Overloaded: Understanding Neglect

Institute for Child and Family Well-being

Overloaded: Understanding Neglect explores the complex crisis of child neglect and family separation in America, where 37% of all US children experience a Child Protective Services investigation and nearly 70% of children in foster care are separated from their families due to neglect. Hosted by Luke Waldo, Director of Program Design and Community Engagement at the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, this podcast builds a shared understanding of neglect as a preventable public health crisis. Through conversations with national and local research and policy experts, inspiring changemakers, and lived experience leaders, we examine the forces that overload families - from poverty and social isolation to systemic racism and institutional failures - and explore innovative pathways toward solutions. Across four seasons, we've journeyed from understanding the problem to identifying Critical Pathways - Economic Stability, Social Connectedness, Community Collaboration, and Workforce Inclusion and Innovation - from transforming systems to examining the stories that shape our beliefs and actions. Each season builds on the last as part of the Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative, bringing together those who know these issues best to reimagine how we support families and prevent the separations that tear them apart. We believe neglect is preventable. Join us as we work together to change the conditions and improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

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  1. EPISODE 1

    Tilling the Soil for Social Change

    Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4 Show Notes: Episode 1: Tilling the Soil for Social Change Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Experts: Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks InstituteDr. Nadine Burke Harris – ACE Resource Network and former California Surgeon GeneralSamantha Mellerson – Haywood Burns InstituteDr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma AcademyRepresentative Annessa Hartman – Oregon State RepresentativeDesmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration Coalition00:00-01:59 – Luke Waldo - Over the past three seasons of Overloaded we have explored the forces that overload families, from poverty to social isolation, systemic racism to mistrust of our systems. But this season, we're looking at something more invisible, the stories behind these forces… [Media clips about narratives behind overloaded families and child welfare] 2:00-3:16 – Luke Waldo - Changing those narratives takes intention, courage and collective effort. Together, we can tell a story that uplifts instead of blames, that prevents harm before it happens. In season four, we're taking apart the stories that define our families, our communities and our future and building better ones together.  You will hear from the inspiring changemakers that I had the honor of interviewing this past summer at the 2025 Prevent Child Abuse America national conference for their podcast The Shift: Voices of Prevention. 3:17-3:53 – Jessica Moyer – “What we're seeking to change are things that are really entrenched, really embedded. I mean, culture doesn't move quickly.”  3:53-3:58 – Luke Waldo – What is a narrative? 3:58-6:23 – Jessica Moyer – “Narratives are made up of lots of different stories. So narratives are kind of patterns in stories.” Defining narrative, stories, mental models, and framing. “Which ones do we want to kind of cultivate and activate and queue up and utilize, and which are the ones that are holding us back? Which are the ones that are maybe being activated by default but not really helping us? Which ones are unproductive? And how do we steer clear of those? And we do think of it in terms of kind of like we love a good explanatory metaphor at FrameWorks, but we think of it as kind of like tilling the soil for social change. So it's about laying the groundwork that will enable all kinds of decisions and collective actions that will have an impact. But the change that we're seeking is slow, and it happens over a long period of time.” 6:23-7:04 – Luke Waldo – “…narrative is such a powerful force that it impacts how we aspire, where we put our empathy, and even how we react to how trauma affects us and those we love.” 7:04-7:21 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “Let me tell you one of these stories that we've been telling ourselves, one of the stories that we've been telling ourselves as a society is that talking about trauma and adversity does harm.” 7:21-7:58 – Luke Waldo – Even when evidence changes or even our realities, old stories linger, shaping what we see, the way we act and what we ignore. But why? Or maybe how is a better question. How do our mindsets and the narratives that may shape or change them work? How does it all function? 7:58-9:34– Jessica Moyer – “Mindsets are those deeply held, kind of latent, sort of default patterns and thinking they're different from public opinions, because we're not always even aware that we're holding them. They're sort of kind of lenses on the world that we share, that influence how we see the world, how we process new information, and they are durable.” “Framing has to do with that, the way that we tell stories, the way that we present information. Framing involves lots of different choices in how we communicate. And anytime we're communicating, we're framing. So framing involves things like, what do we put into a particular message? What are the things that we don't say? What tone do we adopt? What values do we appeal to? How do we explain particular concepts? What examples do we draw on to make a particular point or to explain a particular concept?”  9:34-9:58 – Luke Waldo – “Let’s imagine this all as a tree. If mindsets are the roots, narratives are the trunk. And were we to step back … way back… far enough to see it all … framing is how we describe the forest.” 9:58-10:24 – Jessica Moyer – “Choices, but a lot of times, we're making those choices without realizing that we're making them or making them without realizing what impact they'll have.” 10:24-10:38 – Luke Waldo – “And yet, over and over again, we are often making the same choices, choosing the same narratives and treading the same path. Why is that?”  10:38-10:49 – Samantha Mellerson – “Somehow we've become so conflict averse that we dare not present an idea that's different or that may be perceived as against the norm of what's happening, right?” 10:49-11:03 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “I think part of the issue is that people tend to view the world and problems from their frame of reference, from where they're standing.” What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey11:03-11:42 - Luke Waldo – But what I love about Frameworks’ approach, and what I’ve learned through Overloaded, is that framing isn’t manipulation, or coercion or even persuasion. It’s stewardship. It’s about creating the conditions, the mental space where truth and empathy can coexist. Or even better: where it can thrive. How might we do that in the face of harmful, dominant narratives? 11:42-16:13 - Jessica Moyer – Exploration of the individualism and “care matters most” mindsets. 16:13-16:44 - Luke Waldo – “Those mental models are then reinforced by narratives, which can lead to how we behave, pass laws, on-board practices and procedures; it reinforces how we see our overloaded parents, caregivers, and families.” 16:44-17:32 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “And so by and large, really, you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago, uh, the majority of people that were solving problems around education, child welfare, mental health were looking at it through the lenses of an adult.” 17:32-19:00 - Luke Waldo – Story about fatherhood and the “empty vessel” myth. 19:00-19:28 - Annessa Hartman – “I think one common story I often hear from people is that we keep people poor so that they can stay on these services.” 19:28-20:23 – Luke Waldo – “Time and time again, history tells us that when we accept dominant narratives uncritically, we make decisions, often motivated or informed by fear or suspicion, not understanding or empathy.” [Media clips about overloaded families and child welfare] 20:23-23:32 - Jessica Moyer – “What we found to be most effective in the end was to sort of redefine care itself, to define care much more broadly, to define care as something that is a collective endeavor.” 23:32-24:09 - Luke Waldo – “And what Jess is saying is that by broadening our definition of, in this case, care, we turn empathy into infrastructure for better, more constructive narratives. This is where narrative becomes strategy.” 24:09-24:16 - Annessa Hartman – “We need people who understand what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck.” 24:16-24:32 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “Form real relationships.” 24:32-25:05 - Desmond Meade – “…if we can get people to love who, what they despise the most, or who they hate the most, then they're capable of loving everyone, right?” 25:05-26:47 - Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “The more you just kind of scrape under the surface and start to look at how these odds are set, right, the more, the easier it is you to recognize the embedding of some of these structural inequities in our society.” 26:47-27:17 – Luke Waldo - When we tell stories that reflect our interdependence, we make it possible for systems to act on that truth. A final, if not nagging, question Season 4 seeks to answer: How do we do that?  27:17-29:01 – Jessica Moyer – “So expanding that concept of care to something that's collective, inclusive and expansive, I think, is something that everybody can do.” 29:01-30:40 - Luke Waldo - Narrative change is patient, strategic work. It’s about returning, again and again, to the same truth: that families thrive when communities do. Every conversation, every story, every small policy that affirms that truth, it all tills the soil. And over time, that soil grows something new: belonging, stability, and shared possibility. I would like to again thank Prevent Child Abuse America for their partnership and the opportunity to co-host their podcast, The Shift: Voices of Prevention, at their 2025 national conference. If you’d like to hear the full episodes where the many voices and clips that you heard today came from, find The Shift: Voices of Prevention wherever you listen to this podcast or you can find the links below. From Pain to Power: Dr. Nadine Burke Harris on Healing and PreventionQuantum Leap Possibilities of Prevention with Dr. Bruce PerryReimagining Together: Seeding System Success with Samantha Mellerson and Tshaka BarrowsLove as a Force for Justice with Desmond MeadePolicy Through Lived Experience with Rep. Annessa HartmanFraming Family Well-Being: From Blame to Belonging | Jessica MoyerIn our next episode, Jess Moyer joins me in the studio to go deeper. We'll explore the mechanics of how narratives work, how mindsets get activated, how stories reinforce or challenge those patterns, and most importantly, how we can make strategic choices in our framing to shift culture and policy. If you've been wondering how to actually apply these ideas in your work, your conversations, or your community, episode two is where we dig into the how. 30:40 - Luke – Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to le

    32 min

  2. EPISODE 2

    "We Need Both": The Science and Stories of Strategic Communication with Jessica Moyer

    Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4 Show Notes: Episode 2: “We Need Both”: The Science and Stories of Strategic Communication Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Experts: Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks InstituteClaudia Rowe – National Book Award Finalist and Seattle Times Dr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma AcademyDesmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration Coalition00:00-04:22 – Luke Waldo - Jess Moyer and her metaphors from our first episode still have me thinking. Tilling the soil for social change. Not persuading, not convincing, but rather creating the conditions for new ways of thinking to grow. But what exactly are we tilling? What lies beneath the surface that needs turning over? Introduction to Jess Moyer and her bio. I'm honored that Jess has joined us again to serve as my copilot for breaking down and analyzing some of the powerful narrative change efforts that we are hearing this season from many of our other guests. But before we get into some of that conversation, let's start again with what Jess and FrameWorks Institute do and why it's so important in this moment we are living in. 4:22-6:26 – Jessica Moyer – “FrameWorks is a social science research and advocacy organization. We study the relationship between culture and communication, how each of those things kind of shapes and is shaped by the other. And we are really interested in how we can use our communications to engage with how we think as a culture in our sort of shared cultural practices. Our mission is about framing the public discourse and building public will for positive social change.”  6:26-8:03 – Luke Waldo – Could you elaborate on the difference between a story or an anecdote about a family, for example, and a narrative that pattern of stories? And how does a strategically framed story interrupt an entrenched, harmful narrative? 8:03-10:07 – Jessica Moyer – “Each of those stories, it fills in the details in their own particular ways, but there are common patterns across those stories, and that that commonality is the shared narrative.”  The “Bootstraps” narrative and The Pursuit of Happyness. The Pursuit of Happyness– Chris Gardner10:07-10:40 – Will Smith - “and don't ever let somebody tell you you can't do something, not even me. All right. You got a dream. You got to protect it. People can't do something themselves. They want to tell you, you can't do it. You want something. Go get it. Period.” The Pursuit of Happyness movie10:40-11:52 – Jess Moyer – “I think an important takeaway here is that it's an insight of the work of narrative change, that we can make some choices. It sometimes seems inevitable that a story gets told in the way that it does, but actually we can tell the same story in so many different ways, and the different ways that we tell it have different implications for how we think in general and can bring about different effects.” 11:52-12:25 – Luke Waldo – I'm going to use an example that I just heard from Claudia Rowe, who wrote a book called Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care. And she talks about a similar Pursuit of Happiness and bootstraps story in which a young man in foster care enters foster care when he's 11,12 years old…  Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care – Claudia Rowe12:25-15:13 – Claudia Rowe and Luke Waldo – The story of Jay and the mentor 15:13-16:10– Luke Waldo – But I'm curious, why do we either ignore that part of the story, right, that that in many ways, our success is as much an outcome of the other people in our lives that believe in us, that invest in us, that lift us up, that pick us back up, right? That, that they, they, they help us put those boots on so that we can pull ourselves up by those bootstraps, right? Why is that part of the story often times ignored, or, for that matter, in some cases, just not told? 16:10-20:03 – Jessica Moyer – “The individualism mindset is so strong and so dominant, it's really easily activated.” “I think it's also, I mean, it's interesting to think about that person's story and the alternative tellings that are, that maybe require a little bit more work, because we have to get we have to first recognize what the default thinking is, and then actively choose to take a different approach, to try to understand what are the other mindsets that are available that we might want to work hard to to queue up and to build on.” 20:03-21:10 – Luke Waldo – We have to be cognizant of the fact that there are many dominant narratives oftentimes at play in the same moment. We're put in a position where we if we want to get to curious, we have to really start to ask ourselves, why all of those particular narratives are being triggered in the first place, right? 21:10-22:01 – Claudia Rowe and Luke Waldo – “And as Claudia Rowe, again, said quite a bit in our conversation, is she wanted to tell this story because she was continuously struggling with, she's always been struggling with these, you know, these monikers, these, these frames of she talked about the monster…”  22:01-22:57 – Luke Waldo – So what is the single most common and harmful framing choice you see advocates make when talking about issues like child welfare or family well-being, and what specific framing choice or choices could or should replace it? 22:57-27:02 – Jessica Moyer – “…some framing choices are harmful, but they're actually a whole lot more of them that are just maybe not actively harmful, but kind of get us stuck, or kind of fail to get us unstuck.” Communication traps. 27:02-29:24 – Luke Waldo – So in the season, we've heard from Dr Bruce Perry. He talks in in his conversation, and again, hear this whole conversation at The Shift, but he does talk at one point about how people have really connected when he talks about about the brain, the brain feels like science… The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Bruce Perry29:24-29:46 - Dr. Bruce Perry – “…because the brain's interesting, and for many people, it feels and this is probably not fair, but it feels more like science than when you talk about social science or psychology, which a lot of people have weird biases about. We're saying the same thing. But if you use kind of brain examples, people go, Oh, the brain.” 29:46-30:23 - Luke Waldo – Building off what you just said from a FrameWorks perspective, what is the value of kind of explanatory metaphors, again, like tilling the soil for social change, while also really pairing it or supporting it with concrete science or research or evidence? And do you feel like either the kind of metaphors, the storytelling or the concrete science is more powerful in changing culture and mindsets? 30:23-34:11 – Jessica Moyer – “That's a great question and a fun one to answer, and I'm I think the short answer is that we need both. We absolutely need both to bring science into our communications. And metaphors are a natural way of thinking and talking. We use them all the time, oftentimes without even realizing that we're using them. But also, an interesting thing is, like you sort of alluded to, metaphors are really, are an effective explanatory tool, and that makes them really well suited to translating science. In fact, the earliest work that FrameWorks did was to translate the science of early childhood development the science of brain development, you know, starting in in the earliest days and weeks of life.” FrameWorks Institute – Early Childhood and Brain Science34:11-35:07 – Luke Waldo – So how do you recommend communicators, or how do you recommend that communicators practically do this without losing kind of the human element of the story? And what specific details or contextual factors should we always put in and never leave out? 35:07-37:17 - Jessica Moyer – “I think of it as being about telling a fuller story about people and about our lives and experiences, because we we don't, we don't exist in a vacuum, right? We interact with our surroundings, and we're influenced by our environments, and we influence our environments, and we're shaped by our relationships and the spaces that we occupy. So that's part of putting parents or putting anyone in context is sharing the full kind of experience of their being and everything that they come in contact with and are in relationship with.” 37:17-37:49 - Luke Waldo – What are a few examples of policies or programs that become kind of legible or good examples of forms of caregiving when framed this way? And you know, for one instance, one that we talk about a lot in our work. How do we reframe a discussion about, say, housing assistance as a form of care?  37:49-40:48 – Jessica Moyer – “I think just by making the connection explicit, and that doesn't have to be a complicated framing choice. Oftentimes really subtle, kind of seemingly very minor, framing choices can have big impacts. In this case, it really matters if we name that there's a connection between, for example, housing policies and the well-being of children, and it's not that hard for folks to see. And also that that lexicon of care, the language of caregiving, is an effective way to do that gives us some tools for doing that.”  40:48-41:42 – Luke Waldo – Desmond Meade in particular speaks really powerfully about how narratives of the other or them can lead to the dehumanization or demonization of groups of people. He then talks about reframing and building a narrative to activate a sense of us, and he does that through this idea of love. The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Desmond Meade41:42-42:00 - Desmond Meade – “How I push it up is having people see a reason to love someone. No, I think the key is, if we can get people to love who, what they despise the most, or who they hate the most, then they're capable of loving e

    51 min

  3. EPISODE 3

    The Stories We Tell Ourselves

    Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4 Show Notes: Episode 3: The Stories We Tell Ourselves Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Experts: Annessa Hartman – Oregon State RepresentativeDr. Nadine Burke Harris – ACE Resource Network and Former California Surgeon General Desmond Meade – Florida Rights Restoration CoalitionTshaka Barrows – Haywood Burns InstituteSamantha Mellerson – Haywood Burns InstituteDr. Bruce Perry – Child Trauma AcademyJessica Moyer – FrameWorks Institute00:00-02:20 – Luke Waldo - So far this season, we’ve tracked the big picture, the public narratives that shape our culture. We’ve examined the harmful patterns where radical individualism intersects with caregiving that turns collective crises into personal failures and therefore shrink our sense of shared responsibility. But today, we’re going inward. Today, we turn inward to examine those internal filters, our mental models—the deeply held beliefs that too often divide us and limit our own capacity for change. Today, we are asking: What happens when those filters limit us? What happens when the stories we tell ourselves keep us from seeing our own power, or the humanity of the person standing right next to us? This is Episode 3: The Stories We Tell Ourselves. 2:20-2:33 – Media Clips 2:33-2:57 - Luke Waldo – But it’s also a deeply personal one. Before we can change the systems that serve families, we often have to rewrite the internal scripts that tell us we can’t.  2:57-3:46 – Annessa Hartman – “I had no dreams of becoming a politician by any means, and I ran really with the like conviction that every single person deserved to be at all levels of government, that if certain people can run for higher office, Why can't someone who went to culinary school, who was raised by a single mom who we, you know, had to choose between whether or not she was going to pay a bill versus putting food on the table? Like, why can't people with lived experience be in these positions?”  The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Annessa Hartman3:46-5:07 – Luke Waldo - That is the internal narrative work. It is a story we now tell ourselves because it's the dominant narrative that's been told to us over the years.  [Media Clips] How high we reach is often determined by the limits of our imagination. Our imagination is built on the stories that we’ve been told and those that have been withheld or dismissed as unattainable and inaccessible.  It’s why Annessa had to dismantle a story that said "people like me don't belong in power". 5:07-5:55 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – “One of the things that you learn when you're a child and you're exposed to huge amounts of trauma and it persists is is that if you raise your voice, it doesn't do anything. And in my adult life, it has been very important for me to rewrite that narrative, to say, you know what? If I speak up, it does make a difference. We can change outcomes for people.” The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris5:55-7:07 – Luke Waldo – If we believe the story that our voice doesn't matter, we create and maintain systems that are unresponsive and unaccountable to us, but if we rewrite that script, we create openings for change. In our first episode, Jess Moyer from FrameWorks warned us about the "individualism" mindset, the idea that people end up where they are solely because of their own choices. When we tell ourselves that story about a parent involved in the child welfare system, or a person returning from incarceration, we distance ourselves. We create an "Other." 7:08-7:48 – Desmond Meade – “The United States, before they bombed Hiroshima Nagasaki, they engaged in this narrative campaign that desensitized people as to the humanities of Japanese and actually dehumanized them, right? And and and and in doing so, when they did drop the bomb and killed all these kids and women, they were celebrating in the streets. Think about it, celebrating in the streets. That's the power of the narrative. A narrative actually controls how we react to atrocities.” [Media Clip] The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Desmond Meade7:48-8:10– Luke Waldo – Narrative controls how we react to atrocities. It controls whether we celebrate suffering or mourn it. Desmond’s antidote to this dehumanization isn’t a policy paper. It’s a memory. A story from his childhood that challenges harmful narratives that keep us apart. He calls it the "poison pill" to polarization. 8:10-9:45 – Desmond Meade – “And that poison pill, I believe, is this connectivity that we have.” The story about Amy. Let My People Vote – Desmond Meade9:45-10:15 – Luke Waldo – If only there were a way to challenge the narrative of division, a cure-all, a simple way to reframe the “Other” into someone familiar. How might you do that? And if you and your organization have been nominated for a Nobel Peace prize for changing hearts and minds of millions of people, you likely had to wrestle with that very question. 10:15-10:53 – Desmond Meade – “Whenever I approach somebody, right? First question I ask Do you know anyone who you love who's ever made a mistake? You know what I say? I say anybody who you love or care about who's ever had a felony conviction. See the difference? You see what I just did, right? Do you know anyone who you love who's ever made a mistake? Right? See what I did there, right? Well, number one, love, right? Number two, it's somebody who you love that you're connected to. And it's not those people, right?”  10:53-11:19 – Luke Waldo – This is narrative change in action. It shifts the mindset from punishment to shared experiences to empathy. 11:19-11:52 – Annessa Hartman – “If someone could just learn to like help their neighbor instead of just immediately judgment and like learn it, like lean in with curiosity rather than immediate judgment, like what could that do for people? And I think that the same thing could be said in an agency lens, right? Like um, if someone is dealing with substance use, not your bad parent, but why? Like, and what can we do to help you instead of judging you in that way?” 11:52-12:28 – Luke Waldo – But what happens when these old stories, stories of judgment, of separation, of hierarchy, get told over and over again that they feel stuck as if poured in concrete? They become the foundations of our systems. 12:28-13:01 - Tshaka Barrows – “…I often ask people to think about, you know, our railroad tracks and the system that moves all of the cargo across this country. People every day are on these railroad tracks. The width of them. Was it based on study? Is it the most advanced width, you know, that we could come up with? Or is it based on the horse and buggy that they used to build that first set of tracks? And are we still limited by that? Absolutely. That's infrastructure. You know, that's what we're trying to think about in terms of human services and this opportunity to reimagine.” 13:01-13:39 – Samantha Mellerson – “I think it's really important to acknowledge when these systems and institutions were created, they were created for certain folks in mind. We had a lot of people in the population that were not considered human at that time, right? … When you look at the even the history, the root of these foundations, these institutions are rooted in systemic inequities, right? Very deliberate in a time of racial hierarchy.” The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Tshaka Barrows and Samantha Mellerson13:39-14:16 – Luke Waldo – If the tracks were built on a narrative of exclusion, we cannot simply "reform" our way to justice. We have to tell a new story about what the tracks are for, what they are capable of and what they are not. 14:16-15:15 – Dr. Bruce Perry – “There are systems, there are mechanisms that want to put you back in equilibrium. So the status quo of a group is very hard to change, and there are lots of mechanisms that keep, maintain the status quo. And usually your view of the world is something that centers you, that involves the system accumulating resources and power and taking it up to you. And so it's the very rare person who is open-minded enough to actually see that I, we need to change something that will take power away from me.” The Shift: Voices of Prevention – Dr. Bruce Perry15:15-15:26 – Luke Waldo – The story of the system, then, is often the story of self-preservation. To change it requires what Tshaka Barrows calls "reimagining." It requires us to believe that a different way is possible. 15:26-15:53 – Tshaka Barrows – “We need examples of humans figuring it out. What does that look like? Why is our creative juices not pouring in that direction?” 15:53-16:23 – Luke Waldo – We need to shine the light on examples of humans figuring it out. We need new stories. Success stories. Stories of connection, shared aspirations, communal resilience, and thriving communities. 16:23-16:53 – Jess Moyer – “We need to kind of take that lens to every decision that we make together. How will this impact children? And kind of think through that question. Because all the decisions we make about society have some impact on children in some way, and in the same way they impact all of us. They're social issues and that they touch all of our lives. So expanding that concept of care to something that's collective, inclusive, and expansive, I think is something that everybody can do.” 16:53-17:14 – Luke Waldo – When we expand the story of care, we change the logic of systems. We move from a story of fixing broken people to a story of building healing environments. 17:14-17:51 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris – But one of the things that a panelist mentioned is that the opposite of vision is fear, right? And so I can understand if there's fear there, right? But then I think

    22 min

  4. EPISODE 4

    “Untangling the Poverty and Neglect Narrative in Child Welfare Law” with Prudence Beidler Carr

    Overloaded: Understanding Neglect Season 4 Show Notes: Episode 4 Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Experts: Prudence Beidler Carr — American Bar Association's Center on Children and the Law Annessa Hartman — Oregon State Representative Tshaka Barrows — Haywood Burns Institute Dr. Nadine Burke Harris — ACE Resource Network and Former California Surgeon General Samantha Mellerson — Haywood Burns Institute Episode Segments 00:00–04:29 — Luke Waldo Introduction: What happens when cultural narratives about unfit parents are codified into federal law? Host Luke Waldo introduces Prudence Beidler Carr, Director of the ABA's Center on Children and the Law, to trace the historical arc of the modern child welfare system and her presentation: "How Poverty Became Neglect in Federal Law and Policy: A 1961 Magic Trick". 4:29–6:39 — Prudence Beidler Carr Overview of the ABA's Center on Children and the Law — a nonprofit within the ABA serving ~300,000 legal professionals with a staff of 20. 6:39–7:00 — Luke Waldo What inspired Prudence's research and this nationwide presentation? 7:00–10:34 — Prudence Beidler Carr In summer 2020, the Commission on Youth and Family Justice was examining racial disproportionality in child welfare. Judge Ernestine Gray pushed for substantive research rather than a surface-level statement. Two catalysts: Donna Wilson's finding that very few Black children were in foster care before the 1960s, and Joyce McMillan's quote: "If foster care was a good thing, Black children would only get in through affirmative action." 10:34–12:16 — Luke Waldo Sets up the historical walk-through of key policy milestones that built today's foster care system. 12:16–15:52 — Prudence Beidler Carr Three major pre-1961 shifts: (1) Very few Black children in formal foster care; (2) Rare judicial involvement in child removal; (3) No federal foster care funding until 1961 — that infusion of dollars fundamentally reshaped child welfare law. 15:52–21:32 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr History of Mother's Pensions and Aid to Dependent Children (ADC) in the early 20th century. "Suitable home" standards were loosely defined by states and caseworkers — fitness to receive assistance, not fitness to parent. 22:30–29:28 — Prudence Beidler Carr The second New Deal and the Social Security Act (Title IV) structured children's support through ADC. The NAACP, Urban League, and others challenged discriminatory administration. After Brown v. Board of Education (1954), 23 states tightened suitability rules within 4 years to restrict ADC access — effectively using it to push Black and Native American families out of communities to avoid school integration. Caseworkers began threatening removal, not just loss of benefits. 29:28–33:16 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr The federal government had given states full discretion over ADC, so had no authority to stop discriminatory administration. In the year Ruby Bridges integrated Louisiana schools, the state cut ~23,000 children (95% nonwhite) from public assistance. HHS Secretary Arthur Flemming issued the Flemming Rule to stop this — but included two exceptions: states could still restrict ADC if they tried to "help" the family, or if they removed the child. The second exception effectively incentivized removal. 33:16–41:22 — Prudence Beidler Carr & Luke Waldo In 1961, for the first time, Congress provided federal funding for foster care maintenance payments — in response to states requesting authority to remove children from homes deemed unsuitable for ADC. The "1961 magic trick": a few words in statute created an entirely new system that shifted from supporting families to separating them. Flemming likely did not intend to create a massive foster care system. 41:22–52:17 — Prudence Beidler Carr The Child Welfare League of America pushed for judicial oversight of removals, but judges largely rubber-stamped caseworker decisions. In 1962, Congress codified the standard: states receive federal foster care reimbursement when a judge finds it "contrary to the child's welfare" to remain home. No operational definition was provided. The standard was about poverty, not abuse. 52:33–57:15 — Prudence Beidler Carr The legal structure was never about protecting children from abuse — it was a generic poverty-based removal standard. Dr. Henry Kempe's 1962 "battered child syndrome" article came after the initial surge in foster care entries. By the mid-1960s, two-thirds of foster care placements stemmed from ADC referrals with limited abuse allegations. 57:15–1:05:35 — Prudence Beidler Carr Before 1960 very few Black children were in formal foster care. By 1977: 28% of all children in foster care were Black; by ~1999: 40%. Congress repeatedly expanded foster care funding (an uncapped entitlement) rather than increasing ADC, structurally incentivizing removal. Prudence reflects on presenting this history: audiences consistently report feeling relieved to understand the system's roots and recognize it wasn't designed to do what they thought they were entering the field to do. 1:05:35–1:10:21 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr 65 years in, we now have intention — we can no longer call harm an "unintended consequence." This is a call to action: "It's the present and it's ours for the remaking." 1:10:21–1:14:47 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr Reflection on the 1961-62 fork in the road: federal dollars could have been directed to abuse cases OR toward deeper family support. Instead the system lost focus on child protection from imminent harm. Today, 37% of all American children — and 53% of Black children — will experience a child welfare investigation before age 18. The cost extends to all families, echoing Heather McGhee's "drain the pool" metaphor. 1:33:58–1:35:47 — Luke Waldo & Prudence Beidler Carr Closing remarks. Check out Prudence at the upcoming Together for Children conference. 1:35:47–End — Luke Waldo Outro: The next episode explores how these narratives manifest as individual experiences and community harm, featuring Dr. Pegah Faed (Safe and Sound), Valerie Frost (national lived experience expert), Claudia Rowe (National Book Awards finalist, Wards of the State), and others. Connect With Us Visit our podcast page | Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative Follow ICFW on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

    1h 39m

  5. EPISODE 5

    How Dominant Narratives Manifest for Individuals, Families, and Communities

    How Dominant Narratives Manifest for Individuals, Families, and Communities Today’s episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Experts: Valerie Frost – National Lived Expert and Systems Change Leader Claudia Rowe – Author of Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care Prudence Beidler Carr – ABA Center on Children and the Law Dr. Pegah Faed – Safe and Sound Tori Brasher Weathers – Institute for Family Emerald Mills Williams – Diverse Dining & Diverse Dining Market Shary Tran – ElevAsian & Children’s Wisconsin 00:00–00:57 – Valerie Frost - "I don't really have anything… everything that I have can be taken from me." She reflects on how systems involvement taught her that narrative is the only thing that cannot be stripped away.  00:57–04:51 – Luke Waldo - Luke recaps the season's arc from exploring what narratives are, to how dominant narratives limit our ability to see families clearly. He introduces this episode's shift from the conceptual to the personal; exploring how these narratives actually manifest in the lives of individuals and communities.  04:51–05:16 – Media Clips - News clips establish the scope of the child welfare system underscoring how systemic the infrastructure of surveillance and intervention is. 05:16–05:53 – Luke Waldo - Luke introduces Valerie Frost. 05:53–07:37 – Valerie Frost - Valerie powerfully contrasts two narratives of her experience: the system's narrative and her own truth. She articulates how dominant narratives are shaped by exclusion and power, not context; and how that power flows directly into how programs, schools, and services are designed. 07:37–08:19 – Luke Waldo - Luke unpacks dominant narratives as not just a story, but a shortcut. He introduces Claudia Rowe. 08:19–08:48 – Claudia Rowe - Claudia shares that virtually all families in the child welfare system are low-income. Affluent families are largely invisible to CPS.  08:48–08:59 – Prudence Beidler Carr - Prudence quotes Joyce McMillan with a piercing truth. 08:59–09:36 – Luke Waldo - Luke connects this to Prudence's argument from the prior episode that the child welfare system was deliberately designed to target and separate certain families. He introduces Dr. Pegah Faed. 09:36–11:12 – Dr. Pegah Faed - Dr. Faed presents the current system where 87% of calls to CPS in California are not substantiated. The framework of mandated reporting was never designed to address unmet family needs; yet it has become an overused doorway.  Safe and Sound's annual Economics of Child Abuse report 11:12–12:35 – Luke Waldo - Luke notes that Wisconsin's numbers mirror California's. He challenges listeners with an analogy. Would you take a medication that failed you 87% of the time?  12:35–14:12 – Valerie Frost - Valerie describes a telling moment where a school-based family support worker concluded that families didn’t need clothing donations.  14:12–14:48 – Luke Waldo - Luke draws out the key implication where the narrative that overloaded parents are failing parents doesn't just shape how systems see families; it forces professionals who signed up to help into a posture of suspicion.  14:48–15:24 – Tori Brasher Weathers - Tori points to a striking gap in how professionals engage families. The question "What do you need to be well?" is rarely asked.  15:24–16:01 – Luke Waldo - Luke connects this to Tshaka Barrows' metaphor from Episode 3.  16:01–16:57 – Claudia Rowe - Claudia shares a disturbing data point: a child welfare researcher sent her a message suggesting some children are "doomed from birth".  16:57–18:14 – Luke Waldo - Luke names what Claudia's story represents: fatalism, one of the dominant mental models explored this season. He then sets up Valerie's analysis of invisible labor and the Time Tax, introduced by journalist Annie Lowrey. 18:14–18:34 – Media Clips: The Time Tax - Annie Lowrey's concept of the "time tax"; the administrative burden shifted from organizations onto ordinary people.  The Time Tax by Annie Lowrey 18:34–21:54 – Luke Waldo and Valerie Frost - In one of the episode's most detailed and resonant segments, Valerie walks through the exhausting logistics of survival under poverty.  21:54–22:24 – Luke Waldo - Luke draws out the exposure paradox.  22:24–23:55 – Valerie Frost - Valerie examines risk assessment checklists in child welfare. What if those same flags were reframed as opportunities to build community and expand support?  23:55–24:41 – Luke Waldo - This invisibility and exhaustion is not unique to Kentucky or Valerie's story. He transitions to Milwaukee and introduces Emerald Mills Williams, founder of Diverse Dining. 24:41–25:35 – Emerald Mills Williams - Emerald shares why she left a nearly 20-year career in public health. She traces a root cause: Milwaukee's designation as one of the most segregated cities in the United States. Her theory, that the inability of people to gather across differences and have real conversations was driving poor public health outcomes; led her to found Diverse Dining.  Milwaukee, Segregation, and the Echo of Welfare Reform – Brookings Institute 26:28–26:49 – Luke Waldo - Luke introduces Shary Tran, co-founder of ElevAsian. 26:49–28:26 – Shary Tran - Shary identifies three persistent harmful narratives that follow the AAPI community: The Model Minority Myth The Yellow Peril Trope The Perpetual Foreigner Trope 28:26–28:55 – Luke Waldo - When we can only see people through the lens of a harmful narrative, we lose the ability to support them or build the communities we say we want. 28:55–29:24 – Valerie Frost - Valerie closes with a reflection on her own impact.  29:24–32:14 – Luke Waldo - Luke summarizes the episode's three central truths: Invisibility breeds harm. The time tax of poverty. Who tells the story matters as much as the story itself. When systems hold narrative power, those stories are shaped by exclusion and judgment, not context and understanding. These narratives don't stay abstract. They become risk assessments, case files, professional assumptions, and community stereotypes. Luke previews the next episode: a deeper conversation with Claudia Rowe about how media shapes and is shaped by narratives around child welfare, and what happens when journalists become partners in this work. Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative. Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

    32 min

  6. EPISODE 6

    Shining Light on the Long Shadow with Claudia Rowe

    Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Guest: Claudia Rowe, journalist, member of the Seattle Times editorial board, National Book Awards finalist and author of Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care.  00:14–03:29 – Luke Waldo Luke sets the stakes for this episode: despite a dominant narrative that the child welfare system exists to protect children, over half of all children who pass through foster care end up in the criminal justice system. He frames the central challenge for journalism: how do we push beyond sensational headlines to connect systemic failures, their real-life impacts, and the solutions that might exist? He introduces Claudia Rowe, whose book explores these questions across 34 years of reporting on the intersections of youth, poverty, and government policy. 03:29–05:57 – Claudia Rowe Claudia traces the origin of her career to a first editor who sent her to cover public schools in the Bronx in the early 1990s, telling her: "You want to understand people, you've got to look at the beginning." That directive became a lifelong inquiry into motivation, driving her from education into juvenile justice and child welfare. At the center of her work is one foundational question: what is the logic behind behavior that seems self-destructive or baffling to the rest of society? 05:57–10:25 – Luke Waldo and Claudia Rowe Luke asks Claudia what dominant narratives she has encountered across her career. She identifies fatalism as among the most persistent: the belief that some children are "doomed from birth," damaged beyond reach, incapable of learning or growing. She notes a child welfare researcher communicated exactly this sentiment to her just two weeks before recording. Her reframe is critical: this isn't about the child. It's about a society that has structured sorting systems rather than uplifting ones. Schools, she was told by one educator, are sorting systems. 10:25–15:37 – Claudia Rowe Claudia identifies two warring narratives within child welfare: "the family is sacrosanct" (keep children with their family of origin at all costs) versus "the family is a disaster" (remove children at the first sign of problems). She points out the selective nature of both: virtually all families in the child welfare system are low-income. Affluent families with neglect and addiction are rarely touched by CPS. The system, she argues, demonizes certain families by economic class and race, not by actual harm. 15:37–21:24 – Claudia Rowe Claudia addresses the book's central data point: 59% of young people who grow up in foster care will have been locked up by age 26 (juvenile detention, county jail, or state prison), based on the landmark Midwest Evaluation of the Adult Functioning of Former Foster Youth conducted by Chapin Hall. The country spends $31 billion annually on foster care, yet this is the outcome. She walks through four pathways that drive that statistic: running away (leading to shoplifting, trafficking, arrest), violence in group homes, failed adoptions, and aging out at 18 without support. She adds that 50% of foster youth leave high school without a diploma, and many lack the internal resources to envision and plan for a future. 22:05–35:34 – Claudia Rowe Claudia recounts how she came to write the book: she was sitting in a Seattle courtroom during the sentencing of a teenage girl named Maryanne who had shot and killed a man while on the run from foster care. Over six weeks of continued hearings, Claudia realized this was not a crime story. It was a foster care story. The question that crystallized: is foster care creating future inmates? Maryanne's path was typical for older foster youth: multiple placements, a failed adoption, eventual group placement. Claudia notes most reporting on foster care focuses on infants and toddlers, almost never on adolescents.  38:29–49:38 – Claudia Rowe Claudia confronts the "monster" narrative directly, a label she finds opaque and unilluminating. She shares two stories from the book that challenge opposite dominant narratives: Monique (Houston): Her story challenges the narrative that removing children earlier guarantees better outcomes. Jay (New York City): His story shatters the narrative of the irredeemable child. Claudia's core message from both stories: connection can happen, even brief connection at the right moment can change everything. And it is never too late. 50:31–55:34 – Claudia Rowe Claudia addresses why foster care is largely invisible to the public. But the outcomes, homelessness, incarceration, are entirely visible. Her goal in writing the book was to connect those dots: to make the invisible system visible by writing with novelistic depth and suspense, so readers feel it rather than just absorbing statistics. 55:34–1:04:17 – Luke Waldo and Claudia Rowe Luke asks how practitioners and advocates can effectively engage journalism to shift the narrative. Claudia's response centers on trust and depth. Solutions journalism (or more precisely, reporting on "promising responses to social problems") offers a model: deep investigation of what is working, how it works, and all the hurdles along the way, not just the good numbers. Kinship care is one such promising response: placing children with relatives or fictive kin (family friends, coaches, teachers) rather than strangers, now supported by government stipends. Claudia notes it is shocking it took this long to be widely embraced. Quality Parenting Initiative is another: reimagining foster parents as long-term partners in a child's development, not temporary way stations. Unlike standard practice, QPI envisions ongoing connection between foster parents and children even after placement ends. 1:08:09–1:09:39 – Claudia Rowe Claudia offers a sweeping reframe of foster care itself: it is currently a holding system, designed to keep children nominally safe until they turn 18 and are released into adulthood without support. What it needs to become is a healing system. Every child in foster care has, by definition, experienced developmental trauma. A smaller, therapeutically reimagined foster care system, not just one that medicates behavior, is the direction Claudia sees as essential. 1:10:10–1:13:45 – Claudia Rowe Claudia reflects on the status of child welfare and education as beats within journalism. She sees a slow shift, particularly in education. Her argument for editors: readers invest time in stories with depth and detail. Those stories build audience loyalty. And for journalists who care only about dollars and cents: $31 billion spent on foster care is driving even more expensive systems, including incarceration and homelessness interventions. The story pencils out. 1:13:45–1:16:56 – Claudia Rowe Asked what she has learned about her role in narrative change, Claudia returns to a single principle she has held across every book and every story: look closer. Especially at the things that frighten or confuse us. The label of "monster" or "sociopath" tells her nothing; understanding motivation tells her everything. And the added benefit of looking closer, she says, is that you puncture your own fear. You become less afraid of what you better understand. 1:15:23–1:18:00 – Luke Waldo Luke synthesizes the episode's challenge: Claudia has delivered a call to action to every reader who encounters a headline about a person in crisis, to every journalist who covers these stories, and to every professional who designs the systems meant to serve families. Her work makes it undeniable that stories told with context and complexity are among the most powerful tools we have to counter the devastating simplicity of dominant narratives. Without those stories, the invisible remains invisible, and the outcomes we all live with every day continue without origin, without explanation, and without remedy. He previews Episode 7: "Do Stories Really Matter?" a conversation with Jess Moyer, Rinku Sen, Megan McGee, Tarik Moody, and others on the science, art, and measurable impacts of storytelling on narrative change. Join the conversation and connect with us! Visit our podcast page on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative. Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

    1h 20m

  7. SEASON 4 TRAILER

    Overloaded: Understanding Neglect - Season 4 Trailer

    0:08 - Luke Waldo: The first three seasons of Overloaded explored the forces that overload families from poverty to social isolation, systemic racism to mistrust of our systems. But this season, we're looking at something more invisible, the stories behind those forces. And how stories shape what we believe, how we act, and who we hold responsible. Join me, Luke Waldo, on Wednesday, February 4th for season 4 of Overloaded: Understanding Neglect, where we're taking apart the stories that define our families, our communities, and our future, and building better ones together. Through conversations with changemakers like Frameworks Institute’s Jess Moyer… 0:59 – Jess Moyer: What we're talking about is kind of an ambitious endeavor. And what we're seeking to change are things that are really entrenched.  1:08 – Luke Waldo: Doctors Nadine Burke Harris and Bruce Perry… 1:11 – Dr. Nadine Burke Harris: Do you want me to speak truthfully? 1:13 - Dr. Bruce Perry: People tend to view the world and problems from their frame of reference. 1:18 - Dr. Nadine Burke Harris: The more you just kind of scrape under the surface the easier it is to recognize that those structures are not accidental. 1:28 – Luke Waldo: National Book Award finalist Claudia Rowe… 1:31 - Claudia Rowe: Some of those storylines have not changed all that much, and I am surprised, frankly, that I still encounter them even up to, you know, like last week. 1:42 – Luke Waldo: American Bar Association Center on Children and the Law Director Prudence Beidler Carr… 1:47 - Prudence Beidler Carr:  We've essentially created a mechanism for determining that a child who was living in a home where the parents were found unfit, not because they've abused their child, not because there's an imminent risk of harm, not because that child has experienced a safety issue, but because the parents sought help, were rejected from that help, and now unfit to care for their child, so their child is removed from their care. 2:15 – Luke Waldo: National Lived Experience Leader Valerie Frost… 2:18 – Valerie Frost: You know it’s really humbling to have systems involvement in that way that’s shocking. Because I now know, for the rest of my life, I don’t really have anything. Right now, on this call, CPS could come knock on my door, they could go pick up my kids from school. They could do any day. 2:36 – Luke Waldo: And Anti-Hate Advocate Pardeep Singh Kaleka amongst many others, we explore the question: “What stories shape how we see the world? And how can we tell them differently? 2:49 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: Maybe we can go past what we say about each other… 2:55 – Luke Waldo: Join us on Wednesday, February 4th when we premiere season 4 wherever you listen to your podcasts.

    3 min
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About

Overloaded: Understanding Neglect explores the complex crisis of child neglect and family separation in America, where 37% of all US children experience a Child Protective Services investigation and nearly 70% of children in foster care are separated from their families due to neglect. Hosted by Luke Waldo, Director of Program Design and Community Engagement at the Institute for Child and Family Well-being, this podcast builds a shared understanding of neglect as a preventable public health crisis. Through conversations with national and local research and policy experts, inspiring changemakers, and lived experience leaders, we examine the forces that overload families - from poverty and social isolation to systemic racism and institutional failures - and explore innovative pathways toward solutions. Across four seasons, we've journeyed from understanding the problem to identifying Critical Pathways - Economic Stability, Social Connectedness, Community Collaboration, and Workforce Inclusion and Innovation - from transforming systems to examining the stories that shape our beliefs and actions. Each season builds on the last as part of the Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative, bringing together those who know these issues best to reimagine how we support families and prevent the separations that tear them apart. We believe neglect is preventable. Join us as we work together to change the conditions and improve the odds for children and families to thrive.

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