Professor Game Podcast

Rob Alvarez
  • 5.0 (91)
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  • Updated Weekly

#1 Gamification Podcast | Insights and Real-World Strategies to Boost Engagement, Loyalty & Retention. Professor Game helps innovators, product leaders, and educators use gamification and game thinking to create engagement that lasts. 🎙️ Hosted by Rob Alvarez — TEDx Speaker, consultant, and host of the #1 Gamification Podcast — each week brings you practical insights, case studies, and frameworks from 400+ global experts and proven real-world examples. Expect interviews with top practitioners in gamification, game design, and behavioral strategy, plus solo episodes where Rob breaks down practical frameworks you can apply in your team, classroom, or product. Join the movement to make engagement, motivation, and loyalty truly meaningful — with stories and strategies that transform the way people learn, work, and play. 💡 Listen. Learn. Apply Play to Your Strategy.

  1. 19h ago

    Factory Workers Who Wanted Safety Training

    Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Rob breaks down Gartner's prediction that 40% of large warehouse operations will adopt gamification by 2028, showing why the definition attached to that number (points, badges, leaderboards, and rewards) is the setup for the White Hat to Black Hat drift rather than a win for the field. He covers the frontline cases already on record, from Disney's 2011 "electronic whip" laundry leaderboard to Amazon's FC Games and Tae Wan Kim's 2026 Carnegie Mellon paper on gamifying meaningful work, then walks through Aperam's safety training project with The Octalysis Group as the counter-example built on Core Drives 2, 3, and 5. Listeners learn how to spot extractive gamification and how to test a system by asking what would be left if the leaderboard disappeared tomorrow. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways Gartner predicts 40% of large warehouse operations will adopt gamification by 2028, and defines it as points, badges, leaderboards, and rewards, which is the most extrinsic and most drift-prone stack available for work that runs on a multi-year horizon. The White Hat to Black Hat drift is dangerous on a warehouse floor in a way it is not in a consumer app, because a frontline worker cannot uninstall the job. Instead of churn, the cost shows up as overwork, injury, or people pushed out of their living. Amazon's FC Games offered warehouse workers virtual pets while injury rates ran above average, and workers publicly compared the program to the Black Mirror episode "Fifteen Million Merits." Carnegie Mellon business ethics professor Tae Wan Kim's 2026 paper "When Work Becomes a Game" found that gamifying meaningful work can shift a worker's reason for doing it from the purpose of the job to the points, a textbook over-justification effect measured on people at work. Aperam, one of the world's largest stainless steel producers, ran its 2017 safety training project with The Octalysis Group on Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity and Feedback) and Core Drive 5 (Social Influence and Relatedness), giving workers a voice in safety improvements and turning safety into a group quest instead of a ranking. The Aperam results were strong adoption, workers requesting early downloads of safety material, and a significant reduction in workplace accidents, because the target metric was fewer injuries rather than time spent in the training. Topics Covered 0:00 — The electronic whip and a 40% prediction 2:29 — What Gartner's definition actually contains 3:27 — White Hat to Black Hat drift, and who pays 5:06 — Amazon FC Games and virtual pets 6:08 — Tae Wan Kim on gamifying meaningful work 7:28 — Over-justification and Gartner's own warning 9:15 — Gamification can do this job well 10:06 — Aperam's safety training with Octalysis Group 12:45 — Black Hat as an on-ramp, not the engine 13:18 — Fewer accidents, not more engagement 14:23 — Questions to ask before you buy 17:21 — Where you want to sit in 2028 Mentioned in This Episode Gartner: 40% of large warehouse operations will adopt gamification tools by 2028 Federica Stufano, Gartner analyst behind the warehouse gamification prediction Tae Wan Kim, Carnegie Mellon business ethics professor, 2026 paper "When Work Becomes a Game" Amazon FC Games, the warehouse gamification program with virtual pets and arcade-style mini-games Disney's 2011 hotel laundry leaderboard, known among workers as the "electronic whip" Aperam, one of the world's largest stainless steel producers, and its safety training gamification project The Octalysis Group Core Drives in the Wild, the free Professor Game guide Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    Factory Workers Who Wanted Safety Training

  2. 20h ago ·  Bonus

    You Might Also Like: A Better Way to Money

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    You Might Also Like: A Better Way to Money

  3. Aug 10

    Why Points and Leaderboards Don't Fix Retention

    Recently funded and aiming for sustainable retention? Intro chat (no sales pitch): professorgame.com/chat Episode Summary Travis Clapp, co-founder and CEO of Coursebox AI, joins Rob to explain how AI is reshaping course creation and delivery for a platform used in 180 countries with over 300,000 courses built on it. He walks through Coursebox's "Break My Brain" feature, an AI mode built for personalized, adversarial learning rather than points and leaderboards, and explains why the platform now generates in 10 minutes what used to take him days to compile by hand. Travis also shares two gamification experiments gone wrong, an overbuilt golf training module and a crossword in an endangered Aboriginal language, and where he draws the line between fun and function. Listeners come away with a clearer read on why surface-level game mechanics rarely move the needle, and what deep personalization through AI looks like in practice. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways Coursebox AI now generates the five-document compliance package Travis used to build by hand for RTOs in about 10 minutes, work that once took him days per client. Coursebox's "Break My Brain" feature lets a learner, or Travis himself testing it on his own sales calls, get challenged and questioned by AI instead of clicking through a linear course, engaging Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback) and Core Drive 4 (Ownership & Possession). Travis's own team told him not to talk about leaderboards, points, certificates, or badges going into this episode, because platform-level leaderboards rarely produce deep engagement on their own, just a carrot on a stick. A German trucking client turned Coursebox training into a fully hands-free, podcast-style experience so drivers could complete quizzes and assignments by voice while on the road. Coursebox is used across 180 countries, has generated over 300,000 courses, and one flagship edX MOOC built on the platform reached more than 20,000 learners. An early gamified golf training module Travis built in 2011 nailed the learner experience but got flagged internally as the most expensive, overpriced piece of work the company had shipped, a reminder that engagement design still has to answer to budget. Topics Covered 0:00 — Opening hook: "don't talk about leaderboards" 1:18 — Travis Clapp's path to Coursebox AI 2:42 — New fatherhood and running a global startup from Australia 6:03 — Favorite fail: an over-engineered golf training module 9:03 — A crossword in an endangered language, gamification taken too far 10:57 — Why leaderboards and points rarely drive real engagement 12:57 — "Break My Brain": AI's personalized deep-learning mode 16:24 — Killing the step-by-step method for open, prompt-based design 18:02 — Tesla's Grok, Porsche, and voice-driven learning everywhere 20:55 — German truck drivers turning training into a podcast 21:41 — AI risk, specialization, and what never depreciates 27:20 — Book picks, favorite game, and where to find Coursebox AI Recently funded and aiming for sustainable retention? Intro chat (no sales pitch): professorgame.com/chat About Travis Clapp Travis Clapp is the co-founder and CEO of Coursebox AI, an AI course creation and training delivery platform used across 180 countries with over 300,000 courses created on the platform. He spent 15 years as an instructional designer before building Coursebox, working with companies like Johnson & Johnson, Electrolux, Michael Hill, and SA Health. At Open Colleges, he built the five-document compliance packages by hand that every RTO needs; Coursebox now generates the same packages in 10 minutes. One of his courses reached over 20,000 learners as a flagship edX MOOC. He knows what good learning takes because he spent years doing it the slow way. Before Coursebox, he founded and ran a social-based LMS for seven years, which became the foundation for what Coursebox AI is today. Four years ago he launched Coursebox AI, not to automate course creation, but to get to the part that matters: delivery. The AI tutor, the grading, the 24/7 coaching, the outcomes. Course creation, in his words, is about 1% of what the platform does. Travis still checks customer support messages at 4am. Find Travis Clapp Online Website: coursebox.ai LinkedIn (Travis): linkedin.com/in/travisclapp LinkedIn (Coursebox AI): linkedin.com/company/courseboxai Instagram: instagram.com/coursebox.ai TikTok: tiktok.com/@coursebox.ai Facebook: facebook.com/courseboxai X/Twitter: x.com/Coursebox_ai YouTube: youtube.com/@CourseboxAI Mentioned in This Episode Some links below are affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. TOG / P&G gamification case study The Octalysis Framework Book: I, Robot by Isaac Asimov Book: The Millionaire Mind by Thomas J. Stanley Book: The Expectant Father by Armin A. Brott & Jennifer Ash Rudick Favorite game: SimCity 2000 (1993) Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    Why Points and Leaderboards Don't Fix Retention

  4. Aug 3

    Your Engagement Program Is a Loan You're Still Paying

    Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real engagement programs: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Rob breaks down behavioral debt: the borrowed motivation hiding inside every legacy points, discount, or bonus program, showing why cutting an engagement program off cold is the fastest way to blow it up. He walks through JCPenney's collapse under Ron Johnson, a Fortune 500 rewards program employees now budget around like income, and how LATAM Airlines and Caixa Econômica Federal restructured their own behavioral debt using Octalysis Core Drives instead of switching it off. Listeners learn how to read their program's real balance sheet and start servicing behavioral debt without triggering a JCPenney-style default. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways JCPenney's Ron Johnson scrapped every discount and coupon overnight, replacing them with everyday low pricing; sales fell 25%, roughly $4.3 billion, and he was gone within two years. Ron Johnson later admitted only 1% of JCPenney's sales happened without a discount, meaning 99% of purchases depended on coupons the company had just eliminated. LATAM Airlines kept its miles intact but rebuilt the experience around Core Drive 7 (Unpredictability & Curiosity) and Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity & Feedback), driving a 153% increase in credit card acquisitions. Caixa Econômica Federal's incentive program had drifted to roughly 10% participation before a rebuild around collective purpose pushed it to 90%, adding $1.06 billion in revenue. Points tied to reaching performance targets ran on Core Drive 4 (Ownership & Possession) and Core Drive 8 (Loss & Avoidance), turning a reward employees didn't need into part of their household income. Topics Covered 0:00 — Behavioral debt hiding under green metrics 0:25 — A Fortune 500 rewards program families budget around 1:39 — Why most engagement advice assumes a blank slate 2:51 — Why behavioral debt hides behind green dashboards 3:29 — Borrowed motivation compounding like real interest 4:17 — JCPenney's Ron Johnson cuts every discount overnight 6:04 — Core Drives 4 and 8 inside the Fortune 500 case 8:07 — Why behavioral debt has no repayment plan 8:59 — Why you can't just switch off behavioral debt 9:20 — LATAM Airlines: servicing debt while building the replacement 11:23 — Caixa's jump from 10% to 90% participation 12:37 — Closing: most loyalty programs are just debt service Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real engagement programs: professorgame.com/WildCD Mentioned in This Episode LATAM Airlines Gamification Case Study (The Octalysis Group) Caixa Econômica Federal Banking Gamification Case Study (The Octalysis Group) The Octalysis Framework JCPenney's 2011-2013 "everyday low prices" strategy under CEO Ron Johnson Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    Your Engagement Program Is a Loan You're Still Paying

  5. Jul 27

    The Same Bonus Can Motivate Your Team, or Wreck It

    Real cases pulled apart through the Octalysis Core Drives, sent to your inbox over a few days. Get the free guide: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Rob breaks down why the same reward can pull a team forward or quietly wreck it, using three cases where the design decided the outcome. He walks through a school in Caracas where escalating fines for late pickups made lateness worse, the sales bonus patterns that produce burnout and sandbagging, and The Octalysis Group's project with Procter & Gamble's distributor Navo Orbico, where a gamified ship upgrade tightened the feedback loop instead of paying for the sale. Along the way he separates two mechanisms that often get treated as one: a fine turning a moral obligation into a price, and the over-justification effect crowding out intrinsic motivation on the reward side. Listeners learn how to match the reward to the job it actually has to do, and when to hand off to something more durable. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways A school in Caracas replaced the moral weight of collecting your child on time with an escalating fine, and lateness went up instead of down. Core Drive 5 (Social Influence and Relatedness) stopped doing its job the moment the delay carried a price. Gneezy and Rustichini's study "A Fine is a Price" documents the same reversal in day-care centers: a monetary fine for late pickups increased late pickups, and removing the fine did not bring them back down. A standing sales commission with nothing behind it pays for the behavior forever. Reps chase the next check to make ends meet, and with no other motivation in the system, the commission burns them out rather than building anything durable. Capped bonuses fail in two directions. Targets set too high get read as unreachable, so reps stop trying, and reachable targets get sandbagged, with closed-ready deals held into the next cycle so the company waits on revenue it wanted today. In The Octalysis Group's project with Procter & Gamble's distributor Navo Orbico, ship upgrades inside Masters of the Endless Seas cut the roughly week-long CRM lag on seeing whether a sale landed, tightening the Core Drive 2 (Development and Accomplishment) loop instead of paying for the sale. Rob was not on the project team and saw it presented at Brighton. Nearly every reward failure is one of two mistakes: treating the get-them-through-the-door reward as the whole engine, or bolting an extrinsic reward onto behavior that already had an intrinsic reason, which is where the over-justification effect crowds that reason out. Topics Covered 0:00 — The reward is a tool, not a motivator 1:56 — The Caracas school that fined late parents 2:45 — How a fine replaced a moral obligation 4:07 — A Fine is a Price, Gneezy and Rustichini 4:44 — When rewards do an honest job 6:07 — Standing commissions and sales rep burnout 7:07 — Bonus targets set too high to chase 8:06 — Hitting the number, then sandbagging deals 8:52 — The over-justification effect in action 9:27 — P&G's Masters of the Endless Seas 11:15 — Why the ship worked when the bonus failed 12:20 — Choosing the reward that fits the job Mentioned in This Episode Core Drives in the Wild, the free guide with real cases analyzed through the Octalysis Core Drives Episode 453: Why Users Agree But Never Start, where Rob covers the Procter & Gamble project in full "A Fine is a Price" by Uri Gneezy and Aldo Rustichini, Journal of Legal Studies, 2000 The Octalysis Group, and its project with Procter & Gamble's distributor Navo Orbico Masters of the Endless Seas, the gamified world built for the Procter & Gamble sales rep network The over-justification effect, and Core Drives 1, 2, 3, and 5 of the Octalysis Framework Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    The Same Bonus Can Motivate Your Team, or Wreck It

  6. Jul 20

    Driving Ranges Are Replacing Bowling Alleys (Here's Why)

    Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Frédéric Guitton, who leads sales and marketing at iTargetGolf after a career across banking, startups, financial services, and investment firms, explains how driving ranges are turning dead space into an interactive, gamified experience. He walks through the company's product line, including the iTarget Night Saber target that connects to Toptracer, Inrange, and Trackman through an API, the in-bay lights that fire when a player hits their target, and the new Cash Cup Golf hole-in-one contest played with RFID balls. Guitton lays out the three levers a driving range has for revenue, why post-COVID golf growth came from entertainment rather than traditional rounds, and how instant feedback keeps a player buying one more bucket. Listeners come away with a working model of physical gamification and a reminder that designing around real human behavior beats asking people to behave better. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways A driving range has only three levers for revenue, according to Frédéric Guitton: sell more balls, sell more food and beverage, or sell the balls for more money. Every engagement decision at iTargetGolf traces back to one of those three. iTargetGolf's first targets were powder-coated metal and looked great, but ball picker staff bumped them and metal does not give, so it bent or broke permanently. The replacement is cut from utility sewer pipe and survives 400 to 500 pounds driving over it. Post-COVID golf growth came from entertainment, not from more rounds on traditional courses. Guitton describes the driving range starting to replace the bowling alley as the family night out, which brings in an audience that never came to practice. The iTarget Night Saber target connects through an API to Toptracer, Inrange, and Trackman ball tracking, so a landed ball triggers an animation within seconds. That instant feedback is Core Drive 2 (Development and Accomplishment) delivered in the physical world. Choosing low voltage over high voltage took permitting out of the install path. A California range that signed in mid-June started its install roughly four weeks later, which turned an infrastructure decision into a sales advantage. Guitton frames the B2B2C tension plainly: the range's success drives iTargetGolf's success, so the company treats itself as a consequence of its customers' results rather than a driver of them. Topics Covered 0:00 — Opening and introduction 2:17 — Inside a week at iTargetGolf 3:25 — Favorite fail: metal targets that bend 6:34 — Sewer pipes and the strike point redesign 9:01 — The four products iTargetGolf builds 11:31 — How a general contractor started the company 14:58 — Golf as entertainment after COVID 15:57 — Three ways a driving range makes money 17:46 — Making it fun and creating new golfers 19:35 — Best practices: listen and stay locked in 22:45 — Football intelligence and instant feedback 27:47 — Outliers, favorite games, and goodbyes Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD About Frédéric Guitton Frédéric Guitton leads the sales and marketing strategy at iTargetGolf, where he is helping redefine the driving range experience through interactive down-range technology. He relocated from France to Central Florida in 1996 and built a career in banking before expanding into startups, financial services, and investment firms, developing experience across business strategy, operations, sales, marketing, and executive leadership. At iTargetGolf he works on a product line that combines interactive illuminated targets, skill-based cash prize games, and integrated ball-tracking technology to increase player engagement and open new revenue for golf facilities. His current focus is building scalable systems, strengthening customer relationships, expanding strategic partnerships, and positioning the company in the evolution of golf entertainment technology. Find the Guest Online Website: itargetgolf.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/fguitton Instagram: @itarget_golf TikTok: @itarget_golf Facebook: iTargetGolf on Facebook Mentioned in This Episode Some links below are affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. Recommended book: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell Proposed guest: Scott Armstrong, involved with TGL, the indoor golf competition on ESPN Ball tracking platforms iTargetGolf integrates with: Toptracer, Inrange, Trackman Topgolf, referenced as the far end of the golf entertainment spectrum iTargetGolf products discussed: iTarget Night Saber, iTarget Strike Point, in-bay lights, and Cash Cup Golf Favorite game to watch: volleyball. Favorite sport to play: cycling. Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    Driving Ranges Are Replacing Bowling Alleys (Here's Why)

  7. Jul 13

    The Reason Your Users Agree But Never Start

    Want a sharper read on motivation design? Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, real cases decoded through this exact framework, one short email a day: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Rob argues that Black Hat motivation, the urgency and scarcity most designers treat as the villain, is the on-ramp that gets people to act at all. He breaks down the Octalysis Group's award-winning project with Procter & Gamble's distributor Navo Orbico, which reached 99.5% voluntary participation on a non-compulsory rollout and a 28.6% revenue increase by starting with pressure and handing off to meaning. Drawing on Ocean Hero as the rare frictionless exception, he shows why White Hat drives like Epic Meaning seldom start action on their own. Listeners learn the Black-Hat-to-White-Hat handoff and two diagnostic questions to test whether their own system can make the switch. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways The Octalysis Group's project with Procter & Gamble reached 99.5% voluntary participation on a non-compulsory rollout and a 28.6% revenue increase, evidence that Black Hat urgency and White Hat meaning work in sequence, not opposition. In the Octalysis framework, Black Hat and White Hat motivation are not good and evil. Black Hat (urgency, scarcity, pressure) gets people to act now; White Hat (meaning, empowerment) makes them glad they stayed. Relying only on grand meaning and Core Drive 3 (Empowerment of Creativity and Feedback) tends to produce a "someday," which in practice means never, because wanting to act is rarely a strong enough forcing function to overcome friction. The P&G rollout launched using Core Drive 5 (Social Influence and Relatedness) as pressure: getting into the system meant tracking down colleagues for an access code, which sparked FOMO (Core Drive 8) and curiosity (Core Drive 7) rather than belief in a grand vision. After the on-ramp, the system handed off to White Hat: reps became captains of trading ships, territories became open seas, and clients became colonies, activating Core Drive 1 (Epic Meaning) and Core Drive 2 (Development and Accomplishment). Ocean Hero is the rare case where White Hat alone starts action, because switching a search engine is one click of near-zero friction, so Core Drive 1 can carry the behavior with no urgency at all. Topics Covered 0:00 — Opening hook: why products stall 1:14 — The P&G result: 99.5% voluntary 3:05 — Black Hat and White Hat serve different moments 4:53 — The frictionless exception: Ocean Hero 6:07 — Inside the P&G rollout 7:30 — The handoff: reps become ship captains 9:16 — When Black Hat never matures into more 10:09 — Two diagnostic questions for your system 11:27 — What a mistimed handoff looks like 12:06 — Black Hat starts, White Hat sustains Mentioned in This Episode The Octalysis Group case study with Procter & Gamble's distributor Navo Orbico (Gamification Project of the Year, first presented in Brighton): 99.5% voluntary participation, 28.6% revenue increase Ocean Hero, the search engine whose revenue funds clearing plastic from the oceans (a project supported by The Octalysis Group) The Octalysis framework: Black Hat and White Hat motivation, and Core Drives 1 through 8 Episode 446, the airline miles loyalty teardown Episode 450, Amazon's internal AI leaderboard Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

    The Reason Your Users Agree But Never Start

  8. Jul 6

    Why "More Effort" is Ruining Your Team (And How to Fix It)

    Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD Episode Summary Michael Lukich, a marketing analytics leader with more than 20 years across consulting, data, and strategy, explains why the fix for a struggling team is almost never more effort. He walks through the closed-loop trap he built early in his management career, the systems thinking tools he now uses to find leverage points, and why over-measuring single marketing channels quietly starves the top of the funnel. Drawing on the Cabreras' DSRP model, Donella Meadows, and nearly 25 years at the poker table, he shows how to see a whole system instead of optimizing one piece to the detriment of the goal. Listeners come away with a practical way to map any system, pick a single North Star metric, and design loops that let a team improve on its own. About the Host Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia. Key Takeaways Michael Lukich's early management trap was a closed loop with no exit: he could not step away until the team improved, and the team could not improve until he stepped away, which pushed him to 75-hour weeks before he redesigned the loop instead of adding effort. Accepting work at roughly 70 percent of his own output, paired with a tighter review cadence, let his team feel the consequences of their own decisions and turned him from a micromanager into a player coach. The "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" credo pushes budget toward easily measured lower-funnel channels and leaves the top of the funnel leaky, because no one can defend upper-funnel spend in a boardroom. The fix is whole-system measurement through multi-channel attribution and mixed models, not more measurement. Zynga over-relied on data and stacked Black Hat Core Drives that drive urgency and scarcity, a reminder that an A/B test measures one week, not how a feature performs as a system over two years. Derek and Laura Cabrera's DSRP model (Distinctions, Systems, Relationships, Perspectives) gives a four-part way to map almost any system, then find the bottleneck where one move has the biggest outsized effect. Poker trains decision-making under uncertainty and incomplete information, including the faulty learning loop where playing well can still lose and playing poorly can still win, which is why Michael says half the frameworks in his book started at the poker table. Topics Covered 0:00 — The loop you cannot escape 0:20 — Meet Michael Lukich: data, teaching, poker 2:41 — Designing your own life as a system 5:46 — Promoted into a trap with no exit 11:14 — The marketing measurement trap 13:53 — Frankenstein products, Zynga, and Black Hat 17:34 — A practical system: pick one metric 18:56 — Mapping systems with DSRP 22:23 — The strategy dashboard and the North Star 24:07 — James Clear, Ryan Holiday, and one book 26:54 — Translation and poker as the perfect game 30:25 — Where to find Michael and closing advice Get the free Core Drives in the Wild guide, behavioral design applied to real products: professorgame.com/WildCD About Michael Lukich Michael Lukich is a marketing analytics leader with more than 20 years across consulting, data, and business strategy, currently running marketing analytics for a major US marketing agency. He spent five years as an adjunct professor and has played poker for nearly 25 years, two habits that shaped how he thinks about teaching and making decisions under uncertainty. He writes the Stoic Systems Thinker newsletter, where ancient Stoic philosophy meets modern systems thinking, and is the author of the book of the same name. He lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan with his wife and two daughters. Find Michael Lukich Online The Stoic Systems Thinker (website and newsletter) LinkedIn The Stoic Systems Thinker on Substack Mentioned in This Episode Some links below are affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows James Clear and Atomic Habits Ryan Holiday Poker The Stoic Systems Thinker by Michael Lukich Derek and Laura Cabrera's DSRP model (Distinctions, Systems, Relationships, Perspectives) Meditations by Marcus Aurelius Zynga The Octalysis Framework and Black Hat Core Drives Kaizen and Kaikaku (continuous improvement versus radical change) Free Resources and Get in Touch Core Drives in the Wild: Professor Game Free Guide Get Daily Value on Your Email Let's chat about your gamification project YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Start Your Community on Skool for Free Ask a question

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#1 Gamification Podcast | Insights and Real-World Strategies to Boost Engagement, Loyalty & Retention. Professor Game helps innovators, product leaders, and educators use gamification and game thinking to create engagement that lasts. 🎙️ Hosted by Rob Alvarez — TEDx Speaker, consultant, and host of the #1 Gamification Podcast — each week brings you practical insights, case studies, and frameworks from 400+ global experts and proven real-world examples. Expect interviews with top practitioners in gamification, game design, and behavioral strategy, plus solo episodes where Rob breaks down practical frameworks you can apply in your team, classroom, or product. Join the movement to make engagement, motivation, and loyalty truly meaningful — with stories and strategies that transform the way people learn, work, and play. 💡 Listen. Learn. Apply Play to Your Strategy.

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    Rob Alvarez
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    2017 - 2026
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    460
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    Clean
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    professorgame.com © 2025
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    Professor Game Podcast

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