Live Behind The Veil

The Epistles

"Live Behind The Veil" is an atmosphere created by men and women of God speaking in the Holy Spirit the Father's Word. Spiritual and temporal topics are addressed openly and without respect to political correctness or religious restraint. The underlying question is always being asked; "Are you hungry and open for more of what God is pouring out?"

  1. 1D AGO

    Christ Speaking Through His Body

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This episode explores the reality of Christ expressing Himself through His Body. As believers grow in maturity and oneness, they begin to move beyond striving and into a deeper flow of the Spirit where the Lord speaks through yielded vessels. The cross becomes the pathway into this life, bringing the dying out of self so that Christ can live and minister through His people. Instead of relying on knowledge, religious systems, or personal effort, the Body of Christ is learning to trust the Spirit of God and enter into His rest. In that place of faith and surrender, believers become living channels of the Holy Spirit, speaking a living word and ministering Christ to one another in love, freedom, and unity. Show Notes Entering a Life in the Spirit The discussion begins with the recognition that believers are being drawn into a deeper experience of knowing the Lord by the Spirit and relating to one another in that same realm. God's purpose has never been centered on isolated individuals but on a corporate Body—a family and a Kingdom through which Christ can express Himself. Maturity and Oneness in the Body As the Body matures, there is a growing sense of unity and shared life. Ministry becomes less about individual effort and more about the collective expression of Christ flowing through His people. The Cross as the Pathway The cross remains central to spiritual growth. Through the process of dying to self and accepting the Lord’s dealings, believers are transformed and brought into true sonship. What may seem like pressure or difficulty is actually God's loving work shaping His sons and daughters. Moving Beyond Religion into Spirit Many believers remain stuck in systems that operate at the level of the soul and flesh. Without the work of the cross, spiritual growth stalls. True life in the Spirit requires leaving behind religious striving and entering into genuine spiritual experience. Freedom From Striving As believers learn to trust the Spirit, they stop striving to perform or prove themselves. Instead, they begin to minister from the Lord's presence, allowing His Spirit to speak through them naturally. Christ Ministering Through His People When believers serve one another with love and faith, Christ Himself is ministering through them. The Spirit flows through simple acts of obedience, planting seeds, watering hearts, and allowing God to bring the increase. Entering Into God's Rest The conversation concludes with the call to enter into God's rest. This means trusting the Lord rather than relying on personal understanding, past experiences, or religious tradition. In this place of faith and surrender, the Holy Spirit flows freely and Christ speaks through His Body. Quotes Debbie: “We're coming into a place of spirit and a place of knowing the Lord by the Spirit, and knowing each other by the spirit.” Ron: “He wants a kingdom. He wants a family. He wants a body of Christ.” Ken: “You just jump into the water and go with it. The Lord creates something that you look back and you say, who spoke that word?” Ron: “This is what God's doing because He loves me and He wants me to be a son, and He wants me to come closer to Him.” Mike: “That which is spirit is spirit. That which is flesh is flesh and religion is flesh.” Ken: “When things drop off because of the cross, all of a sudden you realize how much lighter you are.” Ron: “We're not asking people to come to the Lord. We're creating an open door in their hearts.” Ken: “We're simply ministering out of the Lord's presence in the Spirit.” Ed: “You're ministering to your brother as if he is Christ.” Ron: “This is gonna be Christ speaking through me.” Scriptural References Galatians 2 (20) “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” Matthew 28 (19) “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” Matthew 25 (40) “Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” John 3 (6) “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Hebrews 4 (9–11) “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” Proverbs 3 (5–6) “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” Philippians 1 (21) “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.” 1 Corinthians 12 (27) “Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.” Takeaway Christ desires to express Himself through His people. As believers embrace the work of the cross, release striving, and trust the Holy Spirit, they enter a place of rest where the Lord speaks and ministers through them. The Body of Christ becomes a living channel of the Spirit—bringing life, freedom, and revelation to others.

    11 min
  2. 5D AGO

    The Body of Christ – A Mighty People

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This conversation reveals that God is not primarily raising up individual spiritual heroes, but a corporate Body of believers functioning together as one living organism under Christ the Head. Through the many-membered Body, Christ receives His voice in the earth as believers speak and live the Word of God. A true word from God is creative, imparting the life and nature of God into those who receive it. As believers become cleansed and yielded vessels, they function as channels of that living Word. The vision presented is of a corporate people—an anointed family, a mighty army—each member placed by God and functioning in their unique role. Some speak the Word, others build, create, govern, serve, or perform practical works. Together they demonstrate the Kingdom of God on the earth. This corporate functioning fulfills Jesus’ promise that greater works would be done, not by individuals alone but by a unified Body empowered by the Spirit of God. Show Notes 1. The Body of Christ Is Corporate, Not Individual God does not work through isolated individuals but through a many-membered Body. Believers help prepare and build one another through the living Word.Christ receives His voice through His people.The Holy Spirit speaks through yielded vessels. Key idea: God needs a people, not just a person. 2. God Places Each Member in the Body Every believer has a divinely appointed function. God sets members in the Body according to His will.No one appoints themselves or judges another's role.Each person fills a place designed by God. Realizing this brings humility and unity. 3. A Word From God Is Creative God’s Word is not merely information—it creates spiritual reality. It is not aimed at intellect alone.It forms Christ within the believer.It carries the same creative power that formed the world. Receiving the Word requires openness, dedication, and purification. 4. God Is Raising a Body That Knows Him The Holy Spirit is emphasizing a corporate people who know God personally. Each member can hear from the Lord.Each member can speak a living word.Christ is expressed through the whole Body. This represents a new level of corporate awareness of Christ within. 5. Greater Works Through the Corporate Body Jesus’ promise of greater works becomes possible through a unified Body. One person can accomplish much.Many functioning together can accomplish far more.The family of God releases multiplied authority. This reveals the potential power of the Body when aligned with Christ. 6. The Kingdom Requires Many Functions The Body includes far more than speakers or preachers. God raises up: CraftsmenBuildersWorkersCreatorsLeadersServants The Kingdom operates through anointed people doing God’s work in every sphere of life. 7. The Body of Christ Is a Mighty Army The Body functions like an army with many roles. Not everyone is on the front line.Each function contributes to victory.God’s power is revealed through the collective. The strength of the army comes from God working through His people together. Key Quotes Mike “God needs a people, not one person. Through this many-membered body He functions, and we give Christ His voice.” Ken “When you realize you’re part of something greater than yourself, you begin to see the greater works Jesus promised.” Ron “When a word comes from God, it is God. It carries the same creative power He used to create the world.” Mike “Our prophecies and prayers will do more than any law passed by man.” Ron “The Kingdom is not just people speaking the Word. It’s men and women who do God.” Ken “What we’re really talking about is a mighty army.” Scriptural References The Body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12 (12–18)“For as the body is one and has many members…”Romans 12 (4–5)“So we, being many, are one body in Christ.” Members Placed by God 1 Corinthians 12 (18)“God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.” The Creative Power of the Word Genesis 1 (3)“Then God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.”Isaiah 55 (11)“So shall My word be… it shall accomplish what I please.”Hebrews 4 (12)“The word of God is living and powerful.” Greater Works span style="font-size:...

    10 min
  3. MAR 12

    The Only Foundation that Works – The Motivation of Love

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This conversation explores the central truth that love is the only foundation upon which spiritual life and ministry can function effectively. While doctrine, discipline, gifting, and structure all have their place, they ultimately fail if they are not rooted in the love of God. The speakers identify frustration in ministry, especially around the recognition of the fivefold ministry, as often stemming from a deeper issue—the absence of love as the driving motivation. Love is not about position or title. Christ alone holds the position. The Body functions properly not when offices are recognized, but when believers operate in His presence and His love. True maturity is not defined by visible roles but by oneness formed through divine love. As believers press into love and unity, everything contrary to it surfaces—division, pride, self-will, and accusation. These exposures are not setbacks but part of God’s cleansing process. Love sustains, corrects, humbles, and empowers the Body to function as family. Without it, nothing works. With it, Christ prevails. Show Notes 1. Love as the Core Motivation Change begins with motivation.Ministry, gifts, and discipline fail without love.Love must be the foundation of everything. 2. The House Analogy Structure alone does not make a home livable.Spiritual systems may look perfect but won’t function without love.Love is what makes the “house” of God livable. 3. Frustration Around Fivefold Ministry Correct doctrine does not guarantee effectiveness.Recognition of offices does not produce maturity.The missing element is the impartation and appropriation of God’s love. 4. No Positions in the Family Christ alone holds the position.The fivefold ministry functions organically within the Body.Grace, not title, brings forth true ministry. 5. Love and Oneness Love cannot be separated from unity or fullness.Maturity comes through shared participation in love.Oneness emerges as love deepens. 6. Love Exposes the Opposite Pressing into love brings hidden division to the surface.Accusations and relational tensions test love.Laying down self-will is necessary for unity. 7. Love Sustains and Prevails The Lord prevails through love, not personal striving.Love keeps believers steady through backlash.Failure becomes an opportunity for cleansing and growth. 8. The Example of Moses Korah operated from position-thinking.Moses responded in humility and worship.Love trusts God to defend and establish. Key Quotes “It’s all about motivation.”“If the true motivation of the love of the Lord’s not in your heart… things just fail.”“You can have all your doctrines correct… and yet things don’t work.”“There are no positions in the family.”“He’s the only one with the position.”“Without the love of Christ, you’re nothing.”“Take up the banner of love and oneness—we’re not going any further.”“The Lord will prevail—not you—but the Lord will prevail through you.”“The love of Christ controls us.”“It’s God’s love in all aspects of who we are and what we’re doing.” Scriptural References 1 Corinthians 13 (1–3) Without love, even spiritual gifts and sacrifice amount to nothing. Ephesians 4 (11–16) Fivefold ministry given for maturity and unity in Christ. Colossians 3 (14) Love as the perfect bond of unity. 2 Corinthians 5 (14) “The love of Christ controls us.” Matthew 22 (37–40) The greatest commandments: love God and love others. 1 John 4 (8) “God is love.” 1 John 1 (9) Faithful forgiveness and cleansing. Numbers 16 Moses and Korah — humility before God versus position-seeking. Takeaway Spiritual growth, unity, and effective ministry cannot be manufactured through structure, recognition, or correct teaching alone. The determining factor is love—God’s love imparted, received, and lived out. When love governs: The Body functions without striving.Positions fade and grace emerges.Christ prevails through His people. The real question is not, “Are we structured correctly?” It is, “Are we motivated by love?” Love is not an addition to the foundation. It is the foundation.

    12 min
  4. MAR 8

    Is God Enough – Seeking First the Kingdom

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. SUMMARY This episode explores what it truly means to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. The discussion centers on surrendering to Christ’s authority, aligning with His purposes, and allowing Him to manifest His Kingdom through a yielded people. The family emphasizes that worship is not merely singing, but presenting our lives as living sacrifices. True Kingdom alignment is revealed when believers continue loving, trusting, and walking with God regardless of circumstances. The ultimate question remains: Is God enough? SHOW NOTES Seeking first the Kingdom means living under Christ’s authority.Righteousness is alignment with His will, not self-effort.The Kingdom has been present since Christ introduced it and is now being manifested.The Kingdom is revealed through humility and surrendered vessels.We do not bring the Kingdom; we align with His purposes and allow Him to work.Worship is the purest expression of seeking the Kingdom.Worship is not just singing—it is presenting our bodies as living sacrifices.The greatest worship is loving God regardless of circumstance.True commitment says, “I will walk with God whether I live or die.”Overcoming comes through the blood of the Lamb, our testimony, and loving not our lives unto death.The love of the Lord is unchanging and unfathomable.God completes what He begins.The central question: Is God enough in every situation? KEY QUOTES “If He's King, then He's in authority, and whatever He speaks, that we do.”“We don’t bring the Kingdom; we align our spirits with His purposes.”“The greatest worship you and I can give is when, in spite of everything we go through, we say, ‘Yes, I love You.’”“Is God enough for you? Worship Him.”“To love Him is His perfect will.”“There has to be that thing in your spirit that says, ‘I’m going to walk with God regardless if I live or die.’”“The love of the Lord is the key.”“What He has begun, He will complete.” SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES Matthew 6 (33)– Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.Matthew 11 (12)– The Kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.Romans 12 (1)– Present your bodies a living sacrifice, your spiritual service of worship.Revelation 12 (11)– Overcome by the blood of the Lamb, the word of testimony, and loving not our lives unto death.Hebrews 12 (2)– Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.Psalm 22 (3)– He dwells in the praises of His people.Jeremiah 31 (33)– I will write My law on their hearts.Philippians 1 (6)– He who began a good work in you will complete it. TAKEAWAY Seeking first the Kingdom is not about activity—it is about surrender. When we worship, yield, and love God regardless of circumstances, we align with His purposes and allow His Kingdom to be manifested through us. The question every believer must answer is simple but profound: Is God enough?

    11 min
  5. MAR 2

    One Body, One Lord – How the Holy Spirit Creates Divine Order

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This message reveals that divine order is not created by human structure, hierarchy, or position, but by submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. In this “new day,” individual independence gives way to corporate submission—each member of the Body aligned under Christ as Head. Ministries such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are not ranks of authority but expressions of the Holy Spirit moving through different members at different times. No individual receives preeminence; the anointing belongs to God alone. Just as a physical body functions in coordinated harmony under the direction of the head, so the Ecclesia functions when every part submits one to another under Christ. Divine order is not democracy, nor hierarchy—it is Spirit-led alignment under the Lordship of Jesus. Show Notes 1. Divine Order Is Not Man-Made Divine order is not someone “setting people in place.”It is not structural hierarchy.It flows from submission to Jesus Christ as Lord.In this day, independence in spiritual life is not sustainable.The whole family must be aligned together. 2. The Holy Spirit Creates the Order The Holy Spirit is the source of all anointing.Ministry roles are not fixed titles but Spirit-led expressions.At one moment someone may function apostolically; at another, differently.The Spirit is the true Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher.God does not share His glory with individuals. 3. The Body Functions Through Alignment No part is more important than another.Just as the physical body functions under the brain’s direction, the Body of Christ functions under Christ as Head.When one part is missing or out of alignment, the whole body suffers.Divine order means the right function at the right time under the Spirit’s direction. 4. Submission Is the Key Jesus washing the disciples’ feet demonstrated mutual submission.Leadership exists for equipping the saints—not self-exaltation.“Submit one to another in the fear of God.”Lordship is not democracy; Christ is Lord.Under His Lordship, we are changed and refined. 5. The True Ecclesia The church is not a building but people gathered in submission to Christ.Ministries are gifts for maturity in the Body.God sets members in the Body as it pleases Him.The goal is a mature, functioning Body under Christ. Key Quotes “Divine order is centered in the Holy Spirit.”“It’s not hierarchy—it’s the Holy Spirit expressing Himself.”“God is not going to share His glory with anyone.”“No one has to be the outstanding one—we are all equal in the Body of Christ.”“Submission is such a key point in all of this.”“He’s the Lord—not a democracy.”“When we submit our spirits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, He controls what we speak.”“There will be order in the Kingdom Ecclesia—and it’s happening.” Scriptural References Lordship & Submission Ephesians 5 (21) “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”Philippians 2 (9–11) Every knee bowing to Jesus as Lord.Luke 22 (26–27) The greatest among you shall be as the servant. The Body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12 (12–27) Many members, one body.Romans 12 (4–5) Members one of another.1 Corinthians 12 (18) God sets the members in the body as it pleases Him. Ministry Gifts Ephesians 4 (11–13) Given for equipping the saints.1 Corinthians 12 (4–7) Varieties of gifts, same Spirit. God’s Glory Isaiah 42 (8) “My glory I will not give to another.” The Ecclesia Matthew 18 (20) Where two or three are gathered in My name.Acts 2 (42–47) The functioning early church community. Takeaway Divine order is not about position, prominence, or control—it is about submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. When each member yields to Him and to one another, the Body functions in harmony, maturity, and power. The Spirit determines expression, God receives the glory, and Christ alone remains the Head.

    12 min
  6. FEB 26

    The Fire That Forms Oneness

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. SUMMARY This podcast explores the deeper work of God beyond salvation and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The family emphasize that true oneness in the Body of Christ is formed not by gifts or experiences, but by the purifying fire of God that burns away the old nature. Many believers stop after initial experiences with the Lord, but God calls His people into a progressive, transformative journey that requires hunger, submission, and surrender. SHOW NOTES Many believers move in gifts but lack ongoing hunger.Gifts alone do not produce oneness—only continual revelation does.The Holy Spirit gives power but not transformation by itself.The fire burns away carnality, individuality, and self-centeredness.The early church was forged in fire—pressure, persecution, divine dealings.True oneness forms when people face fire together.When tested, believers can either submit or become bitter.Trials expose the “chaff”—selfishness, attitudes, and old patterns.God won’t force surrender.The key is asking what God desires.Believers were bought with a price.Self-will and personal control must submit to the potter’s hands.Being Christ’s disciple means relinquishing ownership of one’s life.Christ leads; believers follow.“This is just who I am” is not truth—God plans to remake His people. QUOTES Ken: “The gift without the hunger leaves something lacking.” “There is more. It’s an exciting, eventful journey into God.” “You’re the one God wants to change and create in His image.” Ron: “You may move in the gifts and still be very carnal.” “The fire is the next step God is requiring.” “If you’re not your own, you don’t get to make the decisions about your life anymore.” Debbie: “To become a son, you must go through the fire.” “To be a Kingdom disciple means I no longer belong to myself—I belong entirely to Christ.” “If Christ leads, nothing is wasted.” Mike: “You are not your own… you were bought with a price.” “We glorify God by letting Him come through the vessel.” Lois: “What is being burned out? Selfishness. All of those attitudes.” SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES - 1 Corinthians 6 (19–20) - Acts 2 – Day of Pentecost - Acts 5 (1–11) – Ananias & Sapphira - Philippians 1 (6) - Malachi 3 (2–3) - Romans 12 (1–2) - Luke 22 (42) - Isaiah 64 (8) - John 17 (21–23) TAKEAWAY The pathway to oneness in the Body of Christ is formed in the fire of God that burns away the old nature and forms His likeness in us. The fire reveals motives, removes selfishness, reshapes our identity, and brings us into a unity only God can create. Oneness is born when believers surrender their will, humble their hearts, embrace God’s dealings, and allow Christ to fully live through them. The fire is not punishment—it is formation, God’s love forging His sons into His image, together.

    13 min
  7. FEB 22

    The Greater Works Of Oneness

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This message reveals that the “greater works” Jesus spoke of are not primarily outward signs and wonders, but the inward work of God forming His people into true oneness. Through the breaking of the human nature and the renewing of the mind and spirit, God is creating a people who can see with His eyes, love with His heart, and function together as a fully formed body in Christ. These greater works culminate in the completion of the Body of Christ—living, unified, and expressing God’s heart toward all. Show Notes • The “greater works” include miracles, but go far beyond outward manifestations • Human personality, mindset, and effort cannot produce true unity • Oneness is a work of the Spirit, not agreement of opinions • God is forming a people who are not recognizable by natural or religious standards • Comparison and self-measurement hinder spiritual transformation • A broken spirit allows God to change us more quickly and deeply • The greatest sign is what happens inwardly before it manifests outwardly • Seeing with God’s eyes removes contempt, prejudice, and judgment • Jesus consistently defied human ideas of worthiness • The ultimate greater work is the completion of the Body of Christ • Oneness reveals God’s heart toward every person • God alone receives the glory—this work cannot be credited to human effort Key Quotes “You cannot bring people into one mind naturally, but in the Spirit, God brings us into oneness.” “The greatest sign you’re going to see is the one that happens inside.” “God is creating something so new that it’s not recognizable—even to our own minds.” “Our spirit needs to be broken so God can change us quicker.” “The greater works ultimately turn into the completion of the Body of Christ.” “We can’t take any credit for this—it’s all about what He’s doing.” Scriptural References John 14 (12) – Greater works than these shall he do Ephesians 4 (13) – Unity of the faith and the full stature of Christ 1 Corinthians 12 (12–27) – One body, many members John 17 (20–23) – Jesus’ prayer for oneness Romans 12 (2) – Transformation through renewing of the mind Philippians 2 (5) – Having the mind of Christ 1 Corinthians 2 (16) – We have the mind of Christ Psalm 51 (17) – A broken and contrite heart Colossians 1 (27–28) – Christ in you, bringing us to completion Takeaway The greater works are not something we perform—they are something God forms within us. As our hearts are softened, our spirits broken before Him, and our vision purified, God brings us into true oneness. This inward transformation produces a unified Body that sees as He sees, loves as He loves, and stands complete together in Christ—right now.

    9 min
  8. FEB 18

    The Devastation That Forms A Royal Priesthood

    *Listen to the Show notes and podcast transcript with this multi-language player. Summary This conversation explores God’s work in forming not isolated individuals, but a corporate people—a family and a royal priesthood. Through devastation, humility, and submission, God is bringing forth a purified company that exists not for personal gain, recognition, or ministry ambition, but to minister to the Lord Himself. The family emphasize that devastation is not meaningless suffering but a divine process that strips away self-interest and prepares God’s people to walk as sons, worshipers, and priests. This priesthood is not defined by position or title, but by a spiritual state of being—one that fulfills God’s eternal purpose revealed from the foundation of the world. Show Notes God is shifting from individual ministry emphasis to acorporate, family expressionTeaching and ministry flow through thebody, not a single voiceEach believer carries a different aspect of what the Spirit is speakingDevastation humbles the heart and removes pride and self-ambitionGod is raising acompany, not elevating personalitiesWorship is offering ourselves fully to God as living sacrificesPriesthood is aspiritual state, not an individual roleThe motivation of walking with God changes from “what I get” to “what God gets”God is forming a people for His own possessionSons of God walk in the earth as Christ walkedTrue priesthood is formed through submission, not recognitionGod is the potter; we are the clay Key Quotes “The teaching priest is coming through the family, through the body—not one person.”“There is a greater purity in the company God is raising up rather than individuals.”“Devastation is a prelude to the priesthood.”“The motivation of walking with God changes when it’s no longer about us.”“God is creating a people for His own possession.”“Priesthood is not so much an individual thing as it is a spiritual state.”“We’re not living unto ourselves—we’re dying to ourselves to minister to the Lord.”“He’s the potter. We’re the clay.” Scriptural References Romans 12( 1)Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, your true worship1 Peter 2 (9)A chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nationRevelation 1 (5–6)Made a kingdom of priests unto GodExodus 19 (5–6)God’s desire for a kingdom of priestsPhilippians 1 (21)To live is Christ, to die is gainJohn 4 (23–24)The Father seeks true worshipersIsaiah 64 (80The Lord as potter; we as clayEphesians 4 (15–16)The body growing together in love Takeaway God is not primarily forming gifted individuals—He is forming a people. Through devastation, humility, and surrender, He is shaping a royal priesthood that lives not for itself, but to give God what He desires. When ambition dies and submission is embraced, a family emerges—standing before God day and night, ministering to Him as sons and priests.

    10 min

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
4 Ratings

About

"Live Behind The Veil" is an atmosphere created by men and women of God speaking in the Holy Spirit the Father's Word. Spiritual and temporal topics are addressed openly and without respect to political correctness or religious restraint. The underlying question is always being asked; "Are you hungry and open for more of what God is pouring out?"