The Apprenticeship Way with Marc Alan Schelske

Marc Alan Schelske
  • 5.0 (25)
  • Christianity

Spiritual vitality following the Jesus way.

  1. 08/07/2025

    Six Weeks to Grow? Yes, Please! (TAW061)

    Episode 061 - Six Weeks to Grow? Yes, Please! Journaling for Spiritual Growth, my book that teaches you a sustainable practice for spiritual and emotional growth, comes out this week. This is the 2nd edition, published with Whitaker House. Let's browse through the book together! Show Notes In this episode, Marc discusses his new book, Journaling for Spiritual Growth (2nd ed.), exploring its themes, structure, and the transformative power of journaling. He pages through the book, pointing out key features, so you can sort out if this is the right book for you. Takeaways Journaling is a transformative practice that can lead to personal and spiritual growth. The book is structured into six weeks, each focusing on different aspects of journaling. Perspective is crucial for a sustainable journaling practice. Templates can help guide your journaling and make it more effective. Grace is the only safe environment for spiritual growth. The appendices provide valuable resources and insights for journaling. Creating a habit of journaling requires understanding competing habits. Silence is an essential part of the journaling process. Inward and Godward reflections are key ingredients for effective journaling. Faithfulness in journaling means returning to the practice consistently. Recommended Resources www.JournalingForSpiritualGrowth.com Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube. More about My Conversation Partner It's me. Hi. I'm the problem, it's me. Marc Alan Schelske is a happily recovering fundamentalist praying for the restoration of all things. He writes and teaches about spiritual maturity, emotional growth, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. His books, including Walking Otherward, Journaling for Spiritual Growth, and The Wisdom of Your Heart, can be found at www.MarcAlanSchelske.com. Marc serves as the teaching elder at Bridge City Community Church in Milwaukie, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, where we work to keep all things, even Christianity, a bit weird. Find Marc Here Website: www.MarcAlanSchelske.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarcAlanSchelske Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marcalanscherlske/ Threads: https://www.threads.com/@marcalanschelske Today's Sponsor Journaling for Spiritual Growth - Brand new 2nd edition. Available in all the book places. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:00Hey, friends. I'm Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 61: Six weeks to grow? Yes, please! SPONSOR Today's podcast is brought to you by my brand-new hot-off-the-presses book, Journaling for Spiritual Growth. Second Edition. Launch day is always exciting for an author, and this is my sixth launch. I'm starting to feel like I'm actually an author, maybe. The rest of this podcast is going to have to do with this book in some way, what it's about. So that's all I'll say for now. Marc Schelske 0:32I spent a lot of time in bookstores when I was a kid. It's a special kind of joyful piece to sit on the carpeted floor of a bookstore aisle, slowly browsing through books you might want to read. Most of us buy our books online now, so we don't get to do that much anymore. I thought I would take some time to do that with you today. I recorded this Page Flip video of my new book a week ago, and it's posted on my website, but I wanted to share it here with you, dear podcast listener, for two reasons. First, because if you follow this podcast, you're interested in the kinds of things I'm up to when it comes to spiritual practice, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. So there's a pretty good chance this book might be up your alley, but unless you know what's in it, how will you know if it's a book for you? Second,

    27 min

  2. 06/19/2025

    Navigating Toward LGBTQ Affirmation (or How I became an Affirming Pastor) (TAW060)

    Episode 060 – Navigating Toward LGBTQ Affirmation (or How I became an Affirming Pastor) My journey from the Traditionalist view to becoming a fully Affirming pastor, with a perspective on a Gospel path to full Inclusion. This is a recorded version of the same presentation I gave at the Open Table Conference School of Theology in Sunriver in June of 2025. Show Notes In this episode, Marc Alan Schelske explores the complex relationship between faith and LGBTQ affirmation. Through personal stories, theological reflection, and the teachings of Jesus, he explains his own journey from the Traditionalist position to a position of full welcome, inclusion, and affirmation. Takeaways Marc, like many of us, had never really investigated the claims of the Traditionalist position that justified exclusion. The resources for in-depth study on this topic, including all the relevant scriptures, are provided in a downloadable resource for free. The Gospel, which is the narrative of Jesus’ life, acts, teaching, death, and resurrection, is meant to show us the true face of the Father so that we can set aside the false images we project onto God. Jesus’ life shows us over and over that God’s nature is to include those on the margins, rather than protect hard lines of exclusion. Recommended Resources Blog Version of my School of Theology presentation on John 13, The Foot Washing. Downloadable 11-page PDF Resource: Navigating LGBTQ Inclusion The Open Table Conference Information and Registration for Fall Class: A Gospel Path to LGBTQ Affirmation Email Marc at Marc@MarcAlanSchelske.com to get on his invite list for the weekly writing sessions at Slow Pour or the twice-monthly virtual co-writing sessions. Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube. More about My Conversation Partner It’s me. Hi. I’m the problem, it’s me. Marc Alan Schelske is a happily recovering fundamentalist praying for the restoration of all things. He writes and teaches about spiritual maturity, emotional growth, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. His books, including Walking Otherward, Journaling for Spiritual Growth, and The Wisdom of Your Heart, can be found at www.MarcAlanSchelske.com. Marc serves as the teaching elder at Bridge City Community Church in Milwaukie, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, where we work to keep all things, even Christianity, a bit weird. Find Marc Here Website: www.MarcAlanSchelske.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarcAlanSchelske Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marcalanscherlske/ Threads: https://www.threads.com/@marcalanschelske Today’s Sponsor The Writers Advance – A weekend to help writers write. November 13-16, 2025. For more information, see: www.TheWritersAdvance.com Transcription Marc Schelske 0:03 Hey, friends. I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth, following the way of Jesus. This is episode 60: Navigating Toward LGBTQ Affirmation (Or How I became an Affirming Pastor.) SPONSOR Today’s podcast is brought to you by The Writers Advance. I’m a writer (You probably know that) and I’m a big nerd about the writing process. That’s probably just a function of me being a big nerd about most everything I’m excited about. Part of that nerdery is that I’ve read all the best books about writing. I’ve taken a number of courses, and back in the day, I went to writers’ conferences regularly. In that time, I learned something that I’m going to offer you right now for free. By far the best way to learn to write is just to write. All those great resources don’t make writing happen. Reading books about writing isn’t writing. Sitting in giant conference centers listening to experts talk about their process isn’t writing. The only thing that really moves the needle is writing a lot of words. That’s why I host three ways for writers to build their skills by spending time writing. Most every Saturday morning, I head down to Slow Pour, a great coffee shop in Sellwood, Oregon, and I write for three or four hours, and I invite anyone in the area to join me. Then, twice a month, I host a virtual co-writing group where other writers and I gather by Zoom. We check in briefly, then we turn off our mics and we write for two hours. If either of those sounds up your alley, let me know, and I can include you on the invite list. However, the event that I host every year that makes the most difference is The Writers Advance. This is an annual four-day writers’ weekend that I have crafted to be exactly what writers need to push forward on their current project. It’s not about networking, or listening to experts speak, or desperately trying to get an agent or an editor to notice you. Nope. It’s about writing and reconnecting with why writing matters to you. I provide a creative and inspiring venue with great food and comfortable accommodations. We do readings. I bring coaches in who can help writers get over their current hurdles. I teach a couple of sessions about how to build a writing workflow that means you’ll keep writing for the long haul. But none of that is required. The only thing that’s required is that the folks who gather there write. You get hours and hours of uninterrupted time for just that. I’ve got regular attendees who come to this event, and they will write more over this weekend than they do in two or three months of their normal life. There are presently eight spots left for this year’s writer’s advance. It takes place November 13 to 16th. If you’re a writer longing to give your words your full attention, or if you love a writer and want to give them the most incredible gift ever. Then head over to the website, www.TheWritersAdvance.com, for more details about this event and to reserve a spot. INTRODUCTION I had an incredible opportunity in early June. At the very last minute, I was invited to fill an open faculty position at the Open Table Conference Summer School of Theology in Sun River, Oregon. They had a last-minute cancellation, and one very kind and thorough recommendation got me the invite. So, I got to spend the whole week with incredible people, spending each morning hearing great thinkers talk about a more beautiful gospel, and then spending each afternoon in rich conversation while enjoying restful, beautiful central Oregon. It really was a high point for me. I loved it. I taught two sessions. The first session was a dialogical group Bible study process through the foot washing scene in John 13. When Jesus stood to wash the disciples’ feet, he was doing something that the disciples and their whole culture considered shameful. He was acting beneath his station. That’s why Peter reacted so violently. He didn’t want to participate in Jesus’ shame. But Jesus didn’t consider it shameful. He considered it an example of who God is and how God relates to us. Now, I tell you that because that session is the foundation for what I’m about to share with you. I’m going to refer to that session at the beginning of what I share now, and if you want to dig into that conversation and understand a little bit more, I wrote that up and posted it on my blog. There’ll be a link on the screen, and there’ll be a link in the show notes. You can just go read that blog. Press pause now, go do that, and then come back. All right, so here we go. THE PRESENTATION I’d like you to hold in your mind our conversation about the foot washing scene in John 13, Jesus loving to the fullest by subverting the expectations of what it meant for him to be the Messiah, by serving and entering into the place of shame in order to do so, and then inviting us to follow his example. This is an understanding that has a wide, reaching application for our lives, in the way that we relate to the people around us, and now we’re going to talk about one particular application, how this perspective might apply to the church’s relationship to the LGBTQ community. Now, as I say this, I want to acknowledge that there may be some limbic system noise that starts to clang and gong for some of us. This is a fraught conversation, and I want to acknowledge the possibility of anxiety. Maybe someone listening is part of the LGBTQ community. If that’s you, you surely bear scars caused by Christians, and you aren’t here to have your life talked about like a problem to solve. It would make sense for you to feel anxious about hearing one more Christian pastor talk about this. Maybe someone else listening is fully resolved on the subject. Maybe you’re already fully affirming. It just seems obvious to you that Christ’s love is fully inclusive. And frankly, you get frustrated with Christians who just don’t agree with you. Certainly, someone else listening is fully committed to a traditional view of gender and sexuality. And it seems obvious to you that this is what Scripture says, and frankly, you get frustrated with Christians who just don’t get that. And so to both of you, so certain in your convictions, perhaps you’re feeling rising anxiety about whether this pastor is going to say the things you think need to be said. Then, there’s a good chance that someone else listening is unresolved on the question. You want to love like Jesus, and you suspect that includes loving gay and trans people. You also want to honor God, and you don’t want to abandon scripture in order to do that. So you’re feeling caught, if you’re feeling anxious for these reasons or any other reasons, I want to give you my commitment that I’m going to do my best in this presentation to use my words in a way that is at the very least respectful and hopefully, hopefully even life-giving. My commitment (for me) and my invitation (to you) is to hold this time and this conversation with respect, mutual care, and curiosity. Is that something we can

    46 min

  3. 05/20/2025

    How the Beatitudes Could Save the World and Us. (TAW059)

    Episode 059 – How the Beatitudes Could Save the World and Us. (With Dr. Bradley Jersak) An offhand comment by Dr. Jersak prompted this conversation. “We’re pushing back against the construction of a Christianity that’s the opposite of the Beatitudes. For those who don’t want to be susceptible to the lure of power-over Christianity, I recommend praying the Beatitudes every day . . . it is a furnace of discernment like none other.” Woah… In a world where Christian leaders and many of their followers are increasingly espousing structures of power-over, saying empathy is a sin, and even co-opting the language of “Godly Hate,”1 For instance, “Christians must recover the lost virtue of Hatred. If not, Christianity will survive, but the West will be finished.” – Pastor Joel Webbon, Twitter message, May 19, 2025. there is a real urgency to re-center our practice on Jesus’ teaching in the Beatitudes. Show Notes In this conversation, Dr. Bradley Jersak and I explore the urgent need for Christians to re-center themselves in the Beatitudes as a guide for spiritual growth, ethical living, and community engagement. The need for this has only increased with the rise of Power-over ideologies such as Christian Nationalism, and forms of Christianity that are denying the way of Jesus in their actions. Takeaways Praying the Beatitudes can lead to personal transformation. Kenosis, or self-emptying, is a key aspect of living out the Beatitudes. Christian nationalism and all forms of power-over ideology contradict the teachings of Jesus, and this can be most clearly seen in the Beatitudes. The Beatitudes call for a radical rethinking of patriotism and can counteract misguided theology. A commitment to praying the Beatitudes regularly will serve as a “furnace of discernment” for wise discernment of what is truly “the word of the Lord” in our lives. Recommended Resources The Ladder of the Beatitudes, by Jim Forest. Beatitudes: When Mountain Meets Valley, by Ron Dart. Are We Done Fighting: Building Understanding in a World of Hate and Division, by Matthew Legge. Downloadable “Furnace of Discernment” Beatitute Prayer PDF Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube. More about My Conversation Partner Dr. Bradley Jersak Bradley is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC. He currently serves as the Principal of St. Stephen’s University in New Brunswick, where he continues as the Dean and faculty member of SSU’s School of Theology & Culture. He also teaches peace studies courses with the Jim Forrest Institute. Through his books and seminars, Brad shares the good news that God is Love, perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world. Find Bradley Here Website: https://bradjersak.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradley.jersak Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradley.jersak/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/@bradley.jersak Today’s Sponsor YOU! Via your support of My Writing – After being nagged by a number of friends, I’ve opened a means for you to directly support my writing work. Making this podcast takes time and money, and it’s possible because people like you buy what I create. I’ve been asked how folks can support my writing when there’s no new book out. So, here it is: I’m opening up patron support. Instead of using Patreon (which takes a cut), I’ve set up a similar subscription system myself. Here are the tiers: LISTENER TIER (Free): Get my monthly-ish email newsletter, Apprenticeship Notes, and updates about new releases. Perfect if you want to keep up with my work but can’t commit financially. READER TIER ($5/month or $50/year): Includes the newsletter and access to a monthly Spiritual Life Virtual Round Table—about nine times a year. These are private gatherings with presentations and discussions on spiritual and theological topics, sometimes with special guests. The first is June 20th on “Mammon,” featuring Rev. Matt Tebbe. SPONSOR TIER ($12/month or $120/year): All previous benefits plus a free book from me each year—either my latest, one you missed, or a hand-picked recommendation. BENEFACTOR TIER ($40/month or $400/year+): All previous benefits, plus a spot on my Shareholder Team with access to an annual meeting where I share updates, goals, and invite your input on new projects. You’ll always be able to access my newsletter, podcast, and essays for free. But if you want to support my work further, now you can. Thank you! Transcription Marc Schelske 0:05 Hey, friends. I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth, following the way of Jesus. This is episode 59: “How the Beatitudes Could Save Us and The World.” SPONSOR Today’s podcast is made possible by, well, me. It’s me, hi. I’m the problem. It’s me. Most of the time, the sponsors of this podcast are just other things that I make and sell–my books, my writer’s retreat, events I’m doing, stuff like that. The reason why I list these as sponsors is because the truth is that making a podcast like this takes time and money, and the only reason I can do it is because people like you buy things that I make. Well, increasingly, there have been folks out there in my extended community who’ve asked me about how to support my writing when there isn’t a new book to buy. Frankly, I’ve avoided answering that question because of my own insecurities and fears. Who am I to ask for support for my work? But a few of you have leaned hard on me. So here we go. The sponsor today is me, my writing, all of my work to help people have a healthy inner life and spiritual journey following the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. For many of you, maybe most, the best way to support me is to hang around, right? To watch the podcast, to read the essays on my website, and to buy a book when one comes out. Don’t worry, a new one’s coming out in September. You’ll hear more about that soon. You’ll have a chance to get it. But if you’ve wanted to support my work outside of that, well, here’s your chance. I am opening up an invitation to patron support. Now, you may have encountered this through the website Patreon, which lots of creative people use. Well, Patreon, that service, they take between 8-12% of what people give, plus merchant processing fees, which is about 3%, so that’s a lot. When someone is giving you $20 to support you, giving 15% of that to the service that provides the connection, that’s a lot, and it doesn’t feel like good stewardship. So I’ve built something similar to Patreon, but on a system that takes only the merchant fees, the 3%. So what does this mean, especially if you don’t know what Patreon is? Well, simply put, you subscribe to support my work for a monthly or annual recurring fee. I get a donation from you that goes to basically buy time for me to do more of this work. And what do you get? Well, mostly, you get the satisfaction of knowing that your gift is allowing me more hours to write, where I don’t have to take side gigs to support my family. But also, there are some cool benefits. So here’s the tiers of my support system, then you can pick one that seems to make sense for you. The first is the Listener Tier. This level is free–no cost. You get my monthly (monthly-ish) email newsletter, Apprenticeship Notes, and you give me permission to email you when I have new things for sale, like a book. This is perfect for anyone who wants to keep up with my writing but isn’t in a place to commit to a monthly subscription fee. If you’re here right now listening to this podcast and you like what you’re hearing, you’re finding it helpful–that means you should be a Listener level subscriber at least. Now, if you want to support me financially, there are three options. The second tier is the Reader Tier. This level is $5 a month or $50 a year. You get my monthly-ish newsletter, just like the free tier, but you’ll also be invited to this new thing that I’m doing just for financial supporters. I’m hosting a monthly-ish Spiritual Life Virtual Round Table. So, monthly-ish again, about nine times a year, because I scale back in the summer, I’ll host a virtual gathering where I will present, or I’ll lead a discussion on a topic related to healthy inner life, spiritual life, or theology. The topics for these conversations will be drawn from the interest shown by suggestions made by supporters like you. So people who back at this level will get to suggest topics they’d like to discuss, and then I will do the work to prepare, and I’ll also try my best to find subject matter experts to join the conversation that may include professors, theologians, and authors of books, who can be in this conversation with us, guide us, answer our questions. Now, this event is intended to be small. Only supporters are going to be invited. That means everyone’s going to have the opportunity to be seen, to be heard, to ask their questions. This isn’t going to be available to the general public. It’s not going to be recorded or streamed to the public. It’s going to be a private conversation, which means it will be a great place for asking questions, tackling difficult issues, and maybe even getting in the room with an author or someone else that I invite to be a subject matter expert. So, the first one of these is coming up soon, June 20, and the topic will be Mammon. Mammon, that biblical word for the spiritual power of money. How can followers of Jesus deal with the spiritual power of money that seems to run our nation? The Reverend Matt Tebbe will be our special guest, walking us through that topic. He hosts the Gravity Commons podcast, along with some of his friends, and he is really interested in this topic. He

    50 min

  4. 03/07/2025

    Following Jesus in the Face of Political Panic, Christian Supremacy, and Creeping Fascism. (TAW058)

    Episode 058 – Following Jesus in the Face of Political Panic, Christian Supremacy, and Creeping Fascism. (With Susan Carson, Bradley Jersak, and Brian Zahnd.) We stand in a dire historical moment, and one of the questions that is swirling for many of us is about what it means to be a Christian right now. There are folks wearing the label Christian, many in good faith, who are endorsing things that seem so plainly unlike Christ. The chaos is swirling and it is all coming at us so fast that we are being overwhelmed. Because this is so important, I invited some friends to talk about this crisis, and how Other-centered, Co-suffering love can lead us. Show Notes In this conversation, motivated by the launch of my new book, Walking Otherward: Forty Meditations on Following Jesus’ Path of Other-centered, Co-suffering Love, Susan Carson, Dr. Bradley Jersak, and Brian Zahnd discuss how this path might help us face the moment. Takeaways Fear makes us susceptible to the temptation to use power-over as a way to try to get good things done. This temptation is the same that Jesus faced in the wilderness, and the church is facing it again today. Gathering in church communities committed to practicing the other-centered, co-suffering way is essential right now. Praying the Beatitudes, and becoming intimately familiar with the Sermon on the Mount will guard our hearts. Stay focused. Be Patience. Engage in one-on-one acts of care, service, and advocacy. Recommended Resources Postcards from Babylon: The American Church in Exile, by Brian Zahnd. When Everything’s On Fire: Faith Forged From the Ashes, by Brian Zahnd. Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News, by Brian Zahnd. A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel, by Dr. Bradley Jersak. A More Christlike Word: Reading Scripture the Emmaus Way, by Dr. Bradley Jersak. A More Christlike Way: A More Beautiful Faith, by Dr. Bradley Jersak. Rooted (In): Thriving in Connection with God, Yourself, and Others, by Susan Carson. The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire, by Alan Kreider. The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky “The Grand Inquisitor” Filmed performance on Youtube. The Ladder of the Beatitudes, by Jim Forest. Beatitudes: When Mountain Meets Valley, by Ron Dart. Are We Done Fighting: Building Understanding in a World of Hate and Division, by Matthew Legge. Direct support for Mercy Aiken, a peacemaker in Palestine. Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube. More about My Conversation Partners Susan Carson Susan is an author, speaker, podcaster, pray-er, and lifelong unlearner. She’s the founder and director of Roots&Branches Network, a listening and healing prayer ministry in Cincinnati, Ohio. With her team, she helps people encounter God in ways that transform and restore. Find Susan Here Website: https://www.susancarson.net/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/susanfcarson Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susancarsonauthor/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/@susancarsonauthor Dr. Bradley Jersak Bradley is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC. He currently serves as the Principal of St. Stephen’s University in New Brunswick, where he continues as the Dean and faculty member of SSU’s School of Theology & Culture. He also teaches peace studies courses with JFI.SSU.ca and is a regular Open Table Conference crew lecturer. Through his books and seminars, Brad shares the good news that God is Love, perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world. Find Bradley Here Website: https://bradjersak.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradley.jersak Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradley.jersak/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/@bradley.jersak Brian Zahnd Brian is the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. He is also a pastor-theologian who has authored many books. Brian is enthusiastic about music, literature, mountains, and long-distance pilgrimages. Find Brian Here Website: https://brianzahnd.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrianZahnd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brianzahnd/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/@brianzahnd Today’s Sponsor Walking Otherward – My new book! This is a 40-day devotional following the final weeks of Jesus’ life and inviting us to exchange our natural self-centered, ego-defending ambition for the other-centered, co-suffering way of Love. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:05 Hey, friends. I’m Marc Alan Schelske. This is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth, following the way of Jesus. This is episode 58: How Can Other-Centered, Co-suffering Love Provide a Way Forward in the Face of Political Panic, Christian Supremacy, and Creeping fascism. Okay, that is way too long of a title for a podcast episode. I’m gonna have to figure something else out. But anyway, that’s what we’re talking about. SPONSOR Today’s podcast is made possible by Walking Otherward. That is my new book, and it’s out. It’s in the wild. It can be ordered at bookstores. You can get it in all the book places, and it’s such a sigh of relief to finally see this thing out there living its own life. Today’s podcast is a conversation motivated by this book that was part of my online book launch party, so it seemed only right to name Walking Otherward as the sponsor for the podcast. So, who’s this book for? It’s for folks who suspect that there’s more to the way of Jesus than what most current versions of Western Christianity are offering. It’s for folks who have had enough of control and manipulation and self-righteous pontification. Jeff Mears, a friend of mine, called it a devotional for the deconstructing. He’s right, even though I would never have put it in those terms. But the deconstruction here is away from forms of faith that are about using power-over or using the Bible to exclude others and justify exploitation. Walking Otherward is a collection of forty-one short essays structured as a daily devotional that follows the gospel passages, narrating the final weeks of Jesus’ life as he heads toward the cross. With these scriptures, I’m asking the reader to reflect on our own attitude, how we see God, ourselves, and others. I’m inviting us to make a shift, to move away from self-centered, ego-defending ambition, toward Jesus’ way of other-centered, co-suffering love. I wrote this because I’ve seen a glimpse of a better way, and I want to invite you outside the gates managed by stingy religious gatekeepers, driven by fear. My friend, theologian Bradley Jerzak, calls this way a more beautiful gospel. Intrigued? Well, now you can get Walking Otherward: Forty Meditations on Following Jesus’ Path of Other-Centered Co-suffering Love in all the normal book places. You can learn a bit more about it, see endorsements, reviews, and even read a sample chapter at this website: www.walkingotherword.com. INTRODUCTION Today’s podcast episode is out of the normal pattern in several ways. First, what I’m about to share with you is an edited excerpt of a live online event I did a couple of weeks ago. This event was the online launch party for my new book, Walking Otherward. Now, book launch parties are supposed to be celebrations of the book, but I’d felt for some time that sort of party wasn’t right for this book. The world around us is a mess. Much of the church seems caught up in this fever dream of power, playing chaplain to a regime in my country that every day acts more and more autocratic. The most painful revelation has been the shocking number of my fellow Americans who seem excited about this shift. In this historic moment, the question of what it means to be Christian and how Christians can resist this shift is top of mind. So, instead of having a traditional rah-rah book launch, I invited some friends to have a conversation with me about this subject. So first, let me introduce you to the friends you will hear in this recording. Susan Carson is a friend of mine who served as the Launch Manager for this book. She and I met in our graduate program at St. Stephen’s University and connected over our hopes for a more life-giving way of being Christian. Susan is also an author, she’s a spiritual director, she leads a prayer and healing ministry in Cincinnati, Ohio called the Roots&Branches Network. The second friend you’ll hear is Pastor Brian Zahn. He’s been a long-time mentor of mine and is now a new friend. He’s the pastor of Word of Life Church in St Joseph, Missouri, and a public theologian. His writing has been deeply influential to me in the past few years and even formed the background to why I got started writing the book Walking Otherward. As luck or circumstances or God would have it, I had the opportunity to spend three weeks with him last spring on a study tour of Türkiye and Greece. The third voice you’ll hear is my friend, Dr Bradley Jersak. He’s a theologian, a teacher, a Reader in the Orthodox Church. Bradley’s writing is another deep influence of mine, and I had the distinct pleasure of having him be the supervisor for my master’s thesis. So, the question I asked my friends to discuss with me was this: How can other-centered, co-suffering love provide a way forward in the face of political panic, Christian supremacy, and creeping fascism? Now, before I turn you over to the recording, I have to mention this event was done via Zoom, and apparently, I did not understand how Zoom recording works. The audio throughout is excellent, but Zoom itself made many weird and unexpected decisions about who to focus on during the event, so I’ve done my best to edit the video so that it’s watchable. Learned a lot. So sorry for the less-than-ideal vide

    54 min

  5. 02/06/2025

    Empathy Isn’t a Sin; It’s Holy Dynamite (TAW057)

    Episode 057 – Empathy Isn’t a Sin; It’s Holy Dynamite (With Felicia Murrell) Once again, influential Christian leaders are declaring empathy a sin. One influential Reformed theologian calls empathy “Counterfeit compassion” and names it “the greatest rhetorical tool of manipulation in the 21st century.” For people whose central ethic is to love the neighbor as we love ourselves, this seems an odd hill to die on. Why is this happening? Well, when you look behind the scenes, the answer is pretty obvious. Empathy has the power to blow up hierarchical power dynamics. Show Notes In this conversation, we explore empathy, its significance in spiritual growth, and why certain Christian leaders (from a very particular theological perspective) are warning Christians away from empathy. Note: We had significant technical difficulties recording this, but the conversation was so good that I wanted to do my best to share it with you. The audio has been cleaned up as much as I can, and I have provided carefully edited captions on the video and a full transcription for you. Takeaways Empathy is about staying present to pain without being overwhelmed and actively bearing witness to others’ emotional experiences. Empathy differs from sympathy in that it connects us as equals. Empathy is essential for healthy human relationships. The accusation of empathy as a sin comes from hierarchical systems because empathy naturally opens the door to seeing how systems of domination and control are exploitative. Personal healing is necessary for developing empathy so that we can face our selves truthfully, but empathy moves beyond personal feelings into tangible action that changes the work around us, including the systems we live within. Empathy is a key aspect of following the way of Jesus. Mentioned Resources AND: The Restorative Power of Love in an Either/Or World (Felicia Murrell) Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience (Brené Brown) All About Love: New Visions (bell hooks) Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube. More about My Conversation Partner Felicia Murrell is a spiritual companion, speaker, certified master life coach, and former ordained pastor with over twenty years of church leadership experience. She’s an author and serves the publishing industry as a freelance copy editor. With a deep understanding of what it means to be human, Felicia is dedicated to empowering individuals to embrace who they already are and who Love is inviting them to be. Find Felicia Here Website: https://feliciamurrell.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/felicia.murrell.9 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hellofelicia_murrell/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hellofelicia_murrell Today’s Sponsor Walking Otherward – My new book! Please pre-order it now. This is a 40-day devotional following the final weeks of Jesus’ life and inviting us to exchange our natural self-centered, ego-defending ambition for the other-centered, co-suffering way love Love. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:05 Hey friends, I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 57. Empathy is Not a Sin; It’s Holy Dynamite. SPONSOR Today’s podcast is made possible by Walking Otherward. This is my new book. It’s due out in a couple of weeks. It’s landing on February 18. That means I’m up to my ears in Book Launch season. Look, I’m gonna keep this short. I want you to pre-order my book right now. Is this the right book for you? Well, here’s my pitch. You already know it’s possible to be a Christian and not be very much like Jesus. Whether through your own study or your spiritual intuition, you sense that following the way of Jesus ought to be transformational for you and for your world. The urgent drive of our time to always be moving upward and forward has taken its toll on you. You suspect an inward focus is necessary for personal healing and growth but wonder if that makes any real difference for others in the world around you. And you definitely don’t want to go backward, whether to past ways of thinking that were destructive or back to a world that is more hierarchical, violent, and exploitative. Perhaps you feel homeless spiritually and wonder which way you should go. The Gospel narrative of Jesus’ life suggests a path rather than the climb upward, or retreating backward, or withdrawing inward. Jesus’ path invites us to walk otherward. Walking Otherward is a 40-day devotional that follows Jesus in the final weeks leading to his crucifixion. Each reflection invites you to take on Jesus’ attitude, exchanging self-centered ego-defending ambition for other-centered, co-suffering love. So that’s the pitch. If it sounds like a good fit for you, then please pre-order the book today. It’s available in ebook and paperback in all the book places. You can find all the links to those places at www.WalkingOtherward.com. INTRODUCTION if you’re on social media and you pay attention to the religious discourse there, in the past couple of months, you may have seen a surge in posts and memes arguing over an odd controversy. The controversy? The accusation that many Christians–apparently deceived by the radical left or someone– are falling into the sin of empathy. Now, if that sounds strange to you, that probably means you are consuming an appropriate and healthy amount of social media. But what’s even more strange than this accusation is that it’s not new. In 2019, it first gained momentum when Joe Rigney, a prominent reformed pastor and theologian, wrote an article on the Desiring God website called, “The Enticing Sin of Empathy: How Satan Corrupts Through Compassion.” He was making the point that empathy is really the emotional fusion between your emotions and someone else’s emotions, which will keep you from living in accordance with the truth. Even worse, Rigney posed that empathy was a tool for emotional manipulation. He wrote, “Rightly used, empathy is a power tool in the hands of the weak and suffering. By it, we can so weaponize victims that they (or those who hide behind them) are indulged to every turn, without regard for whether such indulgence is wise or prudent or good for them.” The topic came up again in 2021 when a well-known fundamentalist pastor, James White, wrote a scathing blog about the problem of empathy for Christians. These are his words. “So what is the problem with empathy today? We are, in fact, told to weep with those who weep, but that assumes those who weep have a reason for weeping that is in line with God’s revelation.” So I guess we’re gatekeeping grief?! The topic resurfaced this year as Christians, in response to the elections and government policy discussions, have been debating the best way to relate to immigrants and the poor and trans people. So Joe Rigney comes back onto the scene, adding fuel to the fire with a brand new book that came out this year called The Sin of Empathy: Compassion and Its Counterfeits, where he claims that empathy is the greatest rhetorical tool of manipulation in the 21st century, and suggests that empathy is a satanic counterfeit to holy, Godly love. Okay, I’ll be upfront here. I think this claim is not only absurd, I think it’s dangerous for the church and for society at large. I wanted to talk with somebody about it, and it seemed to me that a good conversation partner would be Felicia Murrell. Felicia is a former pastor, current spiritual director, author, and speaker. I wanted to talk with Felicia specifically because I recently read her book, AND: The Restorative Power of Love in an Either/Or World. This book is stunningly good. It weaves comfortably between memoir, essay, poetry, and prophetic challenge. The principle at the heart of the book is that the only thing that can carry us through the chaos of the moment we find ourselves in is love. So I asked Felicia to chat with me about this controversy; I started by asking her to define empathy and then to reflect on why it seems that this word is becoming a scare word for some folks, Felicia Murrell 5:34 Empathy is staying present to pain, that of my own and that of others, without being overwhelmed by it. Empathy is actively bearing witness to the emotional experience of other people without taking it on. It’s not delving into despair or pity or anguish. It literally is what I would call mirroring. A question that I ask myself often is, “Can I reach back into my own memory bank and connect to something in my lived experience?” If that answer is no, because maybe I don’t have a similar experience, empathy listens and it believes the experience of other people, even when our experiences don’t match. An example would be, say, someone is talking to me and they’re expressing about being lonely. Can I remember a time in my own life when I experienced this? Only not to center myself in the conversation and take over and start talking about when I was lonely and I can relate, but just to have that feeling, to know inside, to remember what it felt like to be lonely, and to allow that feeling to be a place of connection and understanding. Renee Brown offers us this really powerful question to consider. She says, “How can I touch within myself something that helps me identify and connect with what this person might be feeling?” Marc Schelske 7:27 I like how you pointed out that we’re reaching into that resource of our own experience, not to generate relating words, like that common thing where you have this motivation to tell a similar story, right? “I know exactly what you’re feeling. This is what happened to me,” and now you’re off and running on three or five minutes of your own story, but instead to reach into the resource of y

    39 min

  6. 11/26/2024

    When the Marginalized Are Our Prophets (TAW056)

    Episode 056 – When the Marginalized Are Our Prophets (With Jenai Auman) The person who truly understands “what’s going on” in any room is often not the one in charge. Instead, it’s usually those on the margins—individuals whose lives and survival depend on recognizing the hidden structures of power—who see things most clearly. In her new book, Jenai Auman shares her experiences as a Filipina-American woman in the Evangelical church in the American South and challenges us to adopt a more inclusive way of being. Show Notes Othered: Finding Belonging with the God Who Pursues the Hurt, Harmed & Marginalized The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Johnson, et. al. Lisa Oakley, UK Spiritual Abuse Researcher Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube. More about My Conversation Partner Jenai Auman is a Filipina-American writer, artist, & storyteller living in Houston, TX with her husband and two boys. Drawing on her years of church ministry experience, education, and trauma-related training, she writes on healing, hope, and the way forward for those who have experienced spiritual abuse and religious trauma. Her work has been featured on Christianity Today’s Better Samaritan Blog, She Reads Truth, and The Fallow House. Her people are those who feel “othered” and unwelcome in traditional Christian spaces. As a trauma recovery-focused spiritual director/companion, she also serves as a story-holder & space-maker. Find Jenai at https://www.jenaiauman.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jenaiauman Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenaiauman Today’s Sponsor Not Just One More Thing: Spiritual Growth for Busy People – a ten-week on-demand course to help you move into a practical spirituality that fits into your busy life. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:00 Hey friends, I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 56: When the Marginalized Are Our Prophets. THIS WEEK’S SPONSOR Today’s podcast is made possible by Not Just One More Thing: Spiritual Growth for Busy People. Is it possible to grow spiritually in the midst of a busy life? You’re a follower of Jesus, but you’re starting to wonder if you’re really following? That’s not a question about belief; it’s a question about trajectory. Are you really going somewhere? And not just to heaven someday, maybe, whatever that means, but now. You want to grow and mature spiritually, and that’s why you listen to this podcast. But your life is full, and it’s fast-paced. You want to slow down, but you’re not sure how. Life is busy and full of obligations and demands time and energy. And you can’t opt out of most of that stuff. When you think about spiritual maturity, you think of maybe retired people who have hours to sit around reading their Bibles or volunteering at church and praying, or maybe monks who live in a quiet cloister where they can think big thoughts about God all day long, but that’s not your life. Do you wonder if it’s even possible to grow spiritually in the midst of the busy life you have? Well, it is. Being spiritual when you’re on vacation or when you have a lot of free time on your hands is easy. That’s when you have all the time in the world for reading and reflecting and journaling, engaging in deep conversations, and worshiping. Anyone can do that. But keeping your spiritual head above water when life is busy is the real test. Not Just One More Thing: Spiritual Growth for Busy People is an on-demand video course that I wrote after I saw that I kept answering the same kinds of questions when I was talking to folks as a pastor. So it’s a 10-week course that will help you take small practical steps to integrate your spiritual life into your regular life. Because the last thing you need is a bunch of homework. So I wrote this course to fit into a busy life. It’s one short video each week, less than 10 minutes long, and then five simple, doable experiments that you can fit into your real life for that week. Some are activities to try, some are questions to journal on, some are links to other short readings that can help, and you can work through all of this in 10 to 20 minutes a day if you follow along for five days a week. And it’s just 10 bucks. I invite you to invest this time, a few minutes a day, five days a week, for 10 weeks. Stick with this. and you will have the tools that will help you experience a more intentional, connected sense of God’s presence, even in the middle of a very busy life. To see more about what’s included or register at www.Live210.com/busy. INTRODUCTION In any room, who’s the person most likely to understand what’s really going on? Who sees the hidden relational dynamics, the power issues, and the emotional triggers first? Is it the person in charge? The one who’s used to getting what they need? Or is it possible that it’s the person whose life depends on seeing these things? You’ve probably heard me talk about the developing direction of my theology, which I summarize by calling it the way of other-centered co-suffering love. One aspect of this perspective is that it challenges me to listen carefully to the experiences of people who are not like me. Most of my mentors, teachers, pastors, and theologians I was encouraged to read look a lot like I do in one dimension or another. White, male, middle class, many of them American or at least English speaking. And I’ve come to understand that my experience and what I’ve learned from these voices is not the only experience; it’s not the canonical experience. I’ve lived and I’ve worked inside organizations largely structured for people like me, assuming that our view was the right way. But this created an enormous blind spot where we disregarded people with different experiences, especially when they contradicted or challenged what was comfortable for us. A book I read recently that helped me in thinking about all of this is called Othered: Finding Belonging with a God Who Pursues the Hurt, Harmed, and Marginalized. Janai Auman is a Filipina-American raised in the American South. She initially found welcome in the Evangelical Church. Her passion led her into leadership, but as she was drawn deeper into the ministry machine, she experienced how her value to the community was really based on conformity. And so when she asked for respect as a biracial Filipino woman when she pointed out issues in the system that were a problem, not just for her, but for others, the response was harsh. She violated the expectation that she would be a quiet worker supporting the male leaders. She was asking folks to stretch in ways that were new and uncomfortable for them. She was challenging a controlling hierarchy that others in the community took for granted. Ultimately, that system and those in charge had no room for her, and she was forced out. This painful experience and the long recovery work she went through, as a result, led her to focus on how the Church can be more welcoming and can avoid doing harm, partly by listening to those in the margins. There’s this dynamic in Jenai’s story that I’ve seen in many corners of the Church. Here’s a way to think about it. When a person, especially a child, has to fight for their basic needs, they learn intuitively what they must in order to survive. They become experts in reading the culture of their family or their community. The same dynamic functions in larger groups, communities, churches, and even whole cultures. Folks in the margins often see things about the majority culture that insiders cannot see as quickly or as easily. You see, for their own survival, folks in the margins have to become PhD students of the majority culture. In this book Othered, Jenai wrote, “When we ask our congregations to read their Bibles and the stories of our spiritual ancestors, it should come as no surprise that many students of scripture become well versed in distinguishing Christlikeness from the corrupt forms of faith that are often labeled good and right today. And when these students see the schism between the character of Jesus and the character of the church, when they ask questions and speak to the disparity, they become prophets. They are those who have the boldness to say, this is not the way of Jesus.” So I asked Jenai to talk about the ways she sees people on the margins — those who’ve been hurt, women, people of color, LGBTQ people — speaking as prophets to the majority church. THE INTERVIEW Jenai Auman (06:51) Hmm. Yeah. I think prophets are ultimately those who speak the truth of the Word of God and those who point to the corruption happening within God’s people. That’s what we see in the OT prophets and how they were reminding people of the goodness of God and why the things that are the way they are today don’t have to be that way. We’re actually called to something more. And I do think that people on the margins can have that kind of insight. So, by that, I mean folks who are marginalized in our cultures for any reason. People can be marginalized not only for racial status or ethnicity or the language they speak. They can also be marginalized for not having the right amount of education, quote-unquote, the right amount. They can also be marginalized for having the wrong address, for growing up on the wrong side of the tracks, for being a low-income family, and for not wearing certain things. Think of middle school, you know, like the tables at middle school and how cliques and little things form. Marc Schelske (07:36) Mm. Right, right. Jenai Auman (07:55) Folks can be marginalized for any reason, and I think that there is wisdom for those who have lived in the margins for a long time, in that they can look from the outside in. They can actually see how a mach

    50 min

  7. 09/18/2024

    A Better Place Than Here (TAW055)

    Episode 054 – A Better Place Than Here (With Jennifer Knapp) What would you learn if you had the opportunity to go back and revisit your spiritual journey of twenty-five years ago? What if that experience happened in community, with folks who were there with you, when it happened? What would you learn? How are you different? What losses and what growth would you notice? The release of Kansas 25, a re-recording of her award-winning album, Kansas, gave singer songwriter, Jennifer Knapp, just that experience. Show Notes Get Kansas 25 Digital, CD & Vinyl Streaming on all major services. Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube. More about My Conversation Partner Jennifer Knapp is a Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter, author, speaker, and advocate whose two-decade career has significantly impacted the music industry. With over one million albums sold from her first three releases—”Kansas” (1998), “Lay It Down” (2000), and “The Way I Am” (2001)—Knapp achieved Gold certification for “Kansas” and earned four Dove Awards along with two Grammy nominations. Originating from Kansas, she has performed globally alongside artists like Jars of Clay and participated in the Lilith Fair Tour in 1999 and 2010. Known for her poignant exploration of human experiences and spirituality, Knapp took a seven-year hiatus in 2002, returning with the album “Letting Go” in 2010, which debuted at No. 73 on the Billboard Hot 200 Chart. Beyond music, she is a pioneer in LGBTQ+ advocacy within Christian communities, being the first major artist to openly discuss her identity, which sparked national dialogue and led to appearances on platforms like Larry King Live and TEDx. In 2012, she founded Inside Out Faith, a non-profit organization advocating for LGBTQ+ rights in faith contexts. Recently, she completed a master’s degree in theological studies at Vanderbilt Divinity School, reinforcing her commitment to social justice through music and advocacy. Jennifer Knapp’s diverse talents and dedication to inclusivity continue to inspire audiences worldwide. Find Jenn at https://jenniferknapp.com Facebook: JenniferKnappMusic Instagram: @JenniferKnappMusic Today’s Sponsor The Apprenticehip Notes Newsletter – Monthly-ish writing just for you on spiritual growth in the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:00 Hey, friends, I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth, following the way of Jesus. This is episode 55: A Better Place Than Here. THIS WEEK’S SPONSOR Today’s podcast is made possible by The Writers Advance. I’m a writer. I love supporting writers. Five years ago, I created The Writer’s Advance. It’s exactly what I needed–A writing weekend that has been crafted to be precisely what writers need to push forward their current project. It’s not about networking or listening to experts speak or trying desperately to get an agent or editor to notice you. Nope. It’s about writing and reconnecting with why writing matters to you. At the end of every writing weekend, I send all the participants an anonymous survey to get feedback so that I can improve the experience. You can read their words on the event website, but I wanted to just read a couple of their comments to you right now, because they really tell the story. This is an anonymous feedback from the retreat two years ago. “This was an amazing weekend. The hosting was on target. The venue was peaceful and offered more than I expected. I loved the pacing. Marc is a great host and guide, and provides just the right amount of encouragement and accountability. So looking forward to the next one.” Here’s another. This is a comment about last year’s event. “This weekend reenergized my commitment to my writing craft. It was an excellent blend of accountability, flexibility, creativity and guidance. I felt supported as a human and a writer the whole time I was there.” One last one. This is from Tara Rolstad, a professional speaker who has attended The Writer’s Advance multiple times. Now, she won’t be there this November, because she is going to be busy launching her new book, a book that came to life at the writer’s advance! This is what she said. “I’ve come to see The Writer’s Advance as a gift I can’t afford not to give myself. I got more work done this weekend than I have in months, and to do it in a gorgeous, peaceful, comfortable location in the company and support of smart, quality people? Invaluable! I’m deeply grateful.” Maybe that is the sort of thing you need, or maybe you love a writer and want to give them an incredible gift. Well, the next Writer’s Advance is just around the corner, November 7 – 10, and registration closes on October 5. So I would love to see you there and support you and your project. All your questions are answered on the website. What are the accommodations like? How much does it cost? What’s the food like, and can they handle special dietary needs? Yes, they absolutely can. All that at www.thewritersadvance.com for more details. I hope to see you there. INTRODUCTION In the late 90s, I was a fresh-faced youth pastor with a guitar, doing all the things that line of work requires. Youth group events, silly games and small group meetings at Denny’s, and leading energetic songs with hand motions, planning summer camps and passionately preaching the gospel, all with the hope that kids might have an encounter with Jesus. And I remember in 1998, an album came onto the Christian music scene that just captured my mind. It was called Kansas. It was the debut album of a young singer songwriter named Jennifer Knapp. The tracks are fantastic, but what caught my attention most were the lyrics. Outside maybe two other musicians I had never heard Christian songs that felt this honest to me. There was a yearning I felt in the lyrics. In one song, Whole Again, she said, “If I give my life, if I lay it down / can you turn this life around, around / Can I be made clean by this offering / of my soul? Can I be made whole again?” There was this sense of being drawn by Jesus and at the same time feeling in exile. Another song, Refine Me, says “You’re my God and my father / I’ve accepted your son / but my soul feels so empty now / What have I become?” I’d felt that. I’d done all the things I was supposed to do, and yet many of the things my church promised me weren’t happening. What was going on? Knapp’s songs contained authentic declaration of real struggles. Sometimes those struggles were internal feelings of inadequacy, even sinfulness. Other times, those struggles were with the accepted preconceptions of Christian culture. In her song, In The Name, she wondered honestly, “To each his own / won’t lead you home / and probably never will.” That hit hard. The whole album carried this deep sense of standing on the edge of something bigger, and that something felt like the presence of God too me. I followed Jennifer’s next few releases, and then in 2010 she just disappeared, at least from the perspective of my small Christian world. What happened? Well, Jennifer came out, and the Christian music industry that had celebrated her, and the Christian community that had commended her thought and bought her concert tickets just didn’t have room for a Christian musician who was openly gay. In the 14 years since, so much has happened. Jennifer found new community. She had to. She found new fans. She had to. She got on with her life. She found a partner. She wrestled with what it means to have faith and have had a real experience with Jesus, and then, at the same time to have been excluded from community by some of Jesus followers. And then a couple of years ago, the idea surfaced for her to re-record her seminal album, Kansas. The support that welled up for this project was, I think, beyond Jenn’s expectations. She did it, and that album is now available. It’s called Kansas 25 and I’ve been listening to this album over and over since it came out, and it has been such an interesting experience for me. The lyrics of the song are the same, the arrangements are similar, but I’m listening as someone who has spent twenty-five years going deeper in my pursuit of Jesus in the way that some characterize as deconstruction. In the same way, the songs are also being sung by an artist with twenty-five years more life experience, and those years include pain and joy, exclusion, new community, letting go of old and unhelpful theology and embracing new things that are life giving. And so for me, as I was listening to this album, those songs, they just hit so differently with the weight of twenty-five years more lived experience and more theological exploration. As I realized what was happening in me as a listener, I thought, “Man, I would love to talk with Jennifer about what happened for her as she did this.” What was it like to re-record these songs, what was it like to face who she was as a young singer, a young writer, and what did she learn about her own spiritual development? Well, I reached out and I asked her, and she said, Yes! Jen’s official bio says she’s a Grammy nominated singer songwriter, author, speaker and advocate known for her musical talents and commitment to social causes. With a rich history spanning over two decades, Knapp has left an indelible mark on the music industry. Her career includes the remarkable achievement of selling over a million albums with her first three releases, the Gold Certified Kansas (1998), Lay it Down (2000), and The Way I Am (2001). Alongside this commercial success, Knapp has been honored with four Dove Awards and garnered two Grammy nominations. I started my conversation with Jen by asking her what it felt like when she discovered that there was this w

    1h 11m

  8. 10/11/2023

    Knowing the Past to Make a Better Future (TAW054)

    Episode 054 – Knowing the Past to Make a Better Future (With Sarah Sanderson) Do you know the hidden history of the place where you live? If we want to be part of God’s work of bringing restoration and liberation, we can’t ignore what’s happened in the past. Telling this truth is the only way to get to healing. Show Notes Get Sarah’s book: The Place We Make: Breaking the Legacy of Legalized Hate Other Books Mentioned: Reparations: A Christian Call for Repentance and Repair by Duke Kwon & Greg Thompson The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism by Jemar Tisby Dear White Peacemakers: Dismantling Racism with Grit and Grace by Osheta Moore Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode. You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube. More about My Conversation Partner Sarah L. Sanderson is a writer, speaker, and teacher. Her writing has appeared in PBS Newshour, Blackpast, Christianity Today, and various other journals. She’s a thoughtful human, a justice-minded Christian, and a skilled writer. Find Sarah at www.SarahLSanderson.com Threads: @sarahlsandersonwriter Facebook: sarah.sanderson Instagram: @sarahlsandersonwriter Today’s Sponsor The Apprenticehip Notes Newsletter – Monthly-ish writing just for you on spiritual growth in the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. Transcription Marc Schelske 0:00 Do you know the hidden history of the place where you live? If we want to be part of God’s work to bring restoration and liberation, we can’t ignore what’s happened in the past, as much as we’d like to. Telling this truth is the only way to get to healing. Hey, friends, I’m Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 54. Knowing the past to make a better future. THIS WEEK’S SPONSOR Before we start, I’d like to tell you about Apprenticeship Notes. Apprenticeship Notes is my new email newsletter. What is this? Why should you subscribe? Why on earth would you want one more newsletter in your inbox? I’m glad you asked. Social media has just stopped working well for many people. Our social media feeds used to be spaces where we had some control. We could choose to follow people who are interesting to us. We could connect with friends, we could learn from the experience and wisdom of other people. For well more than 10 years, my social media feeds, particularly Twitter, were a significant benefit to me, especially as a writer. But nowadays, in most cases our social media feeds are filled with ads, sponsored posts that are ads but don’t look like ads, and influencers trying to sell us on their latest master course. And even when we find and follow the people we want to hear more from, the black-box algorithms determine whether or not we get to see what they have to say. And usually what the algorithm shows us is just stuff that gets us ramped up. That means more anger, more division. It’s a mess. I’ve been slowly transitioning away from using social media as the main avenue for communicating about my writing. It’s really scary. I can’t even express to you how big of a change this is. At one point I had 35,000 followers on Twitter, I could reliably post a new blog and around a thousand people would see it. But that’s not true any longer and it hasn’t been for a while. And so I decided to begin building a different kind of space where I could write, encourage people, and serve folks who want to grow spiritually and value the writing that I do. The first step of this new plan is my newsletter. It’s called Apprenticeship Notes because the spiritual life, following the way of Jesus, is something you learn by doing. This newsletter comes out monthly. OK, honestly, monthly-ish, probably about nine to 10 times a year. So what will you find if you subscribe? Well, each edition starts with Today’s Note, a short reflection on some aspect of the spiritual life and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. And this piece will be written just for folks who subscribe, I won’t publish it anywhere else. The only way to read it is going to be to subscribe and read it in your email inbox. But subscribing is free, and it’s easy. And then in addition to Today’s Note, the newsletter will include a link to my latest blog with additional commentary, thoughts that didn’t make it into the blog, a link to my latest podcast with insider information, further reflections that I didn’t include in the public episode, and some recommended practice for your spiritual vitality. This might be a book to read or a journaling prompt to respond to or some activity that you can try. I spend time crafting this newsletter so that every part of it is intentional, thoughtful, and most importantly, worth your time. If that interests you, you could subscribe on my website, or you can go to www.MarcOptIn.com. And there’s a couple other benefits for you if you subscribe. First, I’m assuming that subscribers are people that are interested in my writing. So I will turn to those people to subscribers first, for writing feedback, beta readers, and early access opportunities when I have something new. I have a new devotional that I’m writing that’s slated for release in the spring and it’s almost ready for beta readers. And so that invitation is going to go to my subscribers. So if you want to participate in my writing in that way, you’ve got to subscribe. Second, I’m giving away a short little ebook that you get for free as a subscriber. It’s called The Anchor Prayer: A Prayer and Process for Remaining Grounded in a Chaotic World. It’s short–70 pages–but I think you’ll find it encouraging and helpful. You’ll get that as a free PDF ebook when you subscribe. So that’s my invitation. subscribe to my newsletter. Get fresh, encouraging writing to support your spiritual vitality. Get content that comes from the perspective of an inclusive, hospitable, and generous Christian theology. And support a writer, all in a space where there’s no algorithm determining whether or not you get to see this and no internet trolls. Seems like a good idea, right? Subscribe at my website www.MarcAlanSchelske.com or at www.MarcOptIn.com. About eight minutes down the street from my house is the historic main street of Oregon City. Oregon City is the town at the end of the Oregon Trail. For certain Americans in the mid 1800s, Oregon City was a symbol of hope. It meant a new start, the possibility of land and work, a place to build your family and a future. That vision was so compelling that somewhere between 300,000 and half-a-million people traveled the Oregon Trail in about a five year period. And that vision lies at the heart of how Americans and Oregonians see themselves. Hearty, creative people willing to work hard to succeed. People who will pack up all their earthly belongings and head west across a continent, just to give their families a better chance. This is part of what many of us think it means to be American. But Oregon City, that city of hope, is also the town where, in 1851, a black innkeeper named Jacob Vanderpool was tried and convicted explicitly for the crime of being a black man. Yep, Oregon. The lovely state where I live was founded as a whites-only state. The Oregon Territory had a law banning black people from remaining in the territory, and later the constitution of Oregon expanded on this with an exclusion clause that did two things. It banned slavery in the territory, but it also prohibited black people from living there. That clause remained in the Constitution until 1926. When I look around at the state that I live in, I first see the beautiful trees, and the overwhelming beauty of the Columbia Gorge, and the rich, vibrant farmland of the Willamette Valley. That’s all easy to see. But for some of us–people who look like me–it can be easy to overlook that there are hardly any black people here. Officially, the 2020 Census reported that only 2% of the population of Oregon identified as Black or African American, and almost all of those live in a single county in one city. This is not an accident, the stark reality of that matters. There are folks here–I count myself among them–who believe that the way of Jesus requires an open invitation without discrimination, and that Jesus’ other-centered way leads us to participate in restoration and liberation in our world. But to do that, we need to understand why our world is the way that it is. So, all that’s why I found Sarah Sandersons new book, The Place We Make, so compelling and helpful. Sarah is a neighbor of mine; she lives a few minutes from me. In her beautifully written book, she researches the story of Jacob Vanderpool, that innkeeper who was exiled from Oregon because he was black (and also so that a white man, another innkeeper could eliminate his business competition). During Sarah’s research, she discovered more about how this happened, how similar things happened to the native people who lived on the very land where Oregon City now stands, and even how her own family was involved. Many of us (most of us, maybe?) have long since acknowledged the harrowing and unjust history that lies behind the mythology of our country. Many of us genuinely want to be part of building a more just community. But those big ideas can quickly become abstract, and as long as they stay abstract, it’s tough to imagine concrete steps we can take to move things forward. Sarah’s book grounds this history in real people and real places. Most of the names I recognize. I’ve stood in many of the places. And as I read, I found the abstractions of this enormous problem dissolving in the local details. I suspect that every community across America could use a book like this. Sara’s goal in this book is not to instill shame, it’s to uncover th

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