Online Learning in the Second Half

John Nash & Jason Johnston
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  • EDUCATION
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In this podcast, John Nash and Jason Johnston take public their two-year-long conversation about online education and their aspirations for its future. They acknowledge that while some online learning has been great, there is still a lot of room for improvement. While technology and innovation will be a topic of discussion, the conversation will focus on how to get online learning to the next stage, the second half of life. Click here to give us feedback on our podcast!

  1. EP 41 - Moving Beyond Copy-Paste AI Syllabus Policies with John Nash & Jason Johnston

    JAN 22

    EP 41 - Moving Beyond Copy-Paste AI Syllabus Policies with John Nash & Jason Johnston

    In EP 41, John and Jason discuss the evolving challenge of moving beyond 'copy-paste' AI policies to create syllabus guidelines that encourage students to engage in the 'productive struggle' of learning. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too) Host Bios: Walk into schools today and generative AI is on the agenda—and many leaders aren’t sure what to do with it. John Nash helps them figure it out. An associate professor at the University of Kentucky and founding director of the Laboratory on Design Thinking, he makes AI practical and useful, not just theoretical. He’s on two generative AI advisory boards at the University of Kentucky and one at MidPacific Institute in Honolulu, advising educators from local superintendents to teachers in international schools. He teaches courses in design thinking, leading deeper learning, and mixed methods research, and his research interests study the application of human-centered design in organizational leadership. Jason Johnston is the Executive Director of Online Learning & Course Production in Digital Learning at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. His background includes developing and launching online degree programs, directing educational technology, teaching, and working as an audio engineer. Holding a PhD in Educational Leadership, an M.Ed. in Educational Technology, and an M.Div., Jason advocates for humanity and equity in online education while helping educators leverage technology for the future. He co-hosts the podcast Online Learning in the Second Half (www.onlinelearningpodcast.com) and enjoys playing guitar, building Lego, and traveling with his family. Resources: University of Kentucky Syllabus Policy: https://celt.uky.edu/ai-course-policy-examples University of Tennessee, Knoxville Syllabus Policy: https://writingcenter.utk.edu/sample-syllabus-statements-for-ai-guidelines/ Jason’s Policy Icons: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MG9h68__uqPSz6HXNeVymJhal1VNapjyK-2PFa5QFxI/edit?usp=sharing John’s Policy Example: https://johnnash.notion.site/John-Nash-s-Stance-on-Generative-AI-Use-by-Students-in-Courses-2eff24fd17cc8043ae2be34712680c28 Chronicle article by Geoff Watkinson “I’m an AI Power User. It Has No Place in the Classroom. Learning to think for yourself has to come first.“: https://www.chronicle.com/article/im-an-ai-power-user-it-has-no-place-in-the-classroom (paywalled - should be able to read for free with login) Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Battle Hymn of the Republic is public domain from the Library of Congress https://www.loc.gov/item/jukebox-767050/ Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! [00:00:00] Jason: Can we do the quick intro? [00:00:02] John Nash: Yeah, hold on. [00:00:03] Jason: That was the intro to your other podcast. [00:00:06] John Nash: Yeah, [00:00:06] Jason: John, have you [00:00:07] John Nash: exactly. [00:00:08] Jason: Beyond My Back? [00:00:10] John Nash: No, I am not podcasting. Behind your back. I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. [00:00:15] Jason: John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the [00:00:19] John Nash: I. [00:00:19] Jason: Learning podcast. Mm-hmm. [00:00:20] John Nash: Yeah, we're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but a lot still has a way to go. How are we going to get to the next stage, Jason? [00:00:35] Jason: is a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it? [00:00:39] John Nash: Perfect. What do you want to talk about today? [00:00:41] Jason: You know, you always ask me that question and I really appreciate it. But what do you want to talk about today, John? [00:00:47] John Nash: Oh, you know what I want to talk about today? I want to talk about the struggle that instructors are having to set guidelines for the use of generative AI in their classes. [00:00:57] Jason: I think that sounds like a great conversation, especially the front end of a semester here. [00:01:02] John Nash: Yeah, is it the lawyers that say, or the justices that say, "this is not settled law?" [00:01:07] Jason: Hmm. [00:01:07] John Nash: This is definitely not settled law. We, we are not lawyers. We do not play them on podcasts. We are just a couple of, a couple of folks that are trying to think this through. So, Jason, we just came off of a really cool episode with Megan Haselschwerdt at University of Tennessee, one of your colleagues, who engaged your office to think about ways to deal with how her students were using generative AI in her class. And that's really made me think a lot about how a lot of us are wondering how we can have guidelines that work in our classes where it really doesn't matter what it is we're teaching. I think it'd be good if we could talk about that. I've had some really big evolving thoughts around my own stance on this. Even after three years in, I think I've finally written down something I can live with. But there's a lot of options out there for faculty and teachers and instructors. There are stoplight protocols. There are guidelines out there that universities have put out that faculty can adopt just right out of the box. But do they really fit? I talk with my colleagues at my work and they're sort of saying, sometimes "just tell me what I should put in my syllabus" and I'm replying with things like, "well, it's hard to say that this will fit your syllabus because really it's an ethical conversation you need to have with yourself and your students." And so, I think it'd be really good for us to sort of lay out what we're doing, what we're hearing, and get people to give us feedback on what they're doing and even call into question our own stances. [00:02:43] Jason: Yeah, at the end of the podcast with Megan, we're kind of asking for advice for faculty. One of the things she talked about was that she wished she had a little more coaching before she started her class when she was designing her class. Wish she had a little more coaching, a little more time to talk about it. And I think that makes complete sense. I think what we're seeing is that, without a lot of time spent on it, I think faculty are, are kind of defaulting to the two extremes. Either they're not saying anything about it, maybe just letting anything happen with regards to ai, or they're putting in a really quick statement, or maybe they say something in their first class how they don't allow any AI use whatsoever. I think Megan's story, and this is a spoiler about how good it is, but I think it was just a great story to talk about how faculty might be able to kind of wrestle with that and figure out where there might be a middle ground that would actually increase learning for the students and engagement, but also potentially decrease the actual use of AI. [00:03:51] John Nash: Yeah, maybe talk a little bit about what the overarching approaches are at University of Tennessee Knoxville, and I can say what has been promulgated here at the University of Kentucky. I think they're a little bit similar and just sort of, there are some I call them stoplight protocols. You get a red, yellow, or green kind of approach that a faculty can copy and paste and drop into their syllabus. And can you also talk a little bit about what the pros and cons are of that copy paste approach without maybe thinking about what the actual work is that students might do in your class. [00:04:27] Jason: Yeah, we a similar thing it sounds like to UK, which the provost office has the kind of the, the, the strict no AI, the, know. AI freedom kind of thing, and then a moderate approach. And we can put the links into both of those. Both at UK and University of Tennessee, Knoxville. And, and so that's, so that's, essentially the guidance we've been giving for syllabus. And I think people do copy and paste those in. the kind of what our approach as we're helping. Faculty design online courses have been a little bit more customized and to spend some more time in that messy middle of "moderate," because when it comes to "moderate," it does take, I think, more intentionality and more communication and more thought you approach it. And probably more specific. Policies that would apply to certain assignments. And so there may be one assignment that has a different kind of moderation another assignment. So, for instance, in my class the, I teach a couple of online classes a year for UT and in my human computer interaction class in the fall. In their reflection pages, I ask for no AI use whatsoever. So, I have a strict policy when it comes to my reflection because, up to a level anyways, I want to see the mistakes, I want to hear their thinking. I want to kind of walk with them on, on what they're, even if it's some rambling. But., on a lot of the other projects I have, have more of kind of a human first, human last kind of approach, or we've called an AI human sandwich with AI in the middle to help called human in the loop kind of approach. Most of my assignments are that way and I just. Really want more transparency and I'm able to articulate that and I'll put in the link as well. You're free to take a look at and use something we use. I try to communicate with icons as well to try to communicate what that process would look [00:06:37] John Nash: Right. [00:06:37] Jason: So, it might look like it might look like a, a human then an AI or just a human and AI symbol, and then a human again, or it might just be human AI. And so,

    29 min
  2. EP 40 - Does Allowing AI Reduce AI? A Surprising Finding with Dr. Megan Haselschwerdt

    JAN 15

    EP 40 - Does Allowing AI Reduce AI? A Surprising Finding with Dr. Megan Haselschwerdt

    EP 40 - Does Allowing AI Reduce AI? A Surprising Finding with Dr. Megan Haselschwerdt In EP 40, John and Jason talk with Megan Haselschwerdt about her transformative semester moving from a futile "cat-and-mouse" game of AI detection to a trust-based partnership with students, demonstrating how transparent dialogue, a more open policy, and addressing "insurmountable" assignment loads are far more effective than policing. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Guest Bio: Megan Haselschwerdt, Ph.D., serves as an Associate Professor and HDFS Graduate Program Director in Human Development and Family Science at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. She earned her Ph.D. and M.S. in Human and Community Development from the University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign and a B.S. in Psychology from Indiana University-Bloomington. As an interpersonal violence and family science scholar, Dr. Haselschwerdt’s research focuses on intimate partner violence (IPV) from the perspectives of victimized adults, young adults with childhood exposure, and support professionals. Specializing in qualitative methodologies like grounded theory and reflexive thematic analysis, she also collaborates on mixed-methods studies to examine help-seeking behaviors and develop trauma-informed interventions. She currently directs the Family Violence Across the Lifespan research team, leading initiatives such as the REVEAL Project and the Young Adults Live and Learn Project to promote safety, healing, and justice. Resources: Dr. Haselschwerdt’s Scholarship: https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=hTSsBcQAAAAJ&inst=9897619243961157265 Megan’s AI Use Policies: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I2THuGIaKYstGyZylQS4FgvbNV0B1j3Q3hEpGI4K_l4/edit?usp=sharing Jason’s AI Policy (and free / open source icons for communication) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MG9h68__uqPSz6HXNeVymJhal1VNapjyK-2PFa5QFxI/edit?usp=sharing Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections!   [00:00:00] Jason: I'm going to butcher your last name probably [00:00:02] Megan: Oh yeah, that's okay. We do too. [00:00:03] Jason: us with that [00:00:05] Megan: Yeah. So, we say it all very differently in our family, so it's totally fine. I, I say Haselschwerdt as though there's a z Yeah. Other people, other family members say hassle, but yeah, I say it as though there's a z Hazel Schwart. [00:00:16] John Nash: Okay, cool. I was, [00:00:18] Jason: Hazel Schwart [00:00:20] Megan: Mm-hmm. [00:00:21] John Nash: I took German for years and so I love the sound of German, so I Yeah. I said, [00:00:27] Megan: Yes. Yeah, we, we. [00:00:29] John Nash: be totally German of [00:00:30] Megan: We offend Germans when I say, like, what, how we say our last name? Yeah. It's unrecognizable. Yep. [00:00:36] John Nash: Nice shirt. Yeah. Okay, cool. [00:00:40] Jason: Haz-el-Schwart [00:00:41] John Nash: Haselschwerdt, [00:00:42] Jason: You [00:00:42] Megan: Yep. That's totally fine. [00:00:44] John Nash: Okay. Haselschwerdt. [00:00:45] Megan: I think Jo, uh, John has it the authentic way and Jason's American butchered from Ellis Island Way works just well too. [00:00:53] John Nash: I can't, yeah, I can't help myself though. So [00:00:55] Jason: I can't help myself either [00:00:57] Megan: ha ha... Intro [00:00:58] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. [00:01:01] Jason: Hey John Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning the second half the Online Learning Podcast [00:01:06] John Nash: Yeah, we're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but a lot of it still has a ways to go. How are we going to get to the next stage? Jason? [00:01:22] Jason: That's a great question How about we do a podcast and talk about it [00:01:26] John Nash: love that idea. What do you want to talk about today? I. [00:01:29] Jason: today I don't know how many times I can do this joke but how about we talk a little bit about AI and education [00:01:34] John Nash: Wait, is that a thing now? [00:01:36] Jason: Yeah [00:01:37] John Nash: I'm willing to try. [00:01:38] Jason: Yeah, I don't know much about it seems like everything I learn about it then I unlearn about it as well. But I'm really interested today We've got a colleague here one of my colleagues from University of Tennessee Knoxville with us Megan and we are just talking about me butchering her last name And so I'm just going to let her introduce herself Megan [00:01:58] Megan: Hello, I'm Megan Haselschwerdt [00:02:00] Jason: Welcome to the podcast It's so great to have you here and tell us a little bit about what do you teach what do you do at University of Tennessee Knoxville [00:02:08] Megan: So, I'm an associate professor in the Department of Counseling, Human Development and Family Science. I'm in the Human Development and Family Science side of things, and I'm the Director of Graduate Studies. Outside of teaching, I'm an intimate partner violence researcher, family violence researcher. But in the context of teaching at the undergraduate level, I teach HDFS 385, which is Child and Family Diversity. I teach this course at the graduate level, and I also teach some qualitative research methods, family theory, that sort of thing. But for undergrads I've been teaching Child and Family Diversity, fully in person, hybrid, kind of split between in person and asynchronous online. this semester is our first time with the fully launched distance ed online course. [00:02:50] Jason: That's great we really got talking because of really my role at University of Tennessee which is in more of a centralized office And I was included in a conversation where we started talking a little bit about AI the classroom And first could you give a little bit of a context about how long the course that we're talking about and then how long you had been teaching that course. [00:03:16] Megan: Absolutely. So, I've taught this class since fall of 2020. And so, it's had the, I can't even keep track of the number of modalities I've taught it in since 2020, which I think some people don't realize if they haven't taught between multiple modalities, that really, you're ending up creating a new class multiple time [00:03:35] Jason: Yeah [00:03:36] Megan: Things don't translate. And I, that's part of the learning this semester is what translates well from even hybrid into fully online asynchronous. So, this course is a semester long class. It's a three-credit hour course. And this is my first time teaching it this fall 2025 in this current form. it's mostly traditional brick and mortar students. It's our new distance ed program. So only five of about our 85 are fully online. The other 75 or so are, traditional students who either opted into the online version or were registered for an in-person version that we ended up canceling and merging into my course. [00:04:16] Jason: Interesting. I wonder about how many of our classes and programs will shift into more that digital doesn't necessarily mean distance [00:04:25] Megan: yeah. [00:04:26] Jason: know that as students are taking these online that as we flex modalities you talked about the modality shift of your classes. Thinking about the number of modalities that they have taken to go through an undergrad Then potentially a graduate program [00:04:41] Megan: And it's been interesting, our students, we collected data, coming out of, the early parts of the pandemic at least. And what we found is that students really wanted more in-person classes. they said they felt frustrated that they'd had mostly online courses. And so, we tried to make sure we were always offering a good balance. But when we offer an online and an in-person in the same semester, the in-person course is under-enrolled. We think that maybe this is specific more to juniors and seniors who have established their social networks, they have work, they have volunteering, they have just a lot of complicated demands, and so maybe for them online is more appealing. But we've also heard from students how difficult it is to, if you have an online class and an in-person, like racing out of the in-person to find a place where they can do the online, especially if it's a synchronous online class. So, the data that we get does not align with students' registration decisions, and that's made things a little complicated. [00:05:36] Jason: Yeah, so getting into this class, I think that's the wonderful context and I love the fact that your program is thinking about this and being thoughtful about the student experience. Thinking about this class you've been teaching it for five years or so tell us I really want to get into the story of this and [00:05:52] Megan: Yeah. [00:05:53] Jason: what has happened this semester Tell us a little bit about why you reached out to our department initially. [00:06:00] Megan: So, when I was building this class, so I've historically always taken you know, University of Tennessee provides us with an AI kind of general policy syllabus statement of, you know, open access, moderate use AI or like no AI. And I've always historically done the moderate use. However, I have not taught undergrads in the AI era until this semester. I'd only taught graduate students. And so, this semester went into it with my syllabus, decided because it's fully an online, the smartest thing I could do just my own thinking, not from literature was I should say no

    42 min

  3. JAN 7

    EP 39 - The Higher Ed AI Solution: Good Pedagogy with Lance Eaton

    In EP 39, John and Jason discuss with Lance Eaton the threat that AI-driven "agentic browsers" pose to continue industrialized online learning models, the necessity of clear institutional policies to support instructors, and why good pedagogy remains the best solution to the “AI problem” and faculty exhaustion. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Guest Bio: Lance Eaton, Ph.D. is a writer, educator, faculty developer, instructional designer, and educational consultant based in Providence, Rhode Island. He holds degrees in History, Criminal Justice, American Studies, Public Administration, Instructional Design, and Higher Education. His writing has appeared in newspapers, trade publications, academic journals, books, and encyclopedias. With more than 15 years of experience creating online content—including blogs, a YouTube channel, and other digital projects—his work spans education, technology, and learning design. He has extensive experience working with youth, nonprofit organizations, higher education, and online communities. Connect with Lance at his website here: https://www.lanceeaton.com/ , his substack here https://aiedusimplified.substack.com/, and LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leaton01/ Resources: Post: Looking for ChatGPT Teaching Advice? Good Pedagogy is Nothing New, July 19, 2023 by Autumm Caines Lance’s appearance on AI Diatribe Podcast. NCFDD Workshop “The AIs Go Marching On: Finding Our Way with AI in Education” - https://members.ncfdd.org/finding-way-ai-education-webinar?submissionGuid=b1228e61-a304-42ca-a174-83c92a56a7e5 Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! Cold Open [00:00:00] Jason: Lance you had brought up AOL - don't know if either one of you knew, but just recently, September 30th, they actually finally stopped servicing their dial up. Just September 30th, 2025. [00:00:14] John Nash: I heard about that there were some people That were still dialing up. [00:00:19] Jason: Yeah. for a lot of our listeners, they don't even realize that, that we use the dial up sound in the beginning of our podcast very intentionally because we were talking about online learning in the second half, and that was an artifact of. The first half of online learning, we would call it where people had kind of sketchy internet connections weren't able to do a lot, but it was the beginning, you know, as, as we kind of talked about, you talked about Lance starting in online education even in the early two thousands. So, so I wondered if maybe because I, I thought you guys would understand, maybe we take a moment of silence for the, the AOL dial up service. [00:01:01] Lance Eaton: I feel like there should be a digital bugle. [00:01:05] Jason: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Playing some digital taps. [00:01:09] John Nash: Alright. [00:01:09] Jason: Yep. Intro [00:01:10] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason [00:01:11] Jason: Hey John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the Online Learning Podcast. [00:01:17] John Nash: Yeah, we're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but some still has a way to go. So how can we get to the next stage, Jason? [00:01:33] Jason: that is a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it? [00:01:38] John Nash: I think that's a fabulous idea. What do you want to talk about today? [00:01:40] Jason: Well, first I want to say it has been three years for the podcast, I think now. Right? But you and I have been having this conversation a lot longer than that now, John. [00:01:49] John Nash: We have. We have, we [00:01:51] Jason: We probably first met in 2016 now, so we're coming up on like almost a decade, I think at University of Kentucky when I was there. [00:01:59] John Nash: Yeah. [00:02:00] Jason: You were [00:02:01] John Nash: Yep. [00:02:02] Jason: 2016, a potential professor as I was thinking about the PhD program and then became my professor and chair of my dissertation study. [00:02:10] John Nash: Well, I was a, I was a professor. I wasn't a potential professor, but I [00:02:14] Jason: That's right. [00:02:15] John Nash: I was a, I was a potential dissertation advisor. [00:02:19] Jason: You know, don't lock yourself down. I think you have a lot of potential, John. [00:02:23] John Nash: Yeah. And we were teaching online in that department since 2012. So, with the days of Adobe Connect, oh my God. And Moodle and yeah, all the fun things. [00:02:36] Jason: Yeah, yeah. And we have with us today, sorry, I don't want to ignore our guests. We have with us Lance Eaton. You know, the bottom line is this is just an opportunity for John and I to talk. Hope you don't mind just stepping in here and listen to us jabber. [00:02:49] Lance Eaton: To pull some popcorn. Like I, I'm interested why I'm into this hook. Where's the season going? I want to know. [00:02:55] Jason: You could probably even riff off of like you've been at online learning for a long time, Lance, so we'll get into a formal introduction in a second. But what are some of your earliest memories of doing online learning and technologies and [00:03:07] Lance Eaton: I, I often talk about, like, I took my first online course in 2000 [00:03:11] Jason: wow. [00:03:11] Lance Eaton: then I taught my first online course, I want to say around 2009, [00:03:16] Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:03:17] Lance Eaton: And then started doing instructional design with faculty around online learning in like 2011. So, it's definitely been, been around the block and, and have been at different institutions from community colleges up to like Ivy League institutions doing this, this kind of work. [00:03:33] Jason: Yeah, that's good. Well, tell us a little bit more about yourself where you are located, what your current role, what, what you do with yourself. [00:03:40] Lance Eaton: Gosh. That's a loaded question. So yeah, I'm Lance Eaton. Full-time, I’m senior Associate Director of AI and teaching and learning at Northeastern. And then outside of that I've been teaching part-time at different places like North Shore Community College and College Un Bound for years now, and then I've been doing a whole lot of like, talks and workshops and consulting around AI in higher ed since pretty much like March, 2023. I think I have hit the hundred mark in terms of like talks and workshops that I've been doing. Just helping and, and thinking and, and working with folks to. Help figure this out. And it's been quite the trip. I'm located in Providence, Rhode Island, just for geographical sense. [00:04:27] Jason: Yeah. [00:04:28] John Nash: Yeah. That's excellent. So, so Lance, what are you noticing right now seem to be the experiences that faculty are having on what's working and what's not working with generative AI? [00:04:38] Lance Eaton: I mean, what is working is what has been working, and I go back to Autumm Caines of like, if you want to figure out how to navigate ai, good pedagogy. And like that, that there's a post she wrote back in 2023, the post is like, you know, the solution to Chat GPT is, is good pedagogy. So, I think that that's one thing is just recognizing good pedagogy is adaptable. It is, it is often thinking relationally with the students. In a lot of what I have been seeing is where there's the most success is also where it's often. And, and this is hard, but it's, its often where like faculty are engaged with students thoughtfully about how to navigate this, these new set of tools that are familiar to some things in the past and also new in certain ways and, and building that trust and that rapport. So I've seen that work really well. Also, like that can, like trying to find, you know, there's real struggle there because there's some spaces that doesn't work as well or it needs something else to move it along. So large enrolled classes, you've got 200 students. That becomes harder. Asynchronous courses also become more challenging in this. So, I think I've like, I've seen movement in that space. I think a lot of it is like what assignments are and what they should be, what they're assessing, how that, that gets structured is a lot of the discussion and a lot of the good discussion and, and things that I see people coming up with that get me excited. We're also in this cool moment where we get to figure out what it looks like next. I know that's hard to like hold onto because we're on this exhaustion wheel. Not just like, not just with AI, but like AI coming after the pandemic, the attack on higher ed and all of [00:06:26] Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:06:27] Lance Eaton: You know, government being shut down for a month at this point and like the impacts that's starting to have, so like there's, there's real hard things that are settled on our minds, but there is also, there's a way of looking at AI as a, oh, this means we, we are going to have to change and we get to change because we're realizing what I think a lot of what we've done certainly hasn't worked for everybody and at times relied elements of convenience that weren't necessarily great demonstrations of learning for, for different courses in different environments. So those are some things just kind of percolating in my, my head at the moment about like where my, where I want to put my attention. [00:07:09] John Nash: Something hit me because I caught you on the AI Diatribe podcast, which was on recently, and it was your

    44 min
  4. EP 38 - Canvas, Credentials, and the Agentic AI Classroom: Ryan Lufkin, VP of Global Academic Strategy Instructure

    12/17/2025

    EP 38 - Canvas, Credentials, and the Agentic AI Classroom: Ryan Lufkin, VP of Global Academic Strategy Instructure

    In EP 38, John and Jason talk with Ryan Lufkin of Instructure about the evolution of online learning, the impact of Agentic AI on education, and how Canvas is shaping the future of digital classrooms. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Guest Bio: Ryan Lufkin is the Vice President of Global Academic Strategy at Instructure, where he works to enhance the academic experience for educators and learners, worldwide. With over two decades in the edtech world, Ryan has experience with every major technology platform that institutions use to deliver education, from the LMS to the SIS, and all the systems in between. A well-known thought leader in the edtech industry, Ryan is a podcast co-host, frequent media spokesperson, and speaker at industry conferences and webinars. Ryan earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Public Relations/Communications from the University of Utah and certificates in Data-Driven Marketing and Brand Management from eCornell. Resources: Canvas LMS https://www.instructure.com/canvas EduCast3000 Podcast https://www.instructure.com/resources/podcast Chole 10 Report https://qualitymatters.org/qa-resources/resource-center/articles-resources/CHLOE-10-report-2025 Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript: We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! [00:00:00] John Nash: You, you ready? Jason? Anything else? [00:00:02] Jason: Nope. Just taking a drink, that's all. [00:00:04] John Nash: Alright, I'll let you do another one. [00:00:06] Jason: Yeah, that's [00:00:07] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Do the vocal exercises, you the [00:00:08] John Nash: yeah, me, Mimi. Red leather. Yellow leather. Yeah. [00:00:12] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Yeah. [00:00:13] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. [00:00:15] Jason (2): Hey, John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half, the Online Learning podcast. [00:00:20] John: Yeah, we're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but some of it still isn't. And so how are we going to get to the next stage, Jason? [00:00:35] **Jason:**John, that's a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it? [00:00:39] John Nash: Perfect. What do you want to talk about today? [00:00:42] Jason: Honestly, and I'm not just saying this 'cause Ryan's in the room, but one of our favorite ed tech tools, Canvas. And we're here today with Ryan Lufkin from Instructure to talk to us. Welcome, Ryan. [00:00:56] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Thanks for having me. I love these conversations. Looking forward to it. [00:00:59] Jason: Good. Why don't you just kind of describe the role that you play at Canvas? [00:01:04] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Yeah so I'm the Vice President of Global Academic Strategy which means I, I spent a lot of time talking about the trends that are impacting education across the globe. In that role, I travel all over the globe. Honestly, I was in Singapore and Meine Columbia and me. City and all over the United States this year. Talking about exactly the topics that you all focus on as well. How does technology impact learning experience good and bad? And what does that look like? And I've been within Instructure it's funny 'cause I always say Instructure the makers of Canvas because everybody, Canvas is a household name. Fewer people know the company name. [00:01:35] Jason: Right. [00:01:36] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: But I've been there for seven years now. I've been an ed tech for over 25 years, and I just love the company, love our mission. I love the focus and so it's, it truly is a pleasure to be able to come out and have these conversations. [00:01:47] Jason: Do you, do you work with anything other than Canvas at Instructure? Are you kind of over multiple things there, or? [00:01:55] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: It's honestly our entire suite. So I think a lot of people know that we bought Mastery Connect, which is an assessment tool. We bought Parchment which is a credentials tool which I, I've watched my kids use I've used myself to send your transcripts when you're applying for college and university and things like that. We've bought Badger the Credentials program. We bought Portfolio, which is a portfolio program. So we, we really, over the last 14 years have grown from just a single product company to a real ecosystem of solutions. And unlike, other companies, we don't buy our competitors we, we buy our closest partners and extend that, that that ecosystem. [00:02:29] John Nash: Yeah, so that's why you didn't buy Blackboard, you just decided to just destroy them. [00:02:34] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: We, in doing so, we evolved the market, right? And I always say Canvas came along when we were still having arguments about whether or not education over the, put data in the cloud and never moved towards SaaS solutions, right? And whatever be, open source. We're technically commercial open source. We publish our core code on GitHub as well. So to, to give people that peace of mind that, you own the code, that kind of [00:02:56] John Nash: Mm-hmm. [00:02:57] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: it was, it. Truly transform the market from that, your LMS systems that would go down every month when you got your little update disc in the mail to, 99.99% uptime. And when we have an outage, it's a big deal now across the industry, [00:03:10] John Nash: Right. [00:03:10] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Used to be super common. So it's been a bit of fun ride. [00:03:13] John Nash: Yeah. Yeah. Just that little bit you just described there, it really encapsulates how much has changed in just, , a decade or even, , 15 years. [00:03:22] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: been in it, yeah, if you've been in that change, it you take it for granted. [00:03:24] John Nash: Mm-hmm. [00:03:25] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: how much it's fundamentally changed over the last [00:03:27] John Nash: Yeah. [00:03:28] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: And, education has the reputation for moving slow. And in a lot of ways, we're moving faster than people think. [00:03:32] John Nash: Yeah, you're right. When you're in it, you forget. And again, we didn't have you on, so I could talk about all the other tools that are out there that we didn't like, but we used Adobe Connect for a long time and that was a, an abysmal failure for us that we, we just couldn't get it to go. And so I mean, we're just thankful to have tools that are stable and up and, and then even now thoughtful about instructional design. Well, that killed the conversation [00:03:55] Jason: we say all that to say we, . We're kind of, we're kind of fanning on Canvas today because we do, because we, as you said, we have been around. I mean, I think the first, not, I think the first LMS I used was, I it was Blackboard in that early stage 20 years ago. and at that point it was so bad that I just made my own websites basically for my for my students, right? And we're kind of left to that and a lot of, a lot of institutions were doing the same thing. It's like, these are so bad, we're going to make our own LMS system. At the time Canvas and others too have stepped into that gap and created products truly that work well. They're responsive both in the web sense of things, but also responsive to the users. Continue to get better. Run without a lot of outages are secure. , There's a lot of, lot of things that go into these LMS systems that, as John said, , it's easy to take, take for granted in in 2025. [00:04:55] Ryan Lufkin - Instructure: Yeah. And , there were four kind of key pillars when they founded the company, they were simple, engaging, open, and reliable. And the reliability piece was really the software as a service co-hosted right. Partnership with AWS. But that openness piece is one that, that still remains a massive differentiator for us, we have. I think publicly we see we've got 600, over 600 open APIs. We actually have 847 or something crazy like that. And then we, comply with the common standards like the LTI standard, right? To make sure that if oh, we've got over a thousand partners that have developed LTI apps that plug directly into Canvas. And, we were very clear. We don't own the data. We are caretakers of the data. We don't own the experience. We facilitate the experience for schools as much as possible. We've done everything possible, not kind out of. Create that walled garden that I think, other vendors that you may have mentioned earlier, I really tried to protect and box out competitors. We work with coopetition on a daily basis, right? And embrace terms like that, right? And so it's, for us, it's all about how do we facilitate our universities and K 12 institutions to, to build the. learning experience that they want. And whether that's working with our friends or more tenuous friends, we, we support that. [00:06:04] John Nash: Yeah, so Ryan, we're excited to talk about instructional design, thinking about online assessments thinking about where AI is going to play a role to lighten the workload, but not turn courses into some automated thing. But I think we would be remiss if I didn't start off with something that's kind of like the elephant in the room, which is where, , instructors are asking us all the time about AI agents and we've even done an episodes on it, , logging in, doing coursework. And in a recent episode of your podcast EDUcast 3000, put a little plug in there for you, I listened to your converse. Yeah. You and Zach Pend

    46 min
  5. EP 37 - Agentic AI is here. What does it mean for Online Education? A conversation with Anna Mills.

    12/01/2025

    EP 37 - Agentic AI is here. What does it mean for Online Education? A conversation with Anna Mills.

    In EP 37, John and Jason sit down with Anna Mills to discuss the reality of "agentic AI"—browsers that don't just assist students but can potentially become the student. We move past the panic to discuss advocacy, "humanizing" strategies, and how we can respond without giving up on online learning. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Guest Bio: Anna Mills is a leading voice in the responsible integration of AI in education, drawing on nearly two decades of teaching experience and a deep commitment to open educational resources. Her expertise spans AI literacy, academic integrity, and the critical use of AI in higher education, work informed in part by her role as the sole education specialist invited to test GPT-4 pre-release for OpenAI. She is widely recognized for her influential resource curation, national and international faculty development sessions, and published contributions in major higher-ed outlets. Mills also authors the widely adopted OER How Arguments Work and advises multiple AI-focused initiatives—you can find Anna Mills here on LinkedIn. Resources: Anna’s Substack (great summary of Agentic AI and Education / lots of links and resources) https://annamills.substack.com/p/the-time-to-reckon-with-ai-agents John’s LinkedIn post on how Comet Browser can impersonate a student in an online course John’s YouTube video showing Comet impersonating a student Anna’s LinkedIn post about Yun Moh’s request of Canvas. Annotated reading conversation Perusall Hypothe.sis Forbes’ Article “Colleges and Schools Must Block Agentic AI Browsers Now, Here’s Why” https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivalegatt/2025/09/25/colleges-and-schools-must-block-agentic-ai-browsers-now-heres-why/ (not mentioned but a good one!) Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! EP 37 Anna Mills - Oct 28, 2025 [00:00:00] John Nash: Hey. Quick pause we're collecting listener testimonials, and so if this show has influenced your thinking or your practice in any way, you can share that with us at onlinelearningpodcast.com. There's a link at the top of that page. You can't miss it. Just click that it takes just a second and we'd love your testimonial. [00:00:19] Jason: That's right, just right at the top in kind of obnoxious yellow font, to be honest. But it's a black background and so it's accessible, but still, you should see it at the top. We'd love your feedback. [00:00:31] John Nash: And if this conversation is useful. Take a moment to follow the show so you don't miss any new episodes in Apple Podcasts. Just tap the plus sign on the show page, and in Spotify just tapped the follow button. [00:00:44] Jason: Also, if you like this podcast, we'd love your rating. It helps us in the algorithms kind of bump to the top. So, in Apple Podcasts, you scroll all the way down and find the stars and put the stars in. In Spotify, you hit the three-button menu and then rate this podcast. We'd appreciate. [00:01:03] John Nash: So many steps, but I tell you it's worth it. Alright, to the episode. [00:01:08] Jason: To the episode. [00:01:09] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. [00:01:11] Jason: John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the Online Learning Podcast. [00:01:15] John Nash: We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but there's still some ways to go here. So how can we get to the next stage? Jason, [00:01:32] Jason: Well, how about we do a podcast and talk about it? [00:01:34] John Nash: I love that idea. What should we talk about today? [00:01:37] Jason: John, there's a lot of a lot of people talking on LinkedIn. This might be the end. [00:01:41] John Nash: Do you think so? Is this where I disclose that I am not actually hosting today, that my Comet browser is hosting for me today? [00:01:49] Jason: This is Comet John. You're doing a great job. It's very, it's almost as believable as the real John, and maybe we're not so bad off after all. But yeah, the, all the talk this week on LinkedIn has been about, agentic AI taking over. The one quote that I took away, I won't name the person, but, on a comment on LinkedIn, said, online asynchronous learning is cooked. And um, I've learned this is not a good thing from my son who uses this term. It can be a good thing somebody can be cooking like in a good way, but cooked means bad. [00:02:24] John Nash: Yep. Yep. So, we have someone in the house today who's going to take us down a path of thinking this through. This may actually be one of the episodes where we may accelerate this one out because this topic is so hot. And so, who have we got today? [00:02:39] Jason: Today we have Anna Mills, and we actually just met on LinkedIn because of some of the writing. She was doing around this, and so Anna, welcome to the podcast. [00:02:48] Anna Mills: Thank you. I'm very excited to be here and talk with you. I think it's pretty urgent and, [00:02:54] Jason: Yes, I wish. [00:02:55] Anna Mills: can do. [00:02:56] Jason: I wish it was under better circumstances, let's just say. No, this is actually the very circumstances why we have this podcast to talk about these things. And Anna, maybe first to give us some context - give us just a little bit of background for yourself and what your role and work is right now. [00:03:12] Anna Mills: Sure. I'm a community college writing teacher. I've taught for many years in the San Francisco Bay area, and I wrote an open educational resources textbook that's free online. I dove into discussions of AI in education and writing education. Before ChatGPT was released and I did some testing for Open AI early on and I an advisor on an app that invites students to use AI feedback. So, I've been interested in both using and critiquing AI. And I've been teaching online for some years now as well. And I've just been really active in social media discussions because I think we have to come together and join to find our way in this terrain. [00:03:55] Jason: Yes. [00:03:55] Anna Mills: glad there are a lot of educators out there doing that. [00:03:58] Jason: Yes, exactly. What do you teach online? Just out of curiosity? Do you use some writing? [00:04:03] Anna Mills: I teach English composition required academic reading and writing. Fundamental kind of support for thinking in college. You know, I think it's even more important now with AI to be able to read and write and edit and think critically but, doing that online asynchronously. How do we maintain some accountability - how do we maintain the value of that course credit when it can be outsourced? So that's where we are. I think it's going okay, it's shifting terrain, so. [00:04:32] Jason: Yeah. So, if you're teaching writing online, my guess is, as soon as the public ChatGPT went public three years ago now, that was probably a significant concern from you from the beginning, right? [00:04:44] Anna Mills: Yes, sure. And I give a lot of workshops on building your own multi-pronged strategy for reducing AI misuse if you're teaching writing online, asynchronous. think it starts with, good pedagogy and designing for intrinsic motivation and bringing in relationship and all the things that we do know how to do and can lean into. but I don't think that's enough. We have to have some guardrails too. So that's where I've gone into some process tracking, some AI detection, used non punitively very cautiously. [00:05:18] John Nash: So Anna, I'm wondering if you could give us a little level set on the main topic we're going to talk about today, because we might have new listeners that come in or are wondering, oh, agentic ai, and what are you talking about and what are we worried about? And there's probably just a baseline we could start from about what is mechanically occurring, and then we could talk about a little bit about what the growing concerns are. [00:05:43] Anna Mills: Yeah. It's really pretty simple. It's just a different paradigm from what we're used to with chatbots. agentic AI or an age agentic browser. What we're basically talking about is you're browsing the internet, you're also chatting at the same time, and you're chat bot browse for you. can click. can fill out forms, it can take action on that website. It can navigate to other websites. So, it's an extension. You're still prompting it, but it can also just keep going on its own including in a learning management system. And this is where the companies have been heading for some years now. It's just that it's only recently started to work reasonably and be more accessible to people who are either free customers or paying $20 a month. That's pretty recent. So, we have a release of the perplexity browser. They made it free to students for a year. Very recently. Then we also have a ChatGPT Atlas browser and all the other companies are working on about to release or have something in beta, so Anthropic and Google as well. So, they think this is the next big thing and it's now just starting to work for average users. Students are just becoming aware of it. [00:06:59] John Nash: One of the things that strikes me as you were describing this is that the agentic browser will browse with you. It can click for you; it can fill out forms. Before all this came out my password manager, I use LastPass, will also fill in forms for me, particularly when I shop, and that's maybe something everybody's used to. And so, w

    36 min
  6. EP 36 - Miriam Reynoldson: The Open Letter Shaking Up the AI-in-Education Conversation

    11/11/2025

    EP 36 - Miriam Reynoldson: The Open Letter Shaking Up the AI-in-Education Conversation

    In EP 36, John and Jason talk to Miriam Reynoldson of Melbourne, Australia, about the Open Letter From Educators Who Refuse the Call to Adopt Gen AI in Education. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too) Guest Bio: Miriam Reynoldson is a learning design specialist, educator, and design facilitator working across higher ed, VET, and professional learning. She is currently completing an interdisciplinary PhD exploring the value of learning beyond formal education in postdigital contexts. Miriam researches and writes about education, sociology, and philosophy, and teaches educational design at Monash University. You can connect with Miriam at https://www.linkedin.com/in/miriam-reynoldson/ or her blog https://miriamreynoldson.com/ Resources: The Open Letter: https://openletter.earth/an-open-letter-from-educators-who-refuse-the-call-to-adopt-genai-in-education-cb4aee75 The Library of Babel listserve space: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/assembly The Design Justice Network: https://designjustice.org/ Michelle Miller’s “Same Side Pedagogy”: https://michellemillerphd.substack.com/p/r3-117-september-15-2023-reflection Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Middle Music: Hello (Chiptune Cover) by RoccoW is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! Miriam Reynoldson EP 36 [00:00:00] Jason Johnston: Miriam, you are part of an open letter from educators who refuse the call to adopt gen AI in education. Would you, for us, summarize what this letter's about before we get into the details? Miriam: So it's a really short letter. It's a 400-word statement that essentially positions a certain stance for educators, in saying, "I choose not to use GenAI to teach, to assess to build my course materials. And I do not want to sell these products to students to do their work, either. John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. Jason Johnston: Hey John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the Online Learning Podcast. John Nash: Yeah. We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation that we've been having for the last almost three years now about online education. Look, [00:01:00] online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but a lot still isn't. And so how are we going to get to the next stage? Jason Johnston: John, that's a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it? John Nash: I think that's a great idea. What do you want to talk about, today, Jason Johnston: Today I'm not sure we've covered this at all. How about we talk a little bit about AI for a change, right? John Nash: Never Jason Johnston: That's a joke. Never heard of it. Well, I'm Just very excited today to be talking with Miriam Reynoldson. We connected on LinkedIn, and she is somebody I just really wanted to have this conversation with around ai. She's an instructor and a student, a learning designer in Melbourne, Australia. Welcome, Miriam. Would you maybe just introduce yourself to our listening audience a little bit? Miriam: No worries. I am a bit difficult to introduce because I really don't know where I am. I'm kind of juggling multiple identities at the moment and across multiple universities. So, [00:02:00] probably my primary identity in this conversation is mostly my teaching at Monash University. I'm also doing my PhD exploring non-formal learning in digitally mediated spaces at RMIT. I do a little bit of teaching there as well, and I'm also a digital learning design specialist. Jason Johnston: That's great. Yeah, we on LinkedIn and we'll probably talk a little bit more about how that came about, but a lot of it was around an open letter that you are part of an open letter from educators who refuse the call to adopt gen AI in education. And we'll include the link if anybody wants to preview that before we get into the conversation, we'll put the link in our, podcast. But Miriam, can you talk a little bit first about, how this open letter came about, what led you to do that and who you letter? open letter. Miriam: Yeah. The dirty secret really is that I was having a bit of a chat to a friend [00:03:00] of mine in Ohio, Melanie Dusseau, who as the first signature on the letter. And she had sent me a link to this letter that had been put together by Literary Hub in the us a consortium of publishers. And it was essentially a position from the public publishing industry. We don't support the use of AI to replace our authors, our editors or any part of the work that we do in furthering human creative expression. And I went to Melanie, "Why don't we have something like this, but for educators?" And I think she said to me, "Oh yeah, yeah, the Netherlands have just done that." And she sent me another one. And these amazing people, initially out of Radboud University in the Netherlands, had written this incredible really strongly worded letter presenting a position against the uncritical adoption of AI in academia. And I went, yeah, yeah, like that except not just [00:04:00] universities. So, we literally went, yeah, okay. We'll just we'll just put something together for like-minded educators who have made the personal choice and we're not going to say we're banning it or anything like that, but just essentially trying to create a space for educators like us who don't feel our voices are being heard. And I was going away for the weekend, so we kind of just whipped it up. Some exchange of messages. Melanie went, "Yeah, yeah, that's great. Let's go up." And it just went up and then kind of blew up. And so, I think we're just butting up against a thousand signatures now. But what's been much more striking to me is the hundreds of messages I've received from educators who are unable to publicly put their names to it but who feel profoundly sympathetic and struggling with the dissonance and challenges of being faced with mandates to adopt [00:05:00] or encourage students to adopt generative AI tools in their education spaces. So, I think that we're really just trying to create a space where It's safe to speak about how we feel. Even if that is not feeling, identical to the sentiment in the letter. Jason Johnston: Of these hundreds of educators that you've talked to, why do you think they feel like they support it, but they can't publicly support it. Miriam: It's a profoundly political situation. And we probably don't have enough time for a huge unpacking of global politics. And obviously I'm speaking to people in North America and I'm sitting here comfortably in down under. Jason Johnston: What's market like down under? Asking for a friend. Miriam: In university is absolutely shocking. So, I speak as a learning designer. That's been the vast majority of my career. And for learning designers, this is profoundly difficult [00:06:00] because we don't have our own syllabi, we don't have our own courses and our own ability to determine this is what our curriculum is going to be. We're there as support and we work with academics across universities to guide them, particularly in the technological aspects of the work that they're doing. And so, it generally means being agnostic to a whole range of things. But particularly to the technologies that are being trialed either by the academics or by the universities that have made partnerships with certain technology companies that makes it an incredibly political position to have more so for people in the third space than in academic roles. But as I'm sure you're both aware, academic freedom is a very fraught concept. And so, we, we do often self-censor because we're very [00:07:00] conscious of how tight the education job market is. Jason Johnston: it seems, anyways, yeah, that's a whole thing. It seems like we have educational freedom until we don't have it. Would you, for us just summarize what this letter's about before we get into the details? Miriam: No worries. So, it's a really short letter. We used a platform that doesn't allow hyperlinking. There's no references or anything like that. It's a 400-word statement that essentially positions a certain stance for educators, whether they're in K to 12 early childhood education, university, community education, professional training, any aspect of education. Walking in saying, "I choose not to use GenAI to teach, to assess to build my course materials. And I do [00:08:00] not want to sell these products to students to do their work, either. It's not about a ban. It's not about preventing students from making their own choices or evaluating the outcomes of those. So, from my perspective as a signatory, not as the author of the letter I work with my students really closely on their use of generative ai. protect their right respect to use it to if they choose that. Jason Johnston: Great. Well, it's a very well-crafted letter. What are your what are your first questions about this? What would you like to get into? John Nash: I just wanted to get into less of a question, but more of a maybe a reiteration of something you said, Miriam, which is that it's not a request for a ban. And I think if you read between the lines here it aligns with this idea that, there could be a world where large language [00:09:00] models could be developed and work in a way that we could all agree with if some of these issues were resolved, but they aren't. And the world we live in now looks like what is laid out here in the letter, and therefore if you agree with these notions, then you should be a signator to it, I think. So, I, could see how

    54 min

  7. 10/06/2025

    EP 35 - Educators with or versus AI? Grammarly, Canvas AI, and Cyborg Pedagogy

    In EP 35, John and Jason kick off fall 2025 with a conversation on how AI has been added to Grammarly and Canvas (whether we like it or not) and if the future of online learning will be formed by Cyborg pedagogy (and what that means).  See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Guest Bios: John Nash, PhD, is an associate professor of Educational Leadership at the University of Kentucky. Jason Johnston, PhD, is the Executive Director of Online Learning and Course Production at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Resources: Canvas and OpenAI Partnership Press Release Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript: We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! EP 35 - Educators with or versus AI? Grammarly, Canvas AI, and Cyborg Pedagogy Jason: But I'm looking forward to the, great list of potential guests that we have. I don't want to say any names yet 'cause nobody said yes yet. John: No. Jason: We don't have any yeses yet, John: Yeah. Everybody's just Jason: on the calendar yet John: our list is amazing, Jason: Yeah, we've got a great list. John: no one's, we haven't sent them invitations yet. Jason: Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess there's that too. So we haven't gotten any nos. That's a good part John: No. No. Jason: Yeah. John: No. Yes. I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. Jason: Hey, John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half, the Online Learning podcast. John: Yeah. We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for now our third season kicking off about online education. I know. And so, hey, newsflash, online learning is still trying to be great. Some of it is, a lot of it still isn't quite there, Jason. We're gonna keep talking about how to get it to the next stage. How are we gonna do that? Jason: That is a great question. How about we talk about today, what we're thinking about this fall as we head into this new school year and new season? John: Yeah, absolutely. It's been an interesting summer. Little things popping up here and there. I notice Grammarly's doing some interesting things. Looks like Canvas is doing some things. A lot of stuff on the horizon. Jason: . Yeah. And I would love to get into those, but I wanted to just kind of on the front end as we're kind of restarting the season, just even talk a little bit about, just a overall standpoint just for a moment here to talk about why we are doing this podcast. What do you think, John? Why are we doing this podcast again? John: I think we're doing this podcast for a couple of reasons. I'll throw out the very selfish reason why I'm doing this podcast. This is my professional development activity. This keeps me honest in terms of thinking about what I believe is important about teaching and learning online. It also gives me a chance to hear what you're thinking and I value your opinion and your philosophies a lot. And I think it also lets us share some ideas with like-minded people who are really interested in trying to make online teaching and learning better. Jason: Yeah. That's good. I've got a check mark beside all those. Always enjoy the conversation with you, John. This is a big part of wanting to do these. I always look forward to them and And we realized when we started adding guests to our podcast, although we really enjoy our conversations, but it just adds another element of another voice. And that's one thing I really value about bringing different guests with different viewpoints in. As we get started this year, I hope to bring in some different viewpoints, not just people that would just agree with everything that we have to say, but people that maybe would challenge us and challenge some of our approaches to online learning and integrating technology and trying to humanize online learning, all of those things. I would love to get into conversations with people who really push us to think more deeply and more concretely as well. Like, how is this really gonna play out? John: Yeah, I want to keep talking about that. I want to keep talking about as we're gonna probably chat about today as we think about the topics that I wanted to bring up things are getting a little more automated. The prevalence of AI across platforms is increasing and it's going to be a slippery slope, I think, for keeping humans in the loop. I think even the, sort of the sales scripts that are coming out are saying, it's almost as if it's saying, " you don't need as much humanity in the loop; we got this now." And I don't think that's the case. And I think I want to, I want to be a part of the band that's playing the song set that says, Hey folks, we need to stick together on this. We need to be humans in this loop and keep it all human centered. Jason: Yeah, I agree. Yep. Well, those seem like perfect themes to keep going on here in our podcast. And as part of that you were talking a little bit to me the other day about these kind of new features that Grammarly is rolling out. And a lot of people, I use Grammarly. I used it on my I use it often. Sometimes it's a little frustrating 'cause it just pops up everywhere it seems like now that I have it, installed on my computer, but I find it very helpful. I don't pay for it right now. I'm not being paid by them, but I find it very helpful to just have this grammar help. But it feels like they're moving into a new kind of AI era. John: Yeah. And what's interesting is here, in my department we have a doctoral program. We have an online curriculum. We held the first meeting of the new cohort of doctoral students and we talked about, tools that they might find useful in their doctoral journey. And we had some currently enrolled doctoral students, a couple of other professors. And Grammarly came up. And one of the new students asked " if I use Grammarly for like, changing my phrasing or things like that, is that gonna be considered cheating when in my new program with you?" And and I said, and my colleague, professor, colleague also concurred that I asked students to use Grammarly before they turn in their material. Because, as a mentor in a scholarly process, I want to be able to think about the ideas that they are bringing forth, and not necessarily the mechanics and correcting the copy. I want to jump right into the thinking. And so by running the typical Grammarly checker on subject verb agreement and clearing up things, that's fine. I like doing that. Now , I'm jumping into Grammarly and I'm seeing new features are popping up. And so it's interesting to think about what are these new AI agents that they're sticking in there that go beyond just checking your grammar as the name of the app says it's "Grammarly," right? We want, " please turn in your stuff having been checked for grammar." We like that 'cause we can get to the ideas. But what do we think about these new agents? I'm not so sure yet because they're, it's kind of interesting. Jason: yeah. And it's a good question by the student. I'm glad you're having the conversation. Right. It was like, it was just over a year ago, there was a university of North Georgia student who was placed on academic probation, accused of using AI for for creating a paper. Whereas she said that she just used Grammarly for fixing and getting feedback on some of the grammar, right? I think that we need to be thinking about what the features are as well as how we're having these conversations with students and where, where our limits are. So, what all did you find out about Grammarly as you were digging into it? Some of your thoughts. John: So Grammarly has all these agents now and stuff we knew about before, a plagiarism checker and some, but they have a paraphraser now, a reader reactions agent, A proof reader. Duh. That's why we use it. Jason: Yes. John: And AI grader. And so the AI grader. " Revise. Revise your writing with purpose and see your score improve, get feedback based on your assignment rubric and instructor expectations so you can make changes that count." " Estimate your grade, get early feedback. Revise with intention and submit confidently." So it's an agent that "estimates your score based on your assignment rubric and your instructor's grading style." Oh boy. It "provides personalized feedback, allowing you to see how your writing aligns with the assignment requirements and make adjustments to improve your grade. Ideal for all types of written assignments." " It's designed for students who want to predict how their work will land with their instructor and take control of their grades." I mean, I guess, well, I mean, wouldn't it be nice if you just had a good relationship with your instructor? Jason: That does feel ideal. But at the same time, I mean, we've always . Encourage students to use like a tutor of some sort if they're struggling, right. To be John: Yeah, Jason: able to understand assignments and to help them achieve higher levels of learning and achievements in the classroom. John: They've also thrown in an AI detector. So how ironic with the University of North Georgia student: will Grammarly detect itself being used and therefore go into some kind of a death loop? I don't know. I mean, Jason: Or, like, when somebody is like supplying weapons to two sides of a war or something like that, right? So, John: yes. Jason: it kind of feels a little bit like they're work in both sides of the equation here. John: I may have to experiment with this 'cause I wonder how it gets the student to... Look, i'll be honest. I mean, I do the best I can. You do too. We all have colleagues that aren

    35 min
  8. EP 34 - The Evolution and Future of Online Learning with Dr. Judith Boettcher

    02/24/2025

    EP 34 - The Evolution and Future of Online Learning with Dr. Judith Boettcher

    In EP 34, John and Jason discuss with Dr. Judith Boettcher the evolution of online learning, the importance of instructional design, and the centrality of student engagement. The conversation also touches on project-based learning, AI's impact on education, and the critical role of teacher-as-mentor. Tune in for an insightful discussion on making online learning more effective, human, and future-ready. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com Join Our LinkedIn Group - *Online Learning Podcast (Also feel free to connect with John and Jason at LinkedIn too)* Learn more about Dr. Judith Boettcher on her website: http://designingforlearning.info/about-dr-boettcher/ Resources: PLATO Computer System Judith’s Website Judith’s book: Online Teaching Survival Guide (2021) Jason’s other top Online Teaching Books Michelle Miller “Minds Online” Flower Darby - “Small Teaching Online” Catherine Denial “Pedagogy of kindness” Judith’s article: Student-Centered Learning in Dewey’s Holodeck – It Doesn’t Get Any Better than This—Now! IHE article - The Absurdity of Asynchrony Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License. Transcript We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections! [00:00:00] Jason: Today is a fulfillment of a little bit of a dream of mine. Do you know this? So thank you for helping me fulfill one of my dreams. [00:00:06] Judith: Wow. Sounds like excellent planning, Jason! [Intro Music] [00:00:10] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston. [00:00:13] Jason: Hey, John. Hey, everyone. And this is Online Learning in the Second Half, the online learning podcast. [00:00:19] John Nash: Yeah. We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the past. Wow. Are we going to start our third year of this soon? Yeah. [00:00:28] Jason: I guess so. [00:00:30] John Nash: About online education, online learning has had its chance to be great and some of it is, but still a lot of it isn't. So how are we going to get to the next stage, Jason? [00:00:39] Jason: That is a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it? [00:00:44] John Nash: I'd love to do that. What do you want to talk about today? [00:00:47] Jason: Well, I'm very excited today, John, because we have a very special guest with us. Somebody that I've been reading her work now for a while and it is Judith Betcher. Judith, welcome. [00:01:00] Judith: Well, thank you very much for being here. I'm delighted to be part of your series. [00:01:04] Jason: Yeah, well, it's so great to have you. Judith, why don't you tell us just a little bit about kind of your your background? What have you been up to for the last little while? I know that a big part of your life is online learning and you've done it both in various capacities. So just tell us a little bit. [00:01:19] Judith: well, actually, getting ready for this podcast, I started going back and thinking, and when you're as old as I am, that's kind of dangerous, you realize, and I thought, Oh my God, my first experience with anything approaching online learning was when I was working for a computer company and we were building and designing. What was called at that time computer based instruction. So, as man, as we've moved along here, over these years, I was thinking it's actually online learning has become it actually is a merging of the computer based instruction movement with the traditional distance learning, in the old distance learning correspondence learning. So what we have Today in 2025 is really elements of all of these different movements, starting back with the like I said, the computer based instruction movement. [00:02:11] Jason: Yeah, that's great. And do you mind me asking what year that might have been with a computer based instruction? I just think it's interesting to think about historically our, trajectory with online learning. [00:02:24] Judith: Yes, actually, I will confess that was the decade of the 80s and it was with control data corporation in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And at that time we built computer based instruction and it was designed. For the Plato system, which was a mainframe computer application. And so then I'm afraid I have lived through moving from the mainframe application to the microcomputers, to the now, of course, to the powerful computers that we Carry in our pockets and our watches on our arms, it's been quite a journey to be honest, but after I finished that work at Control Data, that was when I went to Penn State and at that time for a few years there at Penn State. I Managed a group very similar to what it sounds like you do, Jason. I had a group at that time, the folks at Penn State were very innovative and forward thinking, in that we, I had a group of instructional designers and video folks, and, programming folks, and we. Assisted faculty in, we actually would load up a van and put, computers, these huge computers, and take them around campus and set them up and say, wow, look what you could, Mr. Faculty Member, what can, what, see what you can do with these computers. It was quite, it was, it's been quite an adventure to be honest. [00:03:47] John Nash: You bring back memories, Judith, because my dissertation at the University of Wisconsin contained the word microcomputer in the title. Um, that's what the desktop computers were. They were like, just, yeah, it's funny. We still don't use that term because basically we're just all running microcomputer, microcomputers on our desks, but we don't use that anymore. The Apple IIe days. Yes. Right. Yeah. [00:04:10] Judith: Yes. Yes, exactly. But anyway, and to finish up a little bit after Penn State, I moved down here to Tallahassee, to Florida State, and in, in part of this time period, I did start consulting with with faculty who were teaching online at Duquesne University. in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And as I, start was consulting and meeting with them, I started developing these tips and ideas and best practices. And as you can anticipate, it was all of that work, the tips and the practices. When I found myself repeating myself over and over again, that was when I decided, well, maybe a book would be a good idea. So that was kind of the genesis of the survival guide for teaching online. [00:04:58] Jason: And that's really how I came to know you, Judith. and I was talking to John about this. Today is a fulfillment of a little bit of a dream of mine. Do you know this? Of being able to have you on the podcast. A little bit of a goal. So, [00:05:09] Judith: No [00:05:10] Jason: yeah, because these are the four books, and I'm being honest about this. Well, three, these are the three books, actually, over a long time I've I have recommended to people. And then I've added one, in the fall Michelle Miller's "Minds Online." Flower Darby's Small Teaching Online, and then your book, the Online, Teaching Survival Guide. And then recently added, because it just came out in the fall, Catherine Denial's Pedagogy of Kindness, which is not an online book, but is such an important book, I think, particularly for this day and age. So those are my four book recommendations for people that want to get going online with practical tips and not so much from a development standpoint, more from a teaching standpoint. So first year we had Michelle Miller on the show, and then last year we had Flower Darby and Catherine Denial on the show, and now you are joining us today. So thank you for helping me fulfill one of my dreams. [00:06:08] Judith: Wow. Sounds like excellent. [00:06:15] Jason: Well, and it wasn't actually too calculated, except that, as John and I are talking just about what kinds of, people and conversations we want to have on this show, we realized we started almost two years ago. And, we realized we kind of just jumped into things. We started talking about making your online courses more human and creating student agency. And we talked a lot about AI and about some of the risks and challenges and opportunities around that. And we haven't really gone back to talk about more foundational teaching online. Because it's online learning in the second half, we're kind of positioning it as looking back on the first half of online learning. Now, , we know how to dump information on people now online, right? We can do it. What do we hope for in our second half of online learning? And as John and I are peering into our second halves of life and well into our second halves of lives, we're thinking about that in terms of online learning. So , that's a long introduction to say this is one of the reasons why we have you on today. So, [00:07:19] Judith: Well, let me just mention, I did start listening to the podcast on the Pedagogy of Kindness, and I didn't get very far because I ran out of time this morning, but I look forward to going back. It sounds like a great, perspective to add to our designing. And in fact, then, to add to that. The whole reason my website is called Designing for Learning is that's my passion Whenever I started working with faculty, trying to ask them the question is what is it, what are the outcomes, the takeaways that you really want your students to take away from a course I'll see if I can remember this. Remember there's that five minute short video of the person, who tried to summarize the college education in five minutes, and he said, okay, here's what I learned from Spanish, como esta, and that was it, that was the total impact, from the whole Spanish, sequence. And similarly, so just when we have our wonderful students, who'd commit to time and energy and focus. What, in fact, and how will they change as a result of those experiences? And I think if w

    53 min
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About

In this podcast, John Nash and Jason Johnston take public their two-year-long conversation about online education and their aspirations for its future. They acknowledge that while some online learning has been great, there is still a lot of room for improvement. While technology and innovation will be a topic of discussion, the conversation will focus on how to get online learning to the next stage, the second half of life. Click here to give us feedback on our podcast!

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  • Creator
    John Nash & Jason Johnston
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    41
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2023 All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    Online Learning in the Second Half