he has that, and also his father does. There is a pretty good, I think, description of the father’s legal ability in the book. And we all know lawyers like him who are essentially amoral, who can take any position, argue it effectively, and persuade juries. And

  3. 9 НОЯБ.

    Interview with Victoria Selman – S. 11, Ep. 11

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with award-winning crime writer Victoria Selman. And, yes, we do have a brief discussion of Doctor Who! 🙂 And Guy Fawkes! You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today is the Sunday Times and Amazon number one bestselling author of five thrillers, including her popular Ziba MacKenzie series. Her novel Truly Darkly Deeply was shortlisted for the Fingerprint Thriller of the Year Award and longlisted for the Theakston’s Crime Novel of the Year Award, and was a Richard and Judy Book Club Pick. It has also been optioned by See Saw Films. In addition, she’s been shortlisted for two CWA Dagger Awards, has written for the Independent, and hosts a popular podcast called On the Sofa with Victoria on Crime Time FM. It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Victoria Sellman. (01:50): Hi Victoria. How are you doing? Victoria (01:51): I’m good. It’s my great pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:55): I am very pleased to have you on. I was going to say you’re in London and what’s the vibe like in London these days? Victoria (02:06): Well, the vibe in London today is very noisy. I dunno if you can hear the children outside my window, but it’s Halloween, so we may be interrupted by some doorbell ringing and some dog barking as the kids come. Debbi (02:18): Oh, that’s right. It’s tonight where you are. Victoria (02:18): We’re busy on the streets tonight. Debbi (02:22): Good heavens. Oh my goodness. Perhaps goblins will come visit us. I don’t know. In any case, have you always wanted to write thrillers? Victoria (02:33): I’ve always wanted to write, so when I was from a very young age, I’m sure the same with you, I was always an avid reader growing up, and I think when you love to read, at some point you’re going to want to write as well. You want to have a go, and it was a dream. From the age of seven, I wrote my first inverted commas novel on two sides of A4 paper. It was a very great achievement, which my parents went and lost. Otherwise, I’m sure it would’ve been a fabulous bestseller, but it was fun. That was on my bedroom floor one summer I wrote that. No, I’ve always wanted to write, but as is so often, I think as a writer, it was a long time coming, so life got in the way. I left university, I got a job, I got married, I had children. And it wasn’t until I was in my gosh, I’m trying to think, my late thirties, I guess, that I started properly going for it and I haven’t looked back. I’ve loved every minute, even the downs as well as the ups because of course publishing is a journey of peaks and troughs, and I think the biggest takeout is you just have to keep riding those waves and believing in yourself and keeping going. But it’s a rollercoaster and it’s a fun ride and I’ve loved it. Debbi (03:54): It truly is. Yeah, it is a great deal of fun when you can get things to work out and get the story to make sense finally. Victoria (04:03): Well, that’s right. I think that’s part of it. It’s not just that we want to tell a story, but as a writer, the challenge of telling the story of getting it right, of getting the character’s voice spot on and getting the character in with that first thing that they’re going to say on the page, you just have to see who they are, how to create suspense. I love sleight of hands, so my novels, I love to keep people guessing and hopefully guessing wrong if I’m doing my job right, but also to play fair. So I dunno about you, but I think there is nothing worse than reading a novel and it’s all about the big twist at the end and you get to the twist and you’re like, okay, so I didn’t see that coming. But also it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. I think the twist should absolutely, when you get to it, it should be “Oh!” not “uhh?”, but when it’s done well, everything just falls into place and you feel satisfied. And one’s job, I think as a writer is certainly a writer of thrillers, is to do that. Debbi (05:02): Oh yes. Victoria (05:03): And that’s a challenge, and it takes a while, obviously, to get the books right. But as we say, that’s part of the fun. The puzzle isn’t just the puzzle we give to the reader, but the puzzle we give to ourselves about how do we tell the story in the best possible way. Debbi (05:16): I agree. Yeah, definitely. It’s really funny when you’re writing these things, you almost become like the protagonist in the sense of what do I do next? Victoria (05:28): Yeah, well, it’s got to feel real and you can’t just have the plot leading the character, the character, it has to make sense for the character to do whatever they’re doing. Again, there’s nothing worse than a character walking into a haunted house that they would obviously never think of going in. It just doesn’t make it. But no, they’ve got to do it. That’s where the author wants ’em to go, so they find the dead body and the skeletons hanging from the ceiling. Debbi (05:51): Of course. Yeah. Victoria (05:53): Sorry, I’ve got haunted houses on my brain. Like I said, it’s Halloween tonight. Debbi (05:56): I can’t imagine why, given the time of year. So, tell us about Ziba MacKenzie and what made you decide to start writing a series? Victoria (06:07): So Ziba MacKenzie, that was my very first protagonist and I was feeling my way into crime fiction. And back then I was enjoying novels, Patterson and Lee Child and all those really fun, big characters and big stories. And I was also watching a show, which I dunno if you like, I’m sure many of your viewers like, cause it was huge, was of course Criminal Minds. So Ziba was an ex-special forces criminal profiler, and this was at a time when nobody was, I think now lots of people are writing about profilers, but back then they really weren’t. And I wanted to write somebody a little bit different, but I wanted to tap into my fascination with psychology and what makes us do the things we do and have a character that could understand us perhaps better than we understand ourselves and really solve a mystery through her understanding of humanity, but also facing demons of her own. So Ziba, she’s super smart and she’s kick ass obviously, but she’s also, she’s lost her husband, she’s a widow, she’s lost her husband in tragic circumstances. And just to complicate things a little bit further, she’s also falling in love with his best friend. (07:18): We have a tortured protagonist who we admire, but perhaps also on some level relate to. And we have mysteries that are rooted in true crimes. So that’s one of my things I really enjoy is true crime. I read history at university, so the idea of tapping into something a little bit real, I really enjoy doing. And that’s actually been something for all of my novels that I’ve done in one way or another so far. It’s not a retelling, it’s just a launchpad. The series was very successful, so Blood for Blood, which was the first book in the series was shortlisted for the Debut Dagger Award. So over here in England, the Daggers, I think they’re probably a bit equivalent to the Edgars from what I understand, if that makes sense. Debbi (08:04): It does. Victoria (08:05): And being shortlisted for that was a brilliant springboard for me. I got a deal from that and the book did great. It was actually number one bestseller on Amazon for about, I think it was about five weeks. So it as a first book that was Debbi (08:21): That’s fantastic. Victoria (08:22): It was great. But of course it also sets your expectations at a little bit high as well. Debbi (08:26): Oh, I know the feeling. Victoria (08:26): [Cross-talk] downside. And then I went on to write two more books. So it’s a fairly self-contained trilogy. (08:35): And after the third novel, I wanted to do something new because writing a series is great fun. You get to know your character so well and you get to have a lot of fun with them. But after a certain point, it’s like wearing a comfortable pair of slippers when as a writer you always want to be wearing your dancing shoes, you want to be going out and trying new things and pushing yourself to grow. Otherwise how did we ever do that? Exactly. And so then I moved on to a standalone, which was my next journey. Debbi (09:06): Cool. So let’s see. What are you working on now then? Specifically. Victoria (09:13): What am I working on? So what I did after the Ziba MacKenzie series, so I wrote two standalones. The last one was Truly Darkly Deeply, which you mentioned in your introduction. And that was, I mentioned to you that I really loved true crime. So this one was not based on, but inspired by the relationship Ted Bundy had with his girlfriend’s daughter, which I was fascinated by, I dunno about you, but I watched the movie with Zach Efron that has that crazy long title, I’ll not remember properly, something like crazy, awful, terrible, vile, whatever it was. Remember what I mean? And I watched this movie. (09:46): And it was a brilliant movie, but fascinating. It was all about the girlfriend and a lot of these stories that we see are about the serial killer’s wife, the serial killer’s girlfriend. It’s that aspect. And there was one scene in the movie where this little girl, the daughter was sitting up at the counter and I thought, that’s what was interesting me. What was it like for her? How would it have been to had somebody you effectively think of as a father because this girl did, and he turns out to be a serial killer? How does it affect you? How does it inform your view of humanity? And because this is fiction in my novel, the story opens with the serial killer who I’ve named Matty, is in prison, so we know he’s been arrested, but he’s always protested his innocence. And so this girl in my story doesn

  4. 26 ОКТ.

    Interview with Patrick H. Moore – S. 11, Ep. 10

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with former investigator and crime writer Patrick H. Moore. Check out our discussion of Patrick’s work in sentencing mitigation work. It’s a lesser-known unique type of investigative work. You can download a copy of the transcript here.   Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a retired Los Angeles based investigator and sentencing mitigation specialist. Since 2003, he worked on more than 500 drug trafficking, sex crime, violent crime, and white collar fraud cases. My, what a mix. He also studied English literature and creative writing at San Francisco State University. As a student, he published several short stories and novel excerpts. In 2014, he published his first thriller novel Cicero’s Dead. Today he has a three-book series, the first of which is a political thriller called 27 Days, which was along with Cicero’s Dead, a finalist in various awards contests. As I said, it is the first of the three books in the Nick Crane thriller series. My guest was also co-founder of a blog called All Things Crime that apparently reached its zenith of popularity somewhere in the mid-2010s, which was what, 20 or 30 years ago? No, no, it was only last decade. It only feels like 50 years. Alrighty. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Patrick H. Moore. Hi. So how are you doing? Patrick (02:26): Oh, I’m doing great, Debbi. Hi. Thank you very much for having me on. Debbi (02:30): It’s my pleasure. Believe me. And I was very intrigued to see that you used to be an investigator. Was that like a private investigator? Patrick (02:39): Well, I worked for a private investigator. The person I worked for, he held the private investigator’s license, so I did investigations for him and also I did what’s called sentencing mitigation work. We worked for lawyers primarily in the greater Los Angeles area, but also all around the country. And we would do a lot of their legwork. We would do a lot of their interviewing, and so we do their legwork, their interviewing, and also we would do a lot of the ghostwriting for the lawyers. So my specialty was actually writing federal sentencing memorandums, which are highly precise documents written in a very formal style that follow certain ground rules. (03:36): And so I wrote hundreds of these federal sentencing memorandums, and I also edited hundreds for my boss, but I also did investigations. But in doing sentencing mitigation work, it really is, it is like an investigation of a slightly different sort, that is you’re not going out and knocking on doors or searching for things on the internet in one of the databases, but rather you’re actually talking to your clients or our clients, my boss’s company, John Brown and Associates. And so I would interview the clients at great length. I would interview their family members. I would collect character reference letters. So I was basically investigating the client his past, what he had or had not done, whether or not he had come from a disadvantaged background, all of those things. And so it was a kind of investigative work, but a kind of investigative work that very few people know about because the vast majority of the population has no idea that there are sentencing mitigation specialists in existence. And there actually are very few. I think Los Angeles really created this phenomenon, and I don’t think it’s really caught on in other parts of the country, which is why lawyers from other parts of the country would use my boss’s firm too. Debbi (05:07): That’s very interesting. Patrick (05:09): Because sharp lawyers quickly realized that to get those sentences a fair deal, they needed to have lots of ammunition, they needed to have lots of arrows in their quiver, and a full complete workup on the client they discovered was hugely helpful. We also did state cases, but those were fairly simple compared to the federal cases. My specialty was federal cases, drugs and fraud cases, and of course you’d get the sex cases too, which were unavoidable. And them too. And do your best on those too. Debbi (05:46): You’re trying to tell a story about these people that paints a full picture, I take it. Patrick (05:52): Exactly. Debbi (05:54): How could a person get to the point where they’re at now? Yeah, it makes a lot of difference. Huge difference. Patrick (06:03): One of the curious things I learned is that most people who get indicted for fraud really are the vast majority are perfectly fine people who just got greedy and made a mistake, and then oftentimes they get in and they can’t get out and it snowballs. But that was a curious thing I learned, whereas most drug traffickers, well, especially transporters, mules as they’re called, they’re like poor, hardworking people usually of Latino background desperately trying to support their families and possibly the relatives back in Mexico for low wages. So they would typically make the mistake of, hey, you just drive this from here to there and we’ll pay you such and such, and that’s how they would tend to get involved. I never represented the large traffickers, which is a whole different world. Debbi (07:00): Different subset. What led you from being a creative writer into that particular work? I’m just curious about that. Patrick (07:12): Right. Well, there’s a backstory there. See, I’m older. I come out of the Sixties. I was purely counterculture till I was about 30 years old, and then when I was 30, I went to college and I discovered it was that I needed it. It was extremely helpful and completely fascinating. So I had a good part-time job. I was married, I had a couple kids, and those were in the days when good part-time jobs existed in manufacturing. And so I was able to help support my little family and able to go to college and all of that and able to do it all at the same time. And it was just an immensely beneficial period in my life from age, say 30 to age 39 as I was a part-time student and I worked part-time. So it took me nine years to get my AA, my BA, and my MA, all in English Lit. Debbi (08:20): Yeah, I know what it’s like to be a part-time student. I did that myself. I was in college for a bit longer than most, ended up going to law school. How much your background works its way into your books, do you think? Patrick (08:36): Well, I would say a tremendous amount. Both my years in counterculture, in the counterculture when I was never living on the streets, but I was kind of a street person for a long time, and so I met a lot of interesting characters. So then we fast forward 20 years to where I’m working for John Brown in Los Angeles here, and I’m also meeting a whole bunch of interesting characters with one significant difference. The interesting characters in Southern California tended to have access to things that people in Northern California did not. And that’s why a lot of, I am not going to say they’re innocent, but in the drug world, a lot of people got, well say the mules driving drugs across the border up from state to state. That kind of opportunity didn’t exist in Northern California, so I never met anyone like that. So Southern California was really, so you put the two periods together, 10 years in Southern California and my first five to 10 years here in, I mean 10 years in Northern California and my first five to 10 years here in Southern California, and you put two together and I had a great deal of information, ammunition to use in my books. Which is why my crime thrillers are considered to be highly realistic by most readers. Debbi (10:18): I was going to say you sound very much like Dashiell Hammett in the sense of you were an investigator and you kind of translated that into crime fiction. Patrick (10:28): Right, and that’s a really good point. And of course those early people are some of the original crime writers that I’ve read in the last three years since I’ve started getting published. My reading has branched out greatly. I’ve been, well for the second year in a row now, I’m a judge for Killer Nashville, and I’ve been a judge for the Shamus Award contest one year. I think I’m going to be a permanent judge for Killer Nashville probably as they like to bring us back. Debbi (10:58): Cool. Patrick (11:01): And so by that, my horizons have widened for sure. Debbi (11:07): Yeah, I know the feeling. I feel like by reviewing books and talking to people, I’ve learned so much. Let’s see. You have three books in the series. Is this it for the series or do you plan more? Patrick (11:24): This is definitely it for the time being. The reason is that the third book of the trilogy Giant Steps, the story reaches a resting point, not necessarily a final resting point, but a true resting point. And so the story is basically told for the time being. My protagonist Nick Crane, my seasoned LA private investigator. I may bring him back eventually, but I haven’t decided yet. But in the meantime, I’ve gone in another direction with my writing. Debbi (12:02): What direction are you going in with your writing then? Patrick (12:05): Well, the direction I’m going in now is to try to reach a more mainstream audience, including the large women’s market, which at least now I think they formerly were more interested in violent thrillers. But I think that’s really changed over the last five years. And so I’m kind of writing kind of, what did they say? Kind of perhaps high concept, soft-boiled crime fiction primarily geared for the women’s market. (12:43): In order to do this, I’ve had to learn to create female protagonists and to learn how to do them convincingly. I’ve had a huge amount of help from my little sister Ellen. Sometimes when you start a book, you write sections, which you’re just kind of exploring the characters, and she had me redo things over and over again. She would say, Patrick, this s

  5. 12 ОКТ.

    Interview with Amanda DuBois – S. 11, Ep. 9

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with legal thriller author Amanda DuBois. Among other things, we talk about how telling true stories persuasively can make you a better fiction writer. Learn more about her novel, Unshackled, here. For a PDF copy of the interview, just click here. It’s there, somewhere. 🙂 Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest this week is the founder and managing partner of DuBois Levias Law Group, one of Washington State’s longest standing woman-owned law firms before becoming a family law attorney, a field I learned to avoid like the plague, frankly, she was a labor and delivery nurse. She uses her medical and legal knowledge to address inequities in the legal system as an author of the Camille Delaney Mystery series, an award-winning book series. Her third and latest book is called Unshackled. She also founded an organization that helps formerly incarcerated people to reenter society. What a laudable goal. And I just finished reading the script for The Shawshank Redemption. What interesting timing. Anyway, I’m pleased to have with me today the author Amanda DuBois. Hi, Amanda. How are you doing? Amanda (01:57): I’m doing awesome. I want a copy of that script. How interesting that would be. Debbi (02:01): Oh, I can probably send you the link to where it was found. Or even a copy. Amanda (02:05): Oh, fantastic. I didn’t know you were reading that. Debbi (02:09): Oh, it, it’s kind of cool to read it, and I didn’t have a chance to actually watch the movie. We were doing a discussion on it, and I hadn’t had a chance to see it in a long time, but it seemed like there were scenes in there that might not have made it into the movie, which was interesting. Amanda (02:24): Yeah, that’s exactly right. Debbi (02:26): It was very interesting to read, but I’m always pleased to have a lawyer on who has written crime fiction. I’m just pleased to see lawyers writing fiction, frankly, in general. And you have done some remarkable work starting your own law firm. How long have you had your own law firm? Amanda (02:49): So I’m just this year celebrating 30 years. Debbi (02:52): 30 years. Amanda (02:53): And so that makes us one of Seattle’s longest-standing women owned law firms. Debbi (02:58): That’s really awesome. Amanda (02:59): We’ve been celebrating all year. We have a little pontoon boat outside our office. Our office is on a lake, and we just did this champagne thing. You cork the champagne off and yeah, we’ve been having a good time celebrating. Debbi (03:11): That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. I think I can hazard a guess as to what led you from delivering babies to law, perhaps the absolutely broken healthcare system in this country that had something to do with it? Amanda (03:26): Well, a little bit. Yeah. Mostly I just wanted to do something different and was, here’s a really funny story. How I ended up in law is I wanted to get out of nursing and I thought I’d go to medical school. So I went, took all the super hard science classes and then I decided I didn’t really like … I took like two years of biochemistry and all that stuff. And then I thought, well, maybe I’ll go get an MBA. And so I went to buy the MBA study guide book at the bookstore, and right next to that was the law school book. And I thought, well, I’ll buy that. I’d never thought about law school. So I went home and I was doing the MBA study book, and it was all this math and calculus and it was really hard, and I thought, this is awful. So I got a beer and sat down and did the law school study book, and I’m like, oh, this is much easier. (04:09): So my husband came home and I said, I’m going to go to law school. And he goes, what? I said, well, I’m not good at this MBA stuff. It’s too much math, and I’m really good at this law school, so they must have a better idea about what would make a good lawyer. So I was totally the accidental lawyer. I had no interest really in being a lawyer at all, but I thought I had the aptitude. So anyway, I ended up in law school and ended up as a medical malpractice lawyer for the first seven years of my practice. So once I got into law school, I thought, okay, I got to work on this healthcare system. So you’re right. Debbi (04:40): Oh, wow. Well, that is really interesting. There are so many similarities between you and me in terms of background. I had this hard science background for a while and then the math killed me and I was like, oh, no, no, I can’t do this. I was really interested in physics for some reason, and then it was just like– Amanda (04:58): Me, too! Debbi (04:58): Wow, how interesting. Amanda (05:02): In my other life I want to be like an astrophysicist or somebody kind of like math genius or something, but it’s not happening in this lifetime. So here we are. Debbi (05:10): Here we are, yeah. Amanda (05:10): Here are writing books. Debbi (05:12): I’m a would be cosmologist. You’re a would be astrophysicist. I want to know about the origins of the universe. How did this all start anyway? Amanda (05:21): Right. Debbi (05:25): So how would you describe your books? Are they kind of like crime fiction? Where are they in the spectrum of who-dunnit to stop the bad guy before it happens? Amanda (05:35): So they’re legal thrillers. Debbi (05:37): Legal thrillers. Amanda (05:38): And so the protagonist is a lawyer named Camille Delaney. And the reason I started, I wrote the first book was because I was a trial lawyer and I was super frustrated with how we value human lives in the legal system. If you’re a young bank president and you die, you’re worth millions of dollars. But if you’re a 65-year-old retired person and you died because of malpractice, you’re worth way less than that. And it bothered me because when I was a nurse, whoever comes into the hospital, they’re important, you don’t treat bank presidents different than you treat old people or vice versa. And every human life has the same amount of value in the medical system. So I end up in the legal system where people’s value is basically based on what they can earn. And it really bothered me, and I was medical malpractice lawyer for many years and I wanted to write an article or inform people about this injustice, and I thought, nobody’s going to read a dumb article about the value of human life in the legal system. (06:37): Who’s going to read that? And I thought, well, maybe I could write a fiction book and it’s going to be about an old guy who dies, and it’s going to be about the protagonist who is struggling with trying to communicate to the insurance company and the defendants that the widow deserves more money than just the amount of money you’d give to some old guy who died. So the whole purpose of the book was to sort of expose this really horrible way that the legal system has with dealing with human lives. And then the next book was about a baby who died because they do the same thing to babies. They say, oh, you could always have another one. And it’s like, what are you talking about? So the second book is about a baby who died, and it’s a mystery, so you’re trying to figure out, it’s a fun mystery, but at the end of it, I’m hoping that the readers are like, wow, I never really thought about that before. So I use the legal thriller sort of genre to talk about inequities in the legal system. And then the third book is about women in prison who have been separated from their children and the importance of reuniting women with their children when they’re in prison and after they get out of prison. And so the whole and that book when you get finished with that it’s like, oh my God, I had no idea the struggles and the impact on our society and our communities when we incarcerate moms. (08:00): Their kids become at risk, and then those kids are more likely to get into trouble in the legal system in the future. And so this book, while it’s a story about a kidnapped baby that the protagonist and her private detective have to find the baby all along the way, you’re learning things about the criminal legal system and how messed up it is. So. Debbi (08:20): Yeah, for sure. Amanda (08:21): That’s the high level what these books are about. Debbi (08:25): Did you find that changing from writing legal briefs and documents to writing fiction required any kind of adjustment in the way you wrote or thought about writing? Amanda (08:37): You know, not really, because I never really thought about this before, but if you’re writing a good trial brief or a good motion, you have to convince the reader that it’s true. And you have to write a, so I am a family law lawyer, so when I’m talking about, when I’m writing a motion or doing a trial, it’s about a family and a child and money and finance and all these things that are kind of a little bit exciting. I mean, that sound kind of smutty and dramatic and emotional for most lawyers, but it’s really pretty fun and you are writing this family’s story to present it to a judge. And so it’s different in terms of, obviously you have a lot longer in a book, but it’s very similar in the way of, I mean, having been a lawyer for so long, I think it makes me kind of a better writer because I’ve had to tell true people’s stories to judges both in writing and verbally for the past 30 years. So it’s a good question, but it’s really, I’m sure if I was a lawyer for banks or Microsoft or something, I wouldn’t have the same thing to say, but when I’m telling family stories, yeah, absolutely. Debbi (09:43): That’s true. That’s very true. I was going to say, my tendency was to overexplain things at first. It’s like, no, no, you don’t have to explain that the sky is blue because of, I didn’t do it that badly, but it was just. Amanda (09:58): Yeah, it’s a lot. Debbi (09:59): Yeah. Gosh,

  6. 5 ОКТ.

    Interview with Desmond P. Ryan – S. 11, Ep. 8

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with crime fiction author Desmond P. Ryan. Check out our discussion about Toronto and the experiences in law enforcement that have informed his fiction. You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi Mack (00:07): Hi everyone. My guest today is a former police detective with the Toronto Police who draws on his experiences to write two very distinctive series, the Mike O’Shea series of gritty police stories, reminiscent of Joseph Wambaugh, so definitely gritty stuff. And also a series called A Pint of Trouble, which is closer in tone, apparently to the Thursday Murder Club books by Richard Osman. So I find that just a fascinating dichotomy of series there. Way not to get pigeonholed. It’s my pleasure to have with me today, the author Desmond P. Ryan. Hi Des, how are you doing today? Desmond Ryan (00:54): I’m doing great, Debbi. How about yourself? Debbi Mack (00:57): Quite well, thank you. I just got through wrapping on my first film. I directed a film a week ago. It was a short film. It’s a short film. Yes. Desmond Ryan (01:12): I’ll bet that’s a lot of work. Debbi Mack (01:14): Oh boy. It was a lot of work and it was a very, very interesting and eye opening, just kind of an experience I’ll never forget. Desmond Ryan (01:24): What’s the film about? Debbi Mack (01:25): It’s about a priest who has a dark, somewhat dangerous past who has to face the consequences of what he’s done. Desmond Ryan (01:36): Okay. Debbi Mack (01:37): I’ll leave it at that. I don’t want to spoil anything. Desmond Ryan (01:40): And where will we be seeing this film? Debbi Mack (01:42): I hope to have it somewhere online eventually. Somehow I think that the company that I was associated with, the nonprofit called Charm City Filmmakers helped make this happen. They basically teach new directors how to be directors, what’s involved and who does what on the set, that kind of thing, and what your role is. And you’d be surprised how much work the first AD or assistant director does. It’s just this amazing process that, it requires you to be really paying attention for one thing. Desmond Ryan (02:32): So it’s not all magic? Debbi Mack (02:35): It’s magic, but it’s magic that looks invisible. I mean, the best magic does not reveal its tricks. Right? Desmond Ryan (02:44): That’s true. Debbi Mack (02:45): But it’s funny. People go behind the scenes all the time and see the tricks, so it’s interesting, but it’s a magic that we willingly buy into. Something like that. Desmond Ryan (02:56): Yes, you’re going to have to let us know when it’s going to be [inaudible] I’m already excited. Debbi Mack (03:03): Thank you. I feel like I’ve kind of hijacked this interview with you here. Just mentioning that film. My God, the film was really just a great experience and I’ll probably talk about it more on a YouTube channel, so I’m on YouTube as Debbi Mack if you want to find it there. Desmond Ryan (03:22): We will. Debbi Mack (03:23): Okay, awesome. Let’s see. You have the Mike O’Shea Series and the Pint of Trouble series. It’s interesting. They’re so very different. I love that you’re writing though focuses on the diversity of Toronto’s neighborhoods. I’m just fascinated with neighborhoods and how cities are made up of neighborhoods often. Tell us about the neighborhoods in Toronto and in particular, Cabbagetown, which I never knew about until I found out you were there, looked it up and has a very interesting entry on Wikipedia. Desmond Ryan (04:03): Yeah. Well, Debbi I’m born and raised in Toronto, and so I take a lot of it for granted, and it would take me hours and hours and hours to explain the diversity of Toronto. I believe it is the most diverse city in the world, not just because Des says so, but I think in whoever measures all of that stuff out it is. And it’s made up of little neighborhoods, and a lot of the neighborhoods are based on culture and ethnicity, and it’s a really, really, I think, fascinating city. You have things like Chinatown, Little Italy, Little Portugal, Little India. You’ve got Somali neighborhoods, you’ve got all kinds of neighborhoods. And the neighborhood I live in is called Cabbagetown, and it is an old, old neighborhood, when we are talking Toronto years. Many of the houses here were built in the late 1800s, and they were originally built as fairly large Victorian homes. (05:14): And as the neighborhood turned over and the economy went belly up and all that sort of thing, the houses got into disrepair. A lot of them were turned into rooming houses or broken up into flats and things like that. And one of the reasons that they call this neighborhood Cabbagetown is that the people who lived here, because of the economic depression at the time, were growing cabbages in their front yard. And so that’s how it came to be called Cabbagetown. And for a long time, this neighborhood was very disenfranchised and they put a very, very large public housing complex in the area, which was called Regent Park, and they ripped down a pile of old houses that were used as rooming houses to facilitate this. And then rather than invigorate the neighborhood—again, the houses were rooming houses, things like that—it became a very tough neighborhood. (06:21): And at one time, I actually policed in this neighborhood, and that would’ve been in the early nineties. And I remember policing here and thinking, who the heck would want to live here? Now what ended up happening was this neighborhood is also very close to what we call the Gay Village, the Church and Wellesley area, which became heavily populated with gay men and lesbians, mostly gay men who then saw the economic opportunity in these old houses. And so they started buying these houses, refurbishing them, and through that action basically turned the neighborhood around. And so now these houses are worth millions of dollars. They’re gorgeous. I think it’s the largest historic neighborhood in Canada, which means that the exterior of the houses cannot be changed. So these are from the outside, they’re time-locked. So it makes for a very, very beautiful neighborhood. Debbi Mack (07:27): Very interesting. That’s fascinating. Yeah, it’s fascinating the way things change over time, isn’t it? Let’s see. What inspired you to create Detective Mike O’Shea as a character and give him so many problems? Desmond Ryan (07:48): Well, as you’d said, I spent almost 30 years in policing, and the first 15 years of my career were done in uniform in various capacities, including foot patrol and primary response and community officer and all that sort of thing. And then I became a uniform sergeant, and then I became a detective. And as my career was going on, more winding down, getting to the end, I realized that I had a lot of distinct knowledge that really had no relevance in the outside world. Not a lot of people want to know the stages of rigor mortis, not a lot of people want to know about gathering evidence, things like that. And so I thought, well, what can I do with this information? And I had done my undergrad degree at the University of Toronto in English literature and political science. It’s an obvious segue into policing. (08:53): But what ended up happening is, I thought, well, why don’t I just start writing this story? And so I created this character, and as any of your listeners know who are writers, oftentimes you have an outline of a character. And even if you really define the character, they kind of develop their own selves. And so as I was writing the story, also looking at the impact of what was happening to the characters, specifically Mike O’Shea, of course, he would develop these problems because otherwise, I mean, don’t know, not to give anything away, but in the very first book, there’s a major … in 10-33 Assist PC, there’s a very traumatic event that forms Mike’s the rest of his policing career. And for him to be able to walk away with that, just shrug it off, I think would’ve been a bit unreasonable. And then more and more things seem to happen, and he responds in the only way he knows, which unfortunately isn’t the healthiest way. And then it also gave me an opportunity to discuss mental health, mental health in frontline officers, in first responders. And it just sort of opened up a whole world. In a place I didn’t think the character was going to go. Debbi Mack (10:22): Yeah, they tell you where to go eventually. Desmond Ryan (10:27): Yes. Debbi Mack (10:29): They take on a life of their own. What do you think people get wrong and writers in particular get wrong about police? Desmond Ryan (10:44): I think it is that sense that they’re tremendously troubled individuals or that they’re perfect when in fact, we’re just regular people that do a unique job. Like being a surgeon is a unique job. Being a mortician is a unique job. There’s a very different skillset. I think oftentimes, having said that, writers can sometimes write their characters as a little bit one-dimensional in terms of, yes, policing is a very involved occupation, and when you’re in it, you are in it, but there’s other things happening in the individual officer’s lives that if the writer can do it and sort of put a little bit of that in, I think that’ll add a little more authenticity to the character. Debbi Mack (11:47): Yes, definitely. What prompted you to write a series versus standalones? I’ve noticed people tend to have a preference for one or the other. Desmond Ryan (11:58): I just thought that it’s one of those things like once the ball gets going, originally I actually set it up as a five, but then became a six book story arc because I wanted to tell this long story, but I also wanted to talk about individual homicide investigations, and I didn’t want to end up writing

  7. 28 СЕНТ.

    Interview with Christina Kovac – S. 11, Ep. 7

    My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with thriller author Christina Kovac. Get the bird’s eye lowdown scoop inside story about her latest novel, Watch Us Fall! For a copy of the transcript, click here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest this week worked in television news covering crime and politics at Fox Five’s 10 o’clock news in Washington DC. She went on to become a news producer and desk editor at the Washington Bureau of NBC News. She now writes psychological suspense thrillers set in DC. DC is one of my favorite places to talk about since I live near DC and worked in DC and well, I feel like a DC native almost. Her latest novel coming out in December is called Watch Us Fall. It’s my pleasure to have with me. Christina Kovac. Hi, Christina. How are you doing today? Christina (01:36): I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. Debbi (01:38): It’s my pleasure to have you on. Believe me, I’m always interested in talking to journalists and former journalists because you guys have such a difficult job. I mean, I know once upon the time I aspired to be a journalist, did freelance writing for a bit, but anyway, but I am intrigued by the description of your latest novel, which Alafair Burke described as, and I quote, “an insightful look at the complex dynamics of close female friendships and the lingering effects of trauma.” Wow. Tell us more about what inspired you to create the story. Christina (02:19): I started writing in the beginning, or I think it was in the beginning of the end of the pandemic, and a lot of people around me were coming out of the pandemic. It felt sort of traumatized. I think we all came out of our houses sort of stumbling. I don’t know how to act anymore. I don’t know how to with my friends anymore. I don’t know how to hug people anymore. And it really struck me that being alone, being away from each other felt like a traumatic experience. I wasn’t writing out of my own experience. But then I started thinking about what must that be like to have a kind of traumatic experience and then finally find a bunch of friends that you just want to hold onto and that you build this life around. And that was what these four female characters did. (03:30): They met in college. They’re Addie, Lucy, Penelope, and Estella, and they met at Georgetown and they became fast friends, and they were actually, when I was writing, I imagined that they started college during the pandemic like my daughter did, which was really a traumatic experience. They were stuck in their dorms. It was just a really horrible thing. They didn’t get to know each other, but what they did was they kind of hung out, the group in their little quad. They hung out very tightly together, and they became just kind of forever friends. And so I thought that was really interesting. I wasn’t writing out of my own traumatic experience, I will be honest. But at the time that I was writing, I was also very interested in the fact that misinformation had taken off. (04:25): A lot of people were listening to lies on the Internet about COVID and all the rest of things, and I wondered why they were so open to things that were obvious lies and misinformation. And I started to wonder if there was a connection between being alone in COVID and feeling kind of traumatized by that and believing things that were the exact opposite of what their doctors were telling them and what made absolutely no sense to any sensible human being. Basically, why you would believe a lie. And that was really the beginning of my thinking about these people. So it’s a bunch of disparate strands, strands, excuse me. It started in one place. It moved all over the place. That’s kind of how I write. I don’t know why. I wish I could just pick a lane and ride down the highway, but that’s just not really how I roll. Debbi (05:19): Yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that. It’s funny how when you’re writing, sometimes ideas come and stuff that you thought you were going to do change. Christina (05:30): But the beginning idea to take these four best friends in college and have them living a post-grad life in Georgetown, that was kind of always there. I was thinking a lot about how I miss my friends during the lockdown. I really miss the kind of hugging and the whispering, the drinking together and just handing a book off and saying, Hey, this is, and so I really had this feeling of just really intense loneliness that I wanted to write about four friends who would just do anything for each other and who would protect each other no matter what. And that was actually the seed of it all, and I think it stemmed from loneliness, from the pandemic. Debbi (06:26): Yeah, I can definitely believe that. It’s very interesting. Yeah. What sort of writing schedule do you keep? Christina (06:35): I write first thing in the morning. Debbi (06:37): First thing in the morning. Christina (06:38): I’ve trained myself. I used to be, when I worked in news, I worked nights. I did nightly news for, I worked in the Washington Bureau of NBC News and my shift was three o’clock in the afternoon, cover nightly news, and then do whatever The Today Show needed and then leave at 11. So that was kind of my thing, and I thought, I want my new life after I left TV to be very, very different from my writing life. So it’s like, okay, we’re just going to have to get used to being alone, not in a newsroom. We’re going to have to get used to sitting in your office in this mess of an office all by yourself. So I just set my alarm every day for six o’clock. I get up and I make coffee. I sit at my desk, my cat starts meowing. That is occasionally annoying, but I try and write as long as I can. Debbi (07:35): Morning writer. Yeah, I am with you there. I like writing in the morning. It’s just really weird. At one point, the afternoons were always better for me. Then suddenly it’s switched to morning. Like, it’s kind of like brushing your teeth. It’s kind of like that habit that you form and you just kind of keep at it because really you got to do it. You got to get those words out there. Christina (08:00): And also the thing that I really got used to that I love so much is I make this huge pot of coffee, and then I just sit there and I just slam coffee and write and next thing I know, I am so caffeinated. I’m like, okay, now I have to get up and get away from the desk and go for a walk and hopefully come back. Debbi (08:21): Oh, yeah, walking is important. I have learned that. Get up and walk away now. And then, what was it that made you choose to do standalone thrillers as opposed to say a series? Christina (08:35): My first book, The Cutaway, actually could have been a thriller, and I thought about it, I’m sorry, could have been a series. And I actually thought about it because I thought Virginia was the main character, and I thought she was a really good character and she could carry it. I thought she could carry probably a trilogy. A lot of things happened after the contract that just made that sort of insupportable. I thought, I actually probably need to do standalones. My editor for one, was really interested in doing a different kind of novel, so you kind of get stuck a little bit with that. I also was really obsessed with this idea of these four women living together and what their lives are like. And so I lost, I think the thing is you can only write what you’re really obsessed with, and I really became obsessed with this female friendship thing, the dangers of being a woman, the dangers of walking around in a female body. And that was very different than the kind of novel that I was writing in the cutaway. So I talked to my agent about it and I said, I have this really kind of feel for this different novel that I’d like to do. And he said, I just think it sounds great. Let’s do it. Debbi (10:04): Yeah. You really do have to feel, I guess, almost passionate, I guess the word is the only word I can think of about what it is you’re writing about. Christina (10:15): Because you’re getting up every day to write about it. I mean, it’s every day for a year. Debbi (10:20): It’s a commitment. It’s a commitment of time, commitment of effort. Were you still in journalism when you started writing fiction? Christina (10:30): Yeah. Debbi (10:34): That must have been tricky. Christina (10:35): Yeah. I’m trying to remember exactly when I left. My husband and I, we have two kids. And he’s also in journalism. He, he’s a broadcast engineer, and we were really struggling with the idea of how to work our schedules around our family. It was just really a problem. And I had always loved, I was an English major and I had a dual major. I was English and journalism, and I had always loved this idea of working in the literary world, writing fiction. I really loved the scope of a novel. One of the most frustrating things that I found in TV was, your story is basically 30 seconds or a minute, and you cannot get into the answers to questions that you need answered. You can barely get into who, what, don’t even think about why. And to me, that’s the most important thing there is why do people do this? What are the things in their world that are pressuring them? What makes a criminal? Are they born? What did they encounter in their world that made them this way? And journalism can’t answer any of that. Or at least not TV. (11:56): Long form journalism is different, of course, I’m not. But a novel is where you get into the heart of people and into the mind of people. So I wanted to do that. So I said to my husband, look, we’re really struggling with this family-work dynamic, balancing things. I mean, I think that we’re doing okay. What if I just left TV and wrote a novel? And he said, well, do whatever you want. And in the back of my mind, I thought, how hard can writing a novel be? Oh my God, it’s hil

  8. 31 АВГ.

    Philip Marlowe in ‘The Lonesome Reunion’ – S. 11, Ep. 6

    The Crime Cafe once again is pleased to bring another episode from the annals of Old Time Radio! With one of my favorite protagonists–Philip Marlowe! With Gerald Mohr in the title role! Get early access to ad-free episodes and bonuses, when you become a Patron!

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Interviews and entertainment for crime fiction, suspense and thriller fans.

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    Debbi Mack
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    2015 - 2025
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    © 2015 - 2021 Debbi Mack
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