Richard Gray On today’s episode of Pacific Polarity, we’re talking with Dr. Zoe Liu, who’s the is the Maurice R. Greenberg Fellow for China Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Previously, she held post-doctoral fellowships at the Columbia-Harvard China and the World Program and the Fletcher School at Tufts University. Dr. Liu is the author of “Sovereign Funds: How the Communist Party of China Finances Its Global Ambitions” and “Can BRICS De-dollarize the Global Financial System?”. Dr. Liu, welcome to Pacific Polarity. Zongyuan Zoe Liu Thank you for having me. Richard Gray So to begin this conversation, I want to turn first to the Chinese bond and stock markets. In November, China’s issuance of $4 billion in sovereign bonds, denominated in US dollars, was oversubscribed by about 30x. And since September 2024, when China instituted a support package incurring buybacks and overall stock market liquidity, Chinese stocks have outperformed American stocks in that period. And so this carries over to the national champions revenue growth for the BATX, which is Baidu, Alibaba, Tencent, and Xiaomi has outperformed the Magnificent Seven in the United States during the same period. And so what do you glean from this demand for Chinese assets? And what does that tell us about where the two economies are heading? Zongyuan Zoe Liu First of all, thank you, Richard and Jersey for having me. Now, I would say China’s stock market was designed in a different way. Back in the early 90s, when the Chinese government started to launch China’s stock market, especially in Shanghai, the idea was not necessarily to support the growth of private companies. It was not about successful startups getting an IPO. Instead, the whole idea was to help state-owned enterprises to restructure themselves and to raise money. Now, fast forward to today, China’s stock market, especially Shanghai and Shenzhen, the composition has changed. You have more companies, not necessarily just state-owned enterprises. But if you look at companies, especially the large capex companies, or in the more successful companies, as well as take a look at what kind of companies are allowed to or being green-lighted to be listed. I’d say many of those are in strategic sectors prioritized by the Chinese government. So from that perspective, I’d say China’s stock market or Chinese equities are less uncertain in terms of returns, as long as investors are putting money along the side of the national team. One of the largest shareholders of BYD is Central Huijin, which is one of the national team. So from that perspective, I’d say, regardless of timing, demand for a Chinese asset, or for that matter, demand for emerging market assets fit into the theme of investors’ diversification strategy, portfolio diversification. And this works especially well in times of returns are low elsewhere. But if we specifically talking about today, like why now, right? I think this speaks to two different things: one is the bet on China’s innovation and high-tech sector, especially sectors that are prioritized by the Chinese government, and then on the other side, it also speaks to investors diversifying amid rising geopolitical tensions, as well as the fragmentation of technology standard between the United States and China. Yes, Chinese equity market so far outperformed, in some measures, outperformed the US, but this does not necessarily mean the equity market is more dynamic and more private market friendly. Richard Gray And so as a follow up, do you see it likely that the Chinese government will continue to encourage a bull market or do you think it will eventually be reined in? It seems that there are some general concerns about within the United States over financialization and potentially unsustainable price earning ratios of the American national champions, if you will. And then as a sideline of this, between Baijiu, BATX stocks, bonds and golds, what are your favorite Chinese assets of choice? Zongyuan Zoe Liu Yeah, this is a good—you know, as we are talking, as we are chatting now, I think gold price is at a record high now, right? And again, here is not necessarily an endorsement of any other currency or any other asset. It’s more about investors’ shaky confidence in the US dollar as well as dollar denominated asset. Part of the reason is because of concerns about U.S. physical conditions as well as central bank independency and policy uncertainty overall, right? But if you look at U.S. tech sector, I’d say, S&P 500 is doing pretty well, if you just compare S&P 500 with itself. And since we’re talking about concerns about over-financialization or the bubble, I’d say China is not the only concern. I think here in the U.S. as well. So if you let me zoom in on China, I’d say the Chinese government has a good track record to deploy national champions to stabilize equity prices. During covid and in the run up to the trade war, every now and then you see news headlines saying that China’s national teams is being deployed to prop up equity crisis. But I would say these recent years, COVID and now, these are not the first time that national teams have been doing it: 2015, 2016 stock market crash, that was also when the national teams were being developed. And on top of that, China has dedicated domestic-oriented sovereign funds with the goal to finance equity market. So from that perspective, I’d say it really depends upon how you define a bubble. And if we define bubble purely from the perspective of retail investors’ speculation or listed companies’ share buyback or cross-holding, or the unconventional financing model, such as OpenAI and its suppliers or its users, then I just say, this kind of a concern about a bubble less applicable to the Chinese market. Part of the reason, and perhaps very important reason, Richard, is what you were talking about, is the national champion. And more importantly, the Chinese government has been encouraging long-term patient capital to be deployed in China’s equity market. One such example is the encouragement of insurance companies and pension fund to invest in equity market. Jersey Lee So over the next few months, we’ll likely see a number of meetings between Xi and Trump as they attempt to hash out a broader trade settlement to the kind of now more low-level trade war going on. But that period will also see the start of implementation for the 15th five-year plan. So there’s a lot of talk about the ways that America’s domestic and international policies are increasingly interconnected and intertwined. What is the case for China, particularly in the economic realm? Zongyuan Zoe Liu Yes, Jersey, you’re right. At least President Trump is scheduled or is supposed to go to China for a state visit in April. But from now to April, there is quite a few months. So things can happen. But hopefully there is no drama, no unexpected accident so that the two leaders can meet. And I think that would inject momentum at least in the near term to investors as well as policy working level bureaucrats, to work on stabilizing the relationship. But on the other hand, if we recall 2017 during President Trump’s first term, he visited China and the trip was largely considered as successful. But when he came back to the United States shortly after that, what happened was not just trade war 1.0, but also a global campaign against the Chinese tech companies from ZTE to Huawei. So I would say regardless of how successful or how great the trip is, there are structural forces in the bilateral relationship. That means we cannot be overly optimistic about how the trip can improve the relationship. It’s just not realistic. Now, what this means for the Chinese economy, especially considering that this is also the time for the new five-year plan or the 15th five-year plan? I think so far the message has been very clear, right? The message is continued focus and commitment to self-sufficiency, to technology advancement. And on top of that, China has also been identifying the strategic sectors that it wants to develop, from quantum computing, AI and semiconductors, which basically means the China’s economic model remains largely unchanged, which is investment oriented, combined with a government set using industrial policies to achieve self-sufficiency and advancement in dedicated strategic sectors. This means that, despite there has been a growing attention to boost household consumption, it is very hard for government to actually implement policies to achieve the desired goal of boosting household consumption. And let me be more clear here. The goal is not to necessarily boost the consumption. The need to boost household consumption comes from two things. One is the recognition of rising trade attention, and then the second one comes from the realization of overcapacity and the international consequences of overcapacity. So that is to say, attention to boost household consumption is not the goal in itself. The goal is really to continue to achieve self-sufficiency. And why China is so committed to achieve self-sufficiency? A very important reason comes from the realization of the bottleneck, especially with regard to technology that the United States have had over China and the strategic insecurity that the party as well as Chinese companies have experienced since the first Trump administration. Richard Gray You were talking about industrial policy just a moment ago. I guess in your mind, what are the things that make the ways in which China mobilizes capital unique? We all know some of the general downsides of industrial policy. Sometimes there’s misallocation of capital. Certain sectors are supported at different variants of time. So one sector might get support for one year, another for 10 years. So that means investors have a level of policy uncertainty about the stability of those investments for a l
