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John Willis
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Ramblings about W. Edwards Deming in the digital transformation era. The general idea of the podcast is derived from Dr. Demming's seminal work described in his New Economics book - System of Profound Knowledge ( SoPK ). We'll try and get a mix of interviews from IT, Healthcare, and Manufacturing with the goal of aligning these ideas with Digital Transformation possibilities. Everything related to Dr. Deming's ideas is on the table (e.g., Goldratt, C.I. Lewis, Ohno, Shingo, Lean, Agile, and DevOps). 

  1. 1D AGO

    S6 E4 - Glenn Wilson – Rethinking Cybersecurity Through Systems Thinking

    In this episode, Glenn Wilson, a cybersecurity expert, joins me to explore how systems thinking can reshape how we approach cybersecurity, vulnerability management, and modern digital systems. Glenn shares his journey from writing about DevSecOps to pursuing a master’s degree in Systems Thinking in Practice at the Open University. His motivation came from recognizing a troubling contradiction that, despite massive investments in cybersecurity, data breaches, ransomware incidents, and security failures continue to rise. This led him to question whether the industry’s largely reductionist approach misses the broader system dynamics at play. A central part of the discussion focuses on Stafford Beer’s Viable System Model (VSM), a cybernetic framework for understanding how organizations maintain balance and adapt to their environments. Glenn explains how VSM’s five subsystems can be used to diagnose why cybersecurity systems often fail. Rather than viewing security as a set of tools or controls, Glenn argues it should be understood as a living system embedded within larger organizational and risk systems. The conversation then expands into cybernetics, emergence, and AI, touching on Norbert Wiener, Ross Ashby’s law of requisite variety, and John Boyd’s OODA framework. Together, we discuss how feedback loops, adaptation, and emergent behavior shape both human organizations and AI-driven systems. Glenn raises an important concern: if organizations don’t adopt systems thinking, increasing automation and AI could amplify weaknesses rather than solve them. We close by reflecting on the relationship between humans, AI, and complex systems. Glenn emphasizes that AI should be treated as a tool within a larger system, not anthropomorphized as human intelligence. The key challenge ahead is understanding how humans and intelligent tools coexist within systems that are adaptive, emergent, and increasingly complex. The big takeaway: cybersecurity cannot be improved by optimizing isolated parts. Real progress requires understanding the entire system and our place within it.

    1h 21m

  2. FEB 11

    S6 E3 - Carol Houle – Inspired Leadership Brings Digital Transformation

    In this episode, I have an insightful and wide-ranging conversation with Carol Houle, CEO of Inspire Digital Consulting. We explore her career journey across software development, lean supply chain transformation, cloud, and DevOps, and how these experiences led her to a central conviction: leadership is the primary bottleneck in digital transformation. Carol traces her roots back to early exposure to TQM and W. Edwards Deming during her undergraduate studies and her work at Pricewaterhouse Consulting in the 1990s, where lean principles were applied to supply chains. As Carol moved into larger leadership roles, a consistent pattern emerged: transformation efforts stalled not because of teams or tools, but because leaders themselves were the constraint. Yet leadership is rarely examined. Carol introduces her book and the Inspired Leadership Framework, which grew organically over a decade of observation, writing, and experimentation. Drawing from her experience spanning business, she distills leadership into measurable dimensions. Looking forward, Carol connects leadership quality to the coming era of agentic AI. AI will amplify whatever already exists. Weak leadership, unclear purpose, or misaligned incentives will scale into systemic risk. She introduces the idea of “benevolent AI agents” that help detect bias, misalignment, and deviations from stated intent. Show Notes: You can learn more about Inspired Digital Consulting and take the Inspired Leadership Assessment here - https://inspiredigitalconsulting.com/ Carol Houle's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolhoule/

    46 min

  3. JAN 21

    S6 E2 - From Thinking to Action Part 2 - Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom

    In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I continue the conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom, moving deeper into the origins and intent behind the In2:In Thinking Network and what it truly means to “think about our thinking.” Bill shares the lesser-known backstory of how In2:In Thinking came to be, from its early roots as the West Coast Quality Forum to the deliberate choice to move beyond Deming’s name alone. He explains why creating new language matters when changing systems, and how words like “quality,” “thinking,” and even “together” can trap us in old meanings unless we consciously redefine them. The discussion turns to incentives, commissions, and performance management, one of the most difficult and controversial areas of applying Deming’s philosophy. Through real-world examples from sales organizations, manufacturing, and leadership roles, we explore how individual incentives often drive behavior that harms the system as a whole, even when intentions are good. Bill and I unpack why these problems aren’t about “bad people,” but about systems that reward the wrong outcomes. Lori introduces curiosity as a unifying theme, curiosity not just about external problems, but about our own assumptions, beliefs, and patterns of thinking. We connect curiosity to empathy, beginner’s mind, and the ability to see work as “part of” a larger system rather than isolated tasks. From parenting to leadership to organizational design, the conversation highlights how asking better questions can unlock better action. The episode closes by reinforcing a critical point: In2:In Thinking is not about endless reflection. Thinking about thinking must ultimately lead to better decisions, better cooperation, and better results. This balance between mindfulness and action, reflection, and delivery is at the heart of Deming’s work and the mission of the In2:In Thinking Network.

    43 min

  4. JAN 7

    S6 E1 - From Thinking to Action Part 1 - Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom

    To kick start season 6 of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom. Together, we explore how W. Edwards Deming’s philosophy continues to challenge prevailing styles of management, and why curiosity, systems thinking, and better questions matter more than ever in today’s digital and organizational landscape. Lori shares her personal journey from Georgia Tech to the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham, describing the “light-bulb moment” that came from discovering Deming’s work. She reflects on learning in an environment without grades, without competition, and with a deep emphasis on cooperation, intrinsic motivation, and real-world application. Her story illustrates how Deming’s ideas resonate with people who sense that “something is off” in traditional management but lack the language to name it. Dr. Bellows expands the discussion by reflecting on Deming’s later years, his frustration at being misunderstood, and his push to move beyond prescriptions like the 14 Points toward deeper thinking about our thinking. He recounts the origins of the In2:In Thinking Network, the importance of making Deming’s ideas accessible, and why changing words and the meaning behind them matters when changing systems. Across the episode, we connect Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge to modern challenges in education, large enterprises, and digital transformation. From AI and critical thinking to burnout inside massive organizations, this conversation highlights why real change doesn’t come from tools or methods alone, but from learning to see systems differently, ask better questions, and create environments where people can truly learn. Show Notes: http://www.in2in.org/ https://www.in2in.org/contact

    35 min

  5. 08/11/2025

    S5 E11 - Diane Kulisek – Engineering Across Industries

    I have a conversation with Diane Kulisek in this episode. Diane, a veteran in quality systems and regulatory affairs, shares her journey from Gillette to Rocketdyne to Johnson & Johnson, weaving in the principles of Deming and the realities of complex, high-stakes industries. We dive into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality and how they’ve shaped Diane’s extraordinary career across aerospace, consumer products, and medical device manufacturing.  We start with Diane’s early work at Gillette, where she first encountered military-grade quality standards, and move into her groundbreaking experience at Rocketdyne. There, she managed space shuttle main engine avionics and led self-managed teams. Diane highlights the power of elected management and the deep cultural dysfunctions she observed, drawing sharp analogies to adult children of alcoholics and the normalization of deviance in corporate environments. Our conversation then pivots to regulatory complexity. Diane explains how compliance efforts in medical device manufacturing must transcend minimum standards to uphold the priceless value of human life. She critiques the profit-centric motives of insurance companies and exposes the structural misalignments that can compromise quality in favor of greed and speed. We also explore the limitations and potential of AI in auditing, with Diane emphasizing the importance of human experience in identifying risk and systemic failures. She proposes the provocative idea of creating an “AI Deming,” using Deming’s extensive body of work to model principled decision-making. Diane’s reflections bring a critical eye to regulatory frameworks, the ethics of risk management, and the potential of technology to augment human insight. Through it all, she remains grounded in Deming’s enduring vision that quality is a moral imperative and a societal good. This is Diane's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dkulisek Show Notes: 1: https://www.scribd.com/document/451480272/MIL-Q-9858A-Quality-Program-Requirements-pdf 2: https://adultchildren.org 3: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/16.305 4: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB991862606575154843 5: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/708066main_Shuttle_Bibliography_2-ebook.pdf?emrc=c67e14 6: https://www.irvinestandard.com/2023/johnson-johnsons-innovation-irvine-roots-and-credo-to-give-back/ 7: https://asq.org/-/media/ASQ-Supplemental-Media-Import/1/3/9/2/6/ar_1106_105018.pdf 8: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/oalj/PUBLIC/WHISTLEBLOWER/REFERENCES/STATUTES/SARBANES_OXLEY_ACT_OF_2002.PDF 9: https://store.pda.org/TableOfContents/Risk_Assessment_Ch01.pdf 10: https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/class-action-lawsuit-against-unitedhealths-ai-claim-denials-advances 11:

    1 hr

  6. 07/23/2025

    S5 E10 - Doug Finke – From Mainframes to Machine Learning

    In this episode, I have a conversation with Doug Finke. A 16-time Microsoft MVP and long-time technologist, Doug’s experience ranges from mainframe assembly programming to pioneering AI integrations in software development. We reminisce about the early days of system programming and explore how those foundational skills have enabled technologists like Doug to excel in the rapidly evolving world of AI. Doug shares his journey from COBOL and assembler to becoming a PowerShell innovator, highlighting how his early exposure to structured programming and domain-specific languages now serves as a superpower in working with large language models (LLMs). Our discussion pivots to the game-changing potential of AI, specifically the rise of function calling, modular design, and the Model-Context-Protocol (MCP). Doug explains how these patterns transform AI from simple copilots into powerful collaborators capable of orchestrating entire software systems. We also look at the implications of AI-driven software development for enterprises, examining whether vertical SaaS solutions may soon be disrupted by in-house, AI-built alternatives. Doug emphasizes how AI accelerates both code creation and maintenance, challenging long-held assumptions about whether to buy or build software. Our conversation concludes with a philosophical lens on teaching AI, the evolving role of junior developers, and the importance of naming, structure, and design patterns in crafting software that AI can effectively understand and extend. Whether you're deep into AI tooling or just starting to explore, Doug's perspective offers a clear bridge between classical computing and today's transformative technologies.

    55 min

  7. 07/07/2025

    S5 E9 Lonnie Wilson – Carrying On the Deming Torch

    I have a fantastic conversation with Lonnie Wilson in this episode, diving deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, systems thinking, and the enduring challenges of operationalizing his philosophy in the real world. Lonnie also shares how his initial admiration for Chevron's management practices began to unravel after encountering Deming's writings in the mid-1980s. The episode opens with Lonnie recounting his experience attending one of Deming's four-day seminars. His anecdote about Deming’s instantaneous answer to a deceptively simple question. Lonnie reflects on Deming's often enigmatic style, particularly his refusal to provide concrete answers to complex management questions, such as what to replace performance appraisals with. We explore the tension between Deming’s abstract guidance and the practical application of his ideas in corporate environments. Lonnie shares his journey of attempting to implement cultural change through Deming’s 14 Points, only to face organizational resistance and surface-level interest. This led him to develop pragmatic systems that bridged the gap between Deming's theory and the day-to-day realities of business operations. Lonnie and I delve into critical questions: Was Deming’s refusal to provide prescriptive answers a form of intellectual elitism or a deliberate nudge toward self-discovery? How did his lack of direct management experience influence his worldview? Lonnie argues that while Deming's concepts were revolutionary, they were often delivered without a “method for method,” leaving followers to forge their paths. The conversation concludes on a reflective note, with both of us acknowledging that, despite the depth and accuracy of Deming’s ideas, much of the corporate world has either misunderstood or ignored them. If Deming were alive today, Lonnie believes he would be dismayed by the lack of progress in management thinking and would challenge his disciples to evolve and iterate on his foundational work.

    41 min

  8. 06/11/2025

    S5 E8 - Rebels of Reason Chapter 28 The Saga of Siri (Summary)

    I'm still trying to figure out how to produce the audiobook for Rebels of Reason. This is my first experiment with 11Labs. It's not great. I will have to work on the voice equipment; however, it's a start. I hope you enjoy it.

    4 min
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About

Ramblings about W. Edwards Deming in the digital transformation era. The general idea of the podcast is derived from Dr. Demming's seminal work described in his New Economics book - System of Profound Knowledge ( SoPK ). We'll try and get a mix of interviews from IT, Healthcare, and Manufacturing with the goal of aligning these ideas with Digital Transformation possibilities. Everything related to Dr. Deming's ideas is on the table (e.g., Goldratt, C.I. Lewis, Ohno, Shingo, Lean, Agile, and DevOps). 

Information

  • Creator
    John Willis
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    92
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Profound
  • Show Website
    Profound