Leadership Limbo

Josh Hugo and John Clark
  • 4.8 (21)
  • SELF-IMPROVEMENT

This is Leadership Limbo —a podcast aimed at helping leaders embrace the discomfort and power of leading themselves and others in the midst of it all. We blend real insight with practical tools to help you lead with self-awareness, purpose, and influence—wherever you are on your leadership journey. Learn more about the work both Josh and John to support leaders by visiting our websites: John Clark, Founder of Best Days Consulting: bestdaysconsulting.org Josh Hugo, Founder of PIQ Strategies: piqstrategies.com

  1. 5D AGO

    Leadership Presence: Barriers and Strategies

    Episode Summary: In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John continue their series on leadership presence by shifting from definition to diagnosis. After exploring what presence is, they now examine what disrupts it. Drawing from systems theory, personal leadership stories, and practical workplace examples, they unpack the subtle forces that pull leaders out of connection and into reactivity. The core insight is simple: presence is not something you add on. It emerges when you remove what is getting in the way. Josh reintroduces the concept of de-envelopment—a term Andrew Robinson brought into conversation—challenging leaders to strip away reactive habits rather than stack new techniques. When anxiety rises in meetings, conflict, or uncertainty, leaders default into predictable postures. Some over-function, over-explain, and hustle for affirmation. Others defer too quickly, distance themselves from decisions, or avoid discomfort. Still others push agendas forcefully, mistaking control for confidence. Throughout the episode, these patterns are connected to real leadership moments: rescuing instead of empowering, over-talking to secure credibility, withdrawing under pressure, or bulldozing conversations in the name of decisiveness. Each response is understandable, but each reduces presence and erodes trust. The conversation also names practical barriers such as distraction, physical absence, tone, lack of preparation, and disorganization. Presence is both internal and external. It requires emotional regulation and self-awareness, but also visible engagement and structured leadership behavior. The episode closes with practical strategies for cultivating presence in daily leadership: speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing strained relationships early, structuring meetings around learning, and embracing silence. Presence, they remind listeners, is not mystical. It is disciplined, relational, and built through consistent practice. ----more----Key Takeaways: Presence grows when leaders remove anxiety-driven reactions rather than adding performance techniques. Over-functioning and under-functioning are two common but opposite barriers to presence. Agenda-driven behavior often signals insecurity more than confidence. Distraction, tone, and lack of preparation communicate disengagement quickly. Presence requires emotional regulation and visible leadership discipline. Listener Homework: This week, identify your default anxiety response. Do you over-explain, defer too quickly, push harder, or withdraw? Choose one strategy from this episode to counter it. Speak last in your next meeting. Limit your airtime. Repair a strained relationship early. Shift a goal from execution to learning. Presence grows when you intentionally remove what blocks it. ----more----Timestamped Chapters: 00:00 – Recap: What Is Presence? Revisiting the foundation before examining what disrupts it. 05:30 – Reintroducing De-Envelopment Stripping away anxiety-driven reactions instead of layering on new techniques. 12:00 – Over-Functioning and Hustling for Worth How over-explaining and rescuing undermine presence. 19:30 – Distancing and Avoiding Discomfort The subtle cost of under-functioning and chronic deference. 27:00 – Agenda-Driven Leadership When control replaces collaboration. 34:30 – Practical Strategies to Strengthen Presence Speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing early, and prioritizing learning. ----more---- Resources Referenced: Growing Yourself Up by Jenny Brown Bowen Family Systems Theory Multipliers by Liz Wiseman David Whyte essays "Time"  The PIQ Perspective – josh482.substack.com

    42 min

  2. FEB 10

    Manager Identity: The Power of Presence

    Episode Overview: In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore one of the most essential yet misunderstood leadership capacities: presence. Moving beyond the idea of executive polish or charisma, they reframe presence as the ability to create safety, clarity, and forward movement simply by how a leader shows up with others. The conversation builds on recent discussions about influence, self-preservation, and development, grounding the idea of presence in lived experience rather than theory. Josh introduces a powerful reflection from poet and philosopher David Whyte, connecting presence to gravity and mass—the idea that true presence slows time, opens possibility, and invites others toward deeper engagement rather than resistance. John and Josh unpack how presence shows up in everyday leadership moments: listening without rushing to respond, resisting the urge to fix or dominate, and creating space for others to step forward at their own pace. Through a personal story about parenting and coaching, John illustrates how walls of self-preservation—fear, ego, and the need to prove something—can block presence, and how removing those walls creates growth and confidence. The episode also clarifies what presence is not. It is not positional authority, charisma without care, physical proximity without intention, or oversharing personal struggle in ways that burden others. Presence is not paralysis or endless collaboration, nor is it speed for the sake of productivity. Instead, presence is grounded, curious, and disciplined. It allows leaders to listen deeply, make decisions confidently, and move teams forward together. The conversation closes by emphasizing that presence is not a switch you flip, but a continual internal practice. In a culture that rewards constant motion and urgency, choosing presence is countercultural work. Leaders who cultivate it slow time for others, reduce unnecessary friction, and create the conditions for trust, development, and meaningful progress. Timestamped Chapters: 00:00 – Welcome and Framing the Conversation Josh and John set the stage for a deeper exploration of leadership presence and why it matters now. 03:15 – Influence, Self-Preservation, and a Personal Leadership Story A reflection on walls of self-preservation and how fear and ego show up in leadership and parenting. 09:45 – Defining Presence and Why It Changes Everything Introducing presence as gravity that slows time and invites others toward growth. 13:30 – Presence, Time, and the Work of Deep Listening Exploring how presence creates flow, reduces tension, and accelerates real progress. 18:45 – What Presence Is Not Clarifying common misconceptions around charisma, authority, visibility, and oversharing. 32:00 – Presence in Meetings, Decisions, and Daily Leadership Why meetings, priorities, and one-to-ones either create presence or quietly destroy it. 44:00 – Reflection and Homework Practical guidance for becoming more present with priorities or people this week. Listener Homework: This week, identify one place where your presence matters most right now. It may be a key priority that needs focused attention, or a person who needs deeper listening and understanding. Choose one and be deliberate. Slow yourself down. Ask better questions. Notice whether time feels different—whether tension eases, clarity increases, or progress accelerates. That shift is your signal that presence is taking root. Resources Referenced: David Whyte, Time and Consolations David Brooks, How to Know a Person Leadership Limbo frameworks on presence, influence, and developing others

    41 min

  3. FEB 3

    The Management Paradigm Is Broken: A New Way Forward with Andrew Robinson

    Summary In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark engage with Andrew Robinson, a leader in organizational development, to explore the limitations of traditional management practices and the need for a shift towards a development mindset. Andrew discusses his new venture, Oxygen, which aims to create sustainable leadership development systems that empower individuals and organizations to thrive. The conversation delves into the etymology of management, the impact of AI on leadership, and practical steps leaders can take to foster growth and presence within their teams. Read more about Andrew's work at www.andrewfrobinson.com and read his work at https://andrewfrobinson.substack.com/ and be sure to follow his exciting new venture, Oxygen! Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 03:17 Introducing Andrew Robinson and His Work 04:50 The Launch of Oxygen: A New Approach to Leadership Development 08:24 Challenging the Management Mindset 19:15 The Etymology of Management and Its Implications 29:05 The Intersection of AI and Human Development 30:17 Practical Applications of Oxygen's Approach 34:31 Questions for Leaders to Reflect On 39:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections Keywords leadership, management, development, organizational growth, self-awareness, presence, human potential, leadership mindset, Oxygen, Andrew Robinson

    44 min

  4. JAN 27

    Influence: The Art of Influence

    Summary In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts John Clark and Josh Hugo explore the complexities of influence and relationships in leadership. They discuss the importance of trust, the distinction between kindness and niceness, and the role of feedback in fostering healthy professional relationships. The conversation delves into the challenges of self-preservation and cynicism, emphasizing the need for managers to lower their own walls of self-preservation to effectively influence their teams. Practical applications and homework are provided to help listeners reflect on their own leadership styles and improve their influence. Takeaways Leadership is about embracing discomfort and self-awareness. Building relationships in the workplace requires trust and clarity. Kindness is more impactful than mere niceness in professional settings. Feedback is essential for growth and trust in relationships. Self-preservation can hinder effective influence and communication. Cynicism often arises from fear of vulnerability and loss. Empowering others is more effective than rescuing them. Understanding individual communication styles is crucial for influence. Balancing character and competence is key to effective leadership. Good leadership involves making space for tension and growth. You can find an image of The Influence Model here: https://share.google/rWqf9vR40eVEZFXJX)  Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo 02:53 The Power of Influence 04:41 Understanding Relationships in Leadership 07:55 The Difference Between Kindness and Niceness 11:42 Influence and Self-Preservation 15:38 Navigating Cynicism and Trust 19:03 Understanding Cynicism and Self-Preservation 23:16 Influence in Manager-Employee Relationships 29:02 Balancing Character and Competence 35:16 The Role of Self-Preservation in Leadership

    39 min

  5. JAN 20

    Influence: 9 Types of Influence and Why It Matters

    In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John turn their focus to one of the most critical and misunderstood leadership capabilities for middle managers: influence. Building on the previous conversation about the pressures and possibilities of middle management, they explore why influence—not authority, control, or coercion—is the currency that allows leaders to move people, ideas, and organizations forward in today’s fast-moving workplace. The conversation begins by distinguishing influence from power. Josh and John argue that modern organizations can no longer rely on positional authority or top-down control to drive results. As work becomes faster, flatter, and more relational, managers must learn how to influence through trust, credibility, and care. Influence, they emphasize, is inseparable from development. Leaders who approach management as a way to grow people, rather than extract output, are far more likely to earn followership and sustain performance. The episode introduces a set of nine common influence styles, not as a hierarchy of good and bad behaviors, but as tools that can be used wisely or poorly depending on motive, context, and overuse. From data-driven rational appeals to relational, values-based, and personal appeals, Josh and John unpack how each style works, where it can be effective, and how it can break down when leaders rely on it too heavily or without self-awareness. Throughout the discussion, they return to a central theme: posture matters. Influence that is rooted in control, avoidance, or self-protection is often sensed, even if it sounds supportive on the surface. By contrast, influence grounded in genuine care for another person’s growth creates trust, accountability, and learning. The episode challenges managers to examine not just how they influence, but why. The conversation closes with a reframing of influence as an ongoing practice rather than a momentary tactic. Effective influence begins long before a decision is announced. It is built through curiosity, listening, understanding people’s motivations, and asking better questions. When leaders invest in knowing their people and their organization deeply, influence becomes more natural, adaptive, and human. Key Takeaways: Influence is more effective than authority in modern organizations, especially for middle managers operating without full control or decision-making power. Leadership influence is inseparable from development. People are more likely to follow leaders they respect, trust, and believe are invested in their growth. There are multiple influence styles, and no single approach works in every situation. Over-reliance on one style often creates blind spots. Posture matters as much as technique. Influence rooted in care and accountability feels different than influence driven by control or convenience. Asking thoughtful questions is often more powerful than issuing directives when it comes to motivating and aligning others. Listener Homework: Take time this week to reflect on your default influence style. Consider which approaches you rely on most and where that reliance may be limiting your effectiveness. Identify one influence style you tend to underuse and experiment with it intentionally in an upcoming conversation. Pay attention not just to outcomes, but to how people respond and what it reveals about trust and connection.

    37 min

  6. JAN 13

    Manager Identity: Troubling Statistics About the State of Management

    Episode Overview: In the Season Two premiere of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John return to the core reason this podcast exists: the often overlooked and overburdened role of the middle manager. Instead of starting the year with goals or resolutions, they examine a more urgent question facing organizations today—why middle management has become a major driver of disengagement, burnout, and organizational underperformance. The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides. Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity. They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth. The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions. Key Takeaways: Middle managers play the most influential role in engagement but are often the least supported and least developed. Engagement issues are rarely solved through broad initiatives and are most effectively addressed through manager development. Transactional cultures undermine trust, while relational leadership builds sustainable performance. Psychological safety for managers is essential for psychological safety across teams. Leadership development requires mindset and identity growth, not just technical skill building. Listener Homework: Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives. Resources Referenced: Gallup workplace engagement research  Harvard Business Review research on psychological safety

    34 min

  7. JAN 6

    Top Hits of 2025: Development - The Development Square

    In the last of our Season 1 Redux - the Best of 2025 - we are re-sharing an episode all about a Development System: The Development Square.  We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework. If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen. Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!   Original Episode Description Below: Episode Summary: In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram. Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth. Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation. They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them. Key Takeaways: Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event. True growth is woven into daily leadership, not reserved for workshops or annual reviews. Everyone learns differently. What worked for you may not work for them. Development requires empathy, flexibility, and intentionality. The Four Stages of Development: Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low. Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins. Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases. Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others. Beware the “pit of despair.” When confidence collapses, leaders must support—not rescue—those they lead. Don’t get stuck in the “green room.” Competence can lead to complacency; stretch high performers by challenging them to multiply others. Your mindset still drives your method. Even with a strong framework, self-preservation and ego can derail development. Stay other-oriented. Listener Homework: Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member. Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication. Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage? More modeling and demonstration? Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback? Space to practice with support? Stretch opportunities to mentor others? Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next? Resources Mentioned: The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty) Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

    36 min

  8. 12/30/2025

    Top Hits of 2025: Are You Trying to Be Interesting or Interested?

    To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 9 - Communication: Are You Trying to Be Interested or Interesting? As we spend time with family and friends during this holiday season, ask yourself, am I taking part in conversations in which I'm trying to be interesting or interested in others? We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025! And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.   Episode Overview (Original Notes) In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity. Key Themes & Takeaways Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them. Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions. Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives. Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention. Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will. Memorable Quotes or Moments “Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?” “Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.” “You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.” “Communication equals transmission plus receiving.” Homework / Reflection Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down. Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.). Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove? Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication. Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

    34 min
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4.8
out of 5
21 Ratings

About

This is Leadership Limbo —a podcast aimed at helping leaders embrace the discomfort and power of leading themselves and others in the midst of it all. We blend real insight with practical tools to help you lead with self-awareness, purpose, and influence—wherever you are on your leadership journey. Learn more about the work both Josh and John to support leaders by visiting our websites: John Clark, Founder of Best Days Consulting: bestdaysconsulting.org Josh Hugo, Founder of PIQ Strategies: piqstrategies.com

Information

  • Creator
    Josh Hugo and John Clark
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    28
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2025 All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    Leadership Limbo