Melody or Witchcraft

Kathryn Petruccelli

Conversations with today's poets and writers about Emily Dickinson and about the scope and sources of creative influence and the relevance of the past. Guests choose a Dickinson poem and one of their own to read. kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com

Episodes

  1. 5D AGO

    Barbara Mossberg: Unknowing

    If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes. Dr. Barbara Mossberg has led an Emily Dickinson-infused life for 77 years, writing poetry since age 6 in the now-burned Altadena, California foothills, and publishing poetry and criticism since age 12; her first book was Emily Dickinson: When a Writer Is a Daughter, 1982, named by Choice Outstanding Academic Book of the Year. In 1986 she co-founded the Emily Dickinson International Society when she was serving in a federal appointment as U.S. Scholar in Residence for USIA (U.S. State Department), American Studies Specialist. As a dramatist and actor, she has written “Flying with Emily Dickinson,” about her career of lecturing on Dickinson in over 25 countries as a Fulbrighter and cultural diplomat. California laureate/Poet in Residence for Pacific Grove (CA), and author of two recent books of memoir poetry, one organized around Emily Dickinson, she is Professor of Practice in Environmental Humanities, Clark Honors College, University of Oregon. A little Madness in the Spring Is wholesome even for the King, But God be with the Clown – Who ponders this tremendous scene – This whole Experiment of Green – As if it were his own! Natural History Does Not Include My Plans to Fly (revised title: “Don’t Have Bones”)Barbara Mossberg I don’t know what I expected,In this Museum of Natural HistoryWhich turns out to be death.Once it flew.A city block of bones--Mementos:Mortal antiques,Stuffed buffalo,Mangy remnants--More, and more.Continent to continent, onCanoes, sailboats, rafts,Room after room,Always to meet the same doom, the roarOf the eyes of the hunter, silence of skins.Death’s clutter—I could drown in baskets, bins,Thousands of yearsHere as brown triangles,Some poor lady’s time.Oh, her time!In stifling caves on the cliffs,On the ice, confining plains.Silenced remains.No. None of this was real.Not I.I deny a history of skeletons.I don’t have bones.No spine that saysIf you live, you die.Get me out of here.There are artifacts--but I own a private evolution.“Natural History”Does not tell my story,My skin new and fresh.This is my time now, my baskets, my happiness,The gloryOf my mysterious flesh. Dr. Mossberg’s book is Clown Cantos: Everything is Alive in its Own Way, Singing Writers/people/works mentioned: Dante’s Divine Comedy Ian Chillag’s Radiotopia podcast “Everything is Alive” Dolly Parton’s “Everything is Beautiful in Its Own Way” Ralph Waldo Emerson (Emerson was a guest on more than one occasion at the Evergreen’s — Emily’s brother’s home next door to hers.) Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye Ralph Ellison’s The Invisible Man (Ernest) Hemingway Gertrude Stein Pablo Neruda Rumi Dickinson poems mentioned: I dwell in Possibility I’m Nobody! Who are you? I’ll tell you how the Sun rose To be alive is Power Recorded in December 2025. (Apologies for the occasional imbalances in volume levels in this episode. I was unable to completely resolve these glitches in the recording, but have made changes since to prevent them in future episodes.) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    38 min
  2. MAR 2

    Katie Farris: faith & fierce questioning

    If you’re reading this somewhere other than Substack, these notes will be abridged and photos will not appear. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images, correct poetry formatting, and regular notices of new episodes. Katie Farris’s recent poems & translations appear in Granta, Poetry, and The New York Times. Her book, Standing in the Forest of Being Alive (Alice James, 2023) was shortlisted for the 2023 TS Eliot Prize. The Brain — is wider than the Sky —For — put them side by side —The one the other will containWith ease — and You — beside —The Brain is deeper than the sea —For — hold them — Blue to Blue —The one the other will absorb —As Sponges — Buckets — do —The Brain is just the weight of God —For — Heft them — Pound for Pound —And they will differ — if they do —As Syllable from Sound — Finishing Emily Dickinson, First Deacon in William Blake’s Church of the Marriage of Heaven and Hell, in the Oncologist’s Waiting RoomKatie Farris Oh, Emily, goodbye!We met in February and parted in July— I meetyour sweet velocity in every thing that flies— in moteand star and sphere—in bird and phosphorus of God! Oblique, you preached obliquity—your body, steeple for the Church of Mystery— your bell rings on, beyond. Concepts mentioned in the interview with Katie: “The Houghton” is the Houghton Library at Harvard which houses many original Dickinson materials – both poetic and from the Homestead “The ‘Daisy’ part of Dickinson” – Dickinson sometimes wrote about herself in a way that show her as small or submissive. For example, she references herself in her Master Letters as “Daisy” and, for example, says of Daisy “who bends her smaller life to his.” The Master Letters are three likely unsent letters of intense ardor to an unknown “Master.” “those two photographs (of Dickinson) and that’s it” – Besides the one authenticated photograph that everyone will have seen – a 16-year-old Emily, a second photograph surfaced some years back. You can see both and read about them here. Ballad meter Ars poetica “‘undashed’ versions of the poems” – The first books published of Dickinson’s work were edited to exclude her unique punctuation. Those versions sometimes still surface. Other Dickinson poems mentioned: A narrow Fellow in the Grass The Popular Heart is a Cannon first— It came at last but prompter Death (which includes the line “And his metallic Peace—”) People mentioned: Cristanne Miller (who edited the newest complete works of Dickinson’s that Katie read in full. Miller’s book is titled, Emily Dickinson’s Poems As She Preserved Them.) Annie Dillard Edgar Allan Poe Sylvia Plath William Blake and his book, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell Brenda Shaughnessy and her book, The Octopus Garden Gertrude Stein Ani DiFranco and her song “Fuel” Hélène Cixous, Three Steps on the Ladder of Writing Clarice Lispector Fanny Burney Recorded in November 2025. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    39 min
  3. FEB 23

    Jennifer Franklin: 'I've stopped being Theirs —'

    Jennifer Franklin is a poet, professor, and editor whose lastest book is If Some God Shakes Your House (Four Way Books, 2023). Her work has been commissioned by the Metropolitan Museum of Art and her awards include a Pushcart Prize, a NYFA/City Artist Corp grant, and residencies from the T.S. Eliot Foundation and Café Royal Cultural Foundation. Her publications include The Paris Review, The Nation, poets.org, and “Poetry in Motion” from Poetry Society of America. She leads manuscript revision workshops and teaches in Manhattanville’s MFA Program. I’m ceded – I’ve stopped being Theirs – The name They dropped upon my face With water, in the country church Is finished using, now, And They can put it with my Dolls, My childhood, and the string of spools, I’ve finished threading – too – Baptized, before, without the choice, But this time, consciously, Of Grace – Unto supremest name – Called to my Full – The Crescent dropped – Existence’s whole Arc, filled up, With one – small Diadem. My second Rank – too small the first – Crowned – Crowing – on my Father’s breast – A half unconscious Queen – But this time – Adequate – Erect, With Will to choose, or to reject, And I choose, just a Crown – As AntigoneJennifer Franklin I’m all done being nice. It hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Since I was young, I gave everything away—milk money, homework, adoration. Everyone wanted to make me into a small version of herself— teaching me weaving, writing, wiles. All I wanted was love— picked a bouquet of dandelions and handed it to my mother. When she turned her mouth into a little o and called the tight yellow suns weeds, my body became a weight I wanted to let go. I thought of all the lessons I memorized to keep me still, the colors I couldn’t wear because they clashed with my red hair, all the rules of modesty so men would not look at me with hunger. The only thing I owned was a jar I was given, like Pandora, as a girl. Before I unlatched the lid, I had already lost everything—faith, health, my child. I refused to watch what flew out. But something hard as lapis, real as want, wrenched my wrist right back so hope remained, writhing alone at the bottom of the jar like dirty water after dead tulips are discarded— yellow stamens dropping pollen to the floor. Silent, it watched me for years. Months at a time, I forgot it was there. But when it’s trapped like that, it grows so large, nothing can quell it. No one thanks me for what I have done. But I don’t need praise anymore. I turned weeds into flowers. Concepts mentioned: Keat’s Negative Capability The persona poem Epistolary poems Other Dickinson poems mentioned: “The Soul selects her own Society –” The Master Letters “After great pain, a formal feeling comes –” “’Hope’ is the thing with feathers” “They shut me up in Prose –” Characters mentioned: Antigone Pandora Persephone People mentioned in the interview: Alice Quinn (Columbia U) Richard Howard (Columbia U) Arnold Weinstein (Brown U) Ovid Du Fu The Romantics Lucie Brock-Broido Jane Hirshfield Louise Glück (T.S.) Eliot (William) Blake Michael Harper Rita Dove and her book, Mother Love Lucille Clifton Laurie Sheck – The Book of Persephone James Joyce Proust Viriginia Woolf William Faulkner Lucia Joyce Sylvia Plath Books mentioned: Anne of Green Gables Jane Eyre Wuthering Heights Recorded October 2025. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images and regular notices of new episodes. melodyorwitchcraft.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    32 min
  4. FEB 16

    Nuala O'Connor: rediscovering hope

    Nuala O’Connor lives in Galway, Ireland. Her fifth poetry collection Menagerie (Arlen House) was published in 2025. Her novel Miss Emily, about Emily Dickinson’s friendship with an Irish maid, was published in 2015 by Penguin USA and Sandstone in the UK. She’s currently writing a memoir about late-diagnosed autism. She is a member of Aosdána. “Hope” is the thing with feathers -That perches in the soul -And sings the tune without the words -And never stops - at all -And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -And sore must be the storm -That could abash the little BirdThat kept so many warm -I’ve heard it in the chillest land -And on the strangest Sea -Yet - never - in Extremity,It asked a crumb - of me. Miss Emily Dickinson’s Coconut CakeNuala O’Connor She blends Virgin Island coconutwith butter and sugar; sieves flour – two cups –beats eggs with the milk of an Amherst cow,adds cream of tartar to make everything bloom. In her white wrapper she stands at the window,lowers a basket of cake to the children below.‘Love’s oven is warm’, Miss Dickinson says,watching them eat from her spinster’s room. Other Dickinson poems mentioned: A Bird, came down the Walk I felt a Funeral, in my Brain, A Narrow fellow in the Grass (the “snake poem”) The quote I mention by Dickinson that shows how unhappy she was at this poem being changed when it was published (without her permission) is: “Lest you meet my Snake and suppose that I deceive it was robbed of me - defeated too of the third line by the punctuation. The third and the fourth were one - I had told you that I did not print.” (from Letter 316, early 1866, to Thomas Wentworth Higginson) Other Dickinson references mentioned: Dickinson’s “terror since September” we mention comes from Letter 261, 25 April 1862 to T. W. Higginson: “…I had a terror-since September-I could tell to none-and so I sing, as the Boy does by the Burying Ground-because I am afraid-…” Nuala references Dickinson saying to her niece Martha (Dickinson Bianchi), with a pantomimed turn of a key, “freedom.” From the book Emily Dickinson Face to Face, Martha writes, “She would stand, looking down, one hand raised, thumb and forefinger closed on an imaginary key, and say, with a quick turn of her wrist, ‘It’s just a turn—and freedom, Matty!’” (p. 58) Here’s an essay by Nuala called “The Hope Cure” –sharing its name with what will be the upcoming full memoir mentioned in the interview. People mentioned in the interview with Nuala: Emily Brontë and her poem “No Coward Soul is Mine” that Dickinson requested read at her funeral. “Higginson” is Thomas Wentworth Higginson, Union commander, radical abolishionist, Dickinson’s long-time correspondent, and one of her posthumous editors. Writers mentioned (influences of Nuala’s): Maria Edgeworth Edith Nesbit Noel Streatfeild Walter Macken “The Brontës” refer to sisters Charlotte, Emily, & Anne Jane Austen Kate Chopin Hélène Cixous (Nuala quotes from “The Laugh of the Medusa”) Anne Enright Mary Morrissy Eilís Ní Dhuibhne Paula Meehan Sharon Olds I don’t think I’ve ever come across a food blog that quoted poetry before! Emily’s coconut cake recipe can be found here (the site includes a scan of the recipe written in Emily’s hand.) Emily’s recipe for gingerbread can be found here. Here’s a video demonstration of one version of Emily’s black cake recipe. Join the Ask the Poet Substack (kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com) for complete show notes with images and regular notices of new episodes. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    31 min
  5. FEB 9

    Tina Cane: the poem as "a dispatch of my mind"

    Tina Cane is the founder and director of Writers in the Schools, Rhode Island and served as Poet Laureate of Rhode Island 2016-2024. Her books include Dear Elena: Letters for Elena Ferrante, Body of Work, and Year of the Murder Hornet. She’s also published two verse novels for young people, Alma Presses Play and Are You Nobody, Too? and is co-host with Joey Sweeney of the forthcoming podcast Stay Free. It feels a shame to be AliveWhen Men so brave are deadOne envies the Distinguished DustPermitted such a Head The Stone that tells defending WhomThis Spartan put awayWhat little of Him we possessedIn Pawn for Liberty The price is great Sublimely paidDo we deserve a ThingThat lives like Dollars must be piledBefore we may obtain? Are we that wait sufficient worthThat such Enormous PearlAs life dissolved be for UsIn Battle’s horrid Bowl? It may be a Renown to liveI think the Man who dieThose unsustained SaviorsPresent Divinity -Emily Dickinson Excerpts from Are You Nobody, Too?Tina Cane (Tina's poems were added as images to maintain formatting. Please go to kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com to see these and all images in these notes.) Fact Check: The excerpt from Are you Nobody, Too? titled “People/Purses,” is introduced with the beginning of a Dickinson poem Savior! I’ve no one else to tell - / And so I trouble thee. / I am the one forget thee so – Dost thou remember me? that Tina notes as #295 before she reads. This is the poem’s number in the collected works published by Ralph Franklin. In the Thomas Johnson edition of her collected works, it’s #217. You may see poem numbers noted as J-something or Fr-something; this system is what is being referred to. The Dickinson poems that you find online at the major sites such as the Academy of American Poets and the Poetry Foundation normally note the Franklin numbers. You can read the complete J217/Fr295 here. Other Dickinson poems mentioned: To the stanch DustWe safe commit thee –Tongue if it hath,Inviolate to thee –Silence – denote –And Sanctity – enforce thee –Passenger – of Infinity – Watch Tina’s co-presentation at the 2025 Tell It Slant Festival, Emily Dickinson Museum, Amherst, Massachusetts. (“Open My Carefully: Emily Dickinson’s Legacy of Correspondence”) Concepts mentioned: caesuraEpistolary poems People named in the interview with Tina: Frazar Stearns (although this article is dated, it gives in-depth context for the circumstances around and impact of Stearns’ death) (Alfred, Lord) Tennyson Aimee Nezhukumatathil Elena Ferrante Margaret Atwood Sheila Maldonado reading her poem Tina quoted from, “Temporary Statement” Robert Lowell Interview recorded October 2025. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your comments. For regular notifications of Melody or Witchcraft episodes, join the Ask the Poet Substack at kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    32 min
  6. SEASON 1 TRAILER

    Coming Around Again

    One of the poetry techniques that I’ve come to love – to look for, to lean on is repetition. Repetition comes in many forms and has many uses. Sometimes it’s about emphasis, sometimes it’s about a foggy, dreamy wistfulness or melancholy tone. Sometimes it takes the form of an incantation, a recitation that wants to call something into being, or it can be about music and rhythm—like the chorus of your favorite song, how it can become familiar so quickly, something that stays with you. I could go on. My mantel, always and whether I like it or not, has to do with finding parallels between poetry and the rest of life. So, naturally, while working on Melody or Witchcraft, I discovered not just that certain things—namely themes guests came around to during our conversations—repeated, but how fruitful that repetition was in helping me understand what we were doing and in contributing to the enjoyment of what we were up to. The conversations of Season One touch on topics you might anticipate a poetry podcast to touch on, like epistolary (letter) poetry, the trials of publishing, favorite mentors, and that perennial subject: the speaker of the poem. It also touches on topics you won’t have expected: the history of breast cancer surgery, wildlife in Indonesia, adoption, and Navajo creation stories. And through all those tributaries of dialogue and more, there are the most beautiful overlaps in subject matter, the repetitions. For example, one of the biggest to emerge is the importance of bringing the voices of women forward who did not have the opportunity to be heard in their lifetimes. I couldn’t have planned a more satisfying focal point to return to. Our starting point, Emily Dickinson, is intriguing for the ways in which she also wasn’t heard, and indeed for the ways she was—some of them interpreted far off-base from what her letters and other documents show to be the case. The second trailer for the show that I share with you here is on offer to give you another taste of the podcast before it debuts in just two weeks. Mondays beginning February 9th you’ll be able to find the full podcast episodes here and at other podcast platforms like Spotify and Apple. Check out @melodyorwitchcraft on Instagram as well as our webpage melodyorwitchcraft.com for more photos and info, and of course make sure you’re subscribed here at the Substack to get all the updates. Kelli Russell Agodon’s poem “Hunger” is below. The way repetition operates in this poem is a kind of two steps forward, one step back momentum in order to story the poem forward. A stutter, and yet, a momentum. Kelli will be a guest on the second season of the Melody or Witchcraft Podcast (which will be released over April & May). HungerKelli Russell Agodon If we never have enough love, we have more than most.We have lost dogs in our neighborhood and wild coyotes,and sometimes we can’t tell them apart. Sometimeswe don’t want to. Once I brought home a coyote and toldmy lover we had a new pet. Until it ate our chickens.Until it ate our chickens, our ducks, and our cat. Sometimeswe make mistakes and call them coincidences. We hold openthe door then wonder how the stranger ended up in our home.There is a woman on our block who thinks she is feeding bunnies,but they are large rats without tails. Remember the farmer’s wife?Remember the carving knife? We are all trying to changewhat we fear into something beautiful. But even rats need to eat.Even rats and coyotes and the bones on the trail could be the boneson our plates. I ordered Cornish hen. I ordered duck. Sometimeslove hurts. Sometimes the lost dog doesn’t want to be found. (Academy of American Poets, 2017) Prompt: Write the word “Sometimes” at the beginning of three different lines. Write the word “Remember” at the beginning of two more. Next, choose one abstract concept (love, anger, grief, compassion…) and two-three concrete nouns of things in your average or not-so-average day (coffee, traffic, books, rain…). Make this collection of abstract and the concrete words the core of what you talk (ostensibly) about—plan to use each of them at least three times in your draft. Using the first things that come to mind (no overthinking!) complete each of the Sometimes and Remember lines. Try out your new lines peppered with lines you write using your abstract/concrete word bank. Mix, match, and adjust as needed! Create and celebrate creative work—these are paths to resistance and redirecting energy into the world that we want. Thank you for your support! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

    2 min

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Conversations with today's poets and writers about Emily Dickinson and about the scope and sources of creative influence and the relevance of the past. Guests choose a Dickinson poem and one of their own to read. kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com