My husband Jonathan is hearing, and he learned Cued Speech because he liked me. In this first episode of Needs Editing, we talked about our first date, Dinner Table Syndrome, COVID being the pivotal moment that made him decide to start cueing more often with me, and about why we’ve committed to cueing 100% of time before our daughter arrives in a few weeks. It’s ultimately a conversation about clear and effective communication, and why it’s so important for deaf and hard of hearing people—and anyone, really!—to have it. Thanks for watching, and please feel free to share it with others. Transcript is below, and apologies if it or the captions are a little wonky—I’m still working that part out! Transcript: Sarah (00:00:03): Hey, so I’m Sarah. Jonathan (00:00:06): I’m Jonathan. Sarah (00:00:08): And this is the first episode of my new podcast, Needs Editing, which for now is going to explore the deaf experience broadly. And Jonathan, you’re my husband. And so we met in 2011 and I’m deaf and you’re hearing. And I didn’t tell you that before our first date. I just showed up. Jonathan (00:00:45): But I think I sort of knew I think I like Googled you and saw you were like connected to some like deaf board or group or something. And so I had like an inkling. I wasn’t totally surprised. I didn’t know, but I wasn’t like totally surprised. Sarah (00:01:14): Okay. It’s funny because we’ve been married for like 15 years and I’m still learning things. Not married but together for fifteen years. What? Jonathan (00:01:27): I’ve definitely told you that before. Sarah (00:01:30): Okay, whatever. But yeah, I was really young. I was 22 and I’m 37 now. I remember I was really nervous and I was oversharing about everything. And that was partly because... I was such an anxious person, but also because I wanted to filter out anyone who maybe weren’t (sic) serious. And so it worked. I charmed you. Jonathan (00:02:13): That makes sense. You were very charming. I remember I got us lost on the way to a gelato shop. I didn’t look at the map and I was just like, I’m a man, I can find it. Sarah (00:02:31): I remember that. Jonathan (00:02:33): But it took us like hours because I was so lost. Sarah (00:02:38): Yeah. So what was your first impression of me? Like, so you knew I couldn’t hear very well — or was it more like something you realized gradually, or? Jonathan (00:02:58): Well, I mean, as soon as we met, I realized that you were deaf and I had never really interacted with a deaf person before. I mean, I’m sure I’ve met deaf people, but I’ve never like really closely interacted. So I didn’t know much about, well, I knew nothing about the culture. And I didn’t really know much about accessibility. I remember I asked if you wanted to see a movie. And you said yes. And I was telling someone later about that. And they were like, well, how could she enjoy that? And I was like, oh, well, she just reads lips. But I didn’t think about how in a movie, you’re not always seeing a person’s face head on. Even if you were the best lip reader in the world, you couldn’t watch a movie that way. So I never thought about those things. And getting to know you was very educational for me on a lot of those issues. Sarah (00:04:29): And I remember during that date, I initially said yes. But then I later was like, actually, I can’t. Yeah. Because I won’t understand the movie. Jonathan (00:04:42): Right. Which is good. I’m glad you told me that. I think you actually told me that like 15 minutes. Sarah (00:04:51): I know. Jonathan (00:04:51): Before the end of the movie. And I was like, but I want to see. Yeah. Well. We went. We went. And it was like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We went. And it was this super tense foreign. Oh, it was a foreign film. So it was subtitled. Never mind. And maybe this was later on. I don’t remember. But I remember you being like, I’m bored. Let’s go. And it was like 10 minutes left in the movie. And I wanted to see what happened. But I was like, Okay, we can go. Yeah. Sarah (00:05:36): We haven’t explained to anyone that we’re using Cued Speech as a visual communication method that some deaf and hard of hearing people use to communicate. And it shows spoken languages visually. So, can you remind me — I don’t remember, um, how you started learning to cue? Did I teach — did I tell you to do it, or did you volunteer, or what? Jonathan (00:06:14): So I had never heard of it, as most hearing people haven’t. I had, of course, heard of ASL and just assumed that every deaf person wants to use ASL. So I think you told me about Cued Speech like right away or on our first or second date, like it was soon. And you never asked me, but I wanted to learn it because I liked you. So I wanted to learn it. Right away. And you taught me some. I studied a lot — I was taking the bus to work back then, so I would study on the bus. And I memorized the placements and positions pretty quickly. I always like to tell this story, as you know, but for the viewers, Sarah told me when we first met a person with average intelligence can become fluent in cueing in 48 hours. And so it’s now 15 years later, and I’m still not fluent. So that tells you about my intelligence levels. But... But my point is that it is very easy to learn the basics but it takes a long long time to get to a point where you can do it quickly enough for it to really work as a main mode of communication. I should say that part of that is me not practicing as much as I could have or should have. Like, I didn’t really start practicing super diligently until COVID. COVID, Sarah, you had to go to the hospital and I was not allowed to visit. And the only way we could communicate was through your phone on video chat and you could not hear a thing. So I had to cue to talk to you and that was the motivation I needed to really like bear down and practice a lot. I mean, I should have done it much sooner. But I always felt that you could understand me pretty well. And I think one of the things you and I are both realizing now or lately is that a lot of times like hearing people will decide what accessibility is necessary. And that’s really wrong. We hearing people need to listen to deaf people about what they need and you are a very kind and agreeable person and you never strongly advocated for me to get a lot faster or better. Because I would cue like with my family and you’d get so frustrated, because I was so slow, you’d be like, just don’t even worry about it. But that’s on me, because I needed to put in the extra work to get there for you, and I always told myself you didn’t really need that, but I should have listened to you more. Sarah (00:10:25): Well, I mean, I should also add that I’ve been very like wishy-washy about that. Like I haven’t, I’ve spent a lot of years just not owning my accessibility needs. And it’s only until recently that we started cueing all the time. And it’s made such a difference in terms of not just my access, but feeling like, um, like I’m cared for like that. Like that balance of communication is not out of whack. And I’ve always felt cared for by you, but it’s a different level. Jonathan (00:11:16): Yeah. Sarah (00:11:17): Yeah. And I’m sorry I’ve told you that you’re too slow, because that didn’t— Jonathan (00:11:25): I was and am, so I’m still trying to get better. Sarah (00:11:31): You’re pretty good. Jonathan (00:11:35): It’s a work in progress. If I have a drink or two, okay, this is an argument we have a lot. I believe that I cue much better when drunk because I’m not thinking as much about it. But Sarah, you’re like, no, you cue much worse. So maybe it’s just in my head. Or maybe I’m really fast when I’m drunk, but the signs are all wrong. The cues are all wrong because I’m drunk. I don’t know. But that should be studied, I think, in a lab. Sarah (00:12:20): Oh, definitely. So we’re having a baby soon. Jonathan (00:12:27): We are. Sarah (00:12:28): A few weeks. And so we’ve decided that we’re going to cue 100% of the time so that she knows Cued Speech. Why is it important to you that she learn to cue? Jonathan (00:12:51): Well, I mean... It’s not really that important for me. It’s important for me to have you be able to communicate with her like completely fluently. She needs that from her mom, and you need that from your daughter. So it is important to me for that reason, but it’s on behalf of your relationship with her. I mean, there are other benefits. I do believe like even if we were both hearing, I think cueing is probably a great tool, a literacy tool for young kids because it helps teach phonics, I imagine. So I’d probably be in favor of it just for that reason, too. But, I mean, it’s really important that you feel included in everything that she says, you know, from the start. Sarah (00:14:10): Yeah, I agree. And I’m glad that we came to this conclusion now before she arrived so that there’s no confusion. Jonathan (00:14:24): Yeah, and we’re going to sign as well. Yeah. Which is cool because I don’t know many signs at all. So I’m going to learn along with her. I just have to stay one step ahead of an infant. Sarah (00:14:48): You do? Yeah, we both do. So... Jonathan (00:14:57): Well, do you want to talk about the challenges of being married or dating a hearing person? And how we’ve navigated that? I mean, I know it hasn’t always been easy. Sarah (00:15:23): I mean, I know when we’re with your family, particularly your mom and sister, I really struggle a lot with following them sometimes, both of you, because they do speak primarily. And I’m looking at you sometimes, but I’m often tuning out. I do that in a lot of hearing settings. I just kind of tune out, and it’s called Dinner Table Syndrome, where deaf and hard of hearing people just feel disconne
