Refugia Podcast: A Podcast About Renewal

Debra Rienstra
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Host Debra Rienstra interviews a different guest each week, exploring the idea of refugia from a variety of perspectives, from biology to worship to politics. Refugia are places of shelter where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring what it means for people of faith to be people of refugia. refugianewsletter.substack.com

  1. 11/09/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 40

    Our final episode of Season 4! This week, we travel to Hawaii with a whole troop of good people to visit some remarkable refugia spaces near Kaneohe Bay on Oahu. This episode, produced by Colin Hoogerwerf and Jim Stump, first aired on the Language of God podcast in April of 2025. To learn more about the Language of God podcast, visit their website here. Language of God is produced by Biologos, an organization that promotes greater understanding and appreciation of science for people of faith. In this episode, we visit First Presbyterian Church of Honolulu, the Hoʻokuaʻāina kalo farm, and the Waikalua Loco fish pond. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

    52 min

  2. 11/02/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 39

    Christina Bagaglio Slentz is Associate Director for Creation Care for the Catholic Diocese of San Diego. Learn about how her diocese prioritizes climate action here. In this episode, we often refer to Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’ and the ways that faith communities are living out its stated goals. We also discuss the theme “seeds of peace and hope,” the official theme for the 2025 ecumenical Season of Creation. Many thanks to Christina for sharing her wisdom in this conversation! Christina Slentz TRANSCRIPT Christina Slentz I think this really can help us understand the way that the cry of the Earth, these environmental climate extremes, or the variability that we’re experiencing, leads to greater exposure—but how one community can face that exposure and adapt or bounce back fairly quickly and another may not really have that capacity. Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I’m your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we’re paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I’m talking with Dr. Christina Bagaglio Slentz, Associate Director for Creation Care at the Catholic Diocese of San Diego. Christina has a background in sociology, with a PhD in international studies and global affairs. She’s also a Navy veteran. Today, she serves a diocese of 97 parishes, helping to guide and empower people in their creation care work. The Diocese of San Diego is a microcosm of diverse biomes and diverse people, and it’s a fascinating example of refugia, because as a diocese, they are doing all the things. Christina and I talk about Laudato si’, solar energy, economics, eco spirituality, environmental justice advocacy, the centrality of the Eucharist, and the mutuality between caring for neighbor and caring for the Earth. Let’s get to it. Debra Rienstra Christina, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate talking to you. Christina Slentz Thank you, Debra, for having me. I’m really excited to be here. Debra Rienstra So I am eager to hear more about the Diocese of San Diego, because it seems that you have been very intentional and thoughtful and ambitious about your creation care agenda, and we’re going to get into the details of that in just a minute, but I want to start with you. So tell us your hero origin story. How did you get into faith-based environmental work and into your current position? Christina Slentz Well, to be honest, I never saw it coming in many ways. I was working in the global affairs area, looking at sources of conflict and cooperation and how political economy intersects with those dynamics, and that was my academic area of focus. And at the same time, I’ve always been a catechist in the Catholic church since the 90s, and my church life was pretty comfortable, I would say, and active. But I didn’t really see those two things coming together until Laudato si’, the encyclical written by Pope Francis on the care of our common home, was released in 2015, and this really started to bring more overlap between these two areas in my life. And I would say, increasingly, then there was a lot of interplay between those focus areas for me. And eventually this position became available in the Diocese of San Diego, and a friend mentioned it to me, and I thought that is actually the perfect vocation for me. And I really feel like I understood it to be a vocation, not just a job. Debra Rienstra Yeah, I think I can relate to everything you just said. I think we came to this work from different areas of specialty, but yeah, like you, I feel like we’ve had these mid-career shifts where suddenly our area of specialty—in my case, literature and creative writing—has become energized by—in your case, Laudato si’, in my case, other documents as well as Laudato si’,—and we’ve sort of taken this fascinating and yeah, I would agree, vocational, turn. So let’s talk a little bit more about Laudato si’. I imagine our listeners know at least a little bit about it. It’s been so enormously influential. It’s such an amazing landmark document. Could you talk a little bit about how you’ve seen Laudato si’ diffuse through the Catholic Church, especially the American Catholic Church? Christina Slentz Yes, I think, to be honest, it has had a complicated journey with the Catholic community here in the United States. Very much like the issue of climate change in the global community, the United States has struggled with these dynamics—I think the way that they involve our economics and some of our very strong ideology about economic freedom and what that means to people. And so I think it’s fair to say that while Laudato si’ was very warmly received around the world, it has struggled in the United States as a whole, and that includes the American Catholic community. That said, there have been—like your description of refugia suggests——there have been these pockets, though, where I think that particular dynamics existed, and there was fertile ground for seeds to be planted. And the Diocese of San Diego is one of them. The Diocese of—the Archdiocese of Atlanta was another. There are a couple around the country, and I do think some footholds were created. In addition, one of the things that is particularly interesting about the encyclical Laudato si’—and an encyclical is just a document that a pope writes and then circulates, right, this is where the word encyclical comes from—circulates around until everyone’s had a chance to read it. We can imagine in medieval times, you know, how this must have been a challenge. And I think that, you know, this challenge exists, but Father Emmett Farrell is the founder of this ministry in my diocese, and Father Emmett just celebrated his 60th anniversary of his ordination, and Father Emmett will say he has never seen an encyclical translate to action the way that Laudato si’ has. And in particular, there is a Vatican online platform called the Laudato si’ Action Platform, where Catholics—either parishes, schools, orders of sisters or religious—can get on this platform and learn about the dynamics that we face. They can see how our values are distilled into seven goals, and then they can reflect on their behavior, using this tool to sort of measure where they are, and then write a plan of action and upload it and share it with each other. And Father Emmett really celebrates how amazing it is that, you know, that we’re going to lean into technology and use it for the good. Debra Rienstra Oh, awesome. There’s so many things I want to follow up on in that answer. And I want to begin by just thanking you for being honest about pushback to Laudato si’ in the US. And I want to go back to that in just a second, if it’s okay. And then I want to thank you for the way you’ve thought about, you know, some of these dioceses like the mighty San Diego and the mighty Atlanta as sort of refugia spaces. And we’ll come back to that again too, I really hope, and I want to hear some more details about your particular diocese. Why do you think there has been pushback in the American Catholic Church? You mentioned economic reasons, and you know, Pope Francis and Pope Leo now have both been very pointed in their critique of climate denial, of greed, of exploitation, injustice, war, economic systems that many Americans have sort of held as almost sacrosanct. So what are you noticing in Catholic conversations about that critique? Why are people resisting the critique and why are people saying, “No, that’s right”—what are the motivations behind each of those responses? Christina Slentz So, you know, we could probably talk about this all day. Debra Rienstra Probably, yeah. Christina Slentz Because economic peace, I think, is really difficult to think about. You know, if we take the United Kingdom, for example, it’s a country very much like the United States. So many of our you know, American culture and tradition and customs come out of that early launching that we experienced from, you know, Great Britain. And yet, as the topic of climate change came forward, Margaret Thatcher, who was, you know, a real compatriot of President Ronald Reagan at the time, she really took the scientific approach in thinking about climate change, and this set them on a path that’s really different from the path that we experienced. And certainly, oil is a big factor in our economy. And I think it can be a real challenge for people to weigh the goods, you know, because we have to be honest, there are goods in both sides of these dynamics. When we understand the gravity, though, of climate change, if we’re allowed to really get into those dynamics without the noise that has been kind of confronting that potential, then I think we can see that the good outweighs, you know, those alternative goods associated with continuing in the fossil fuel realm. But this is why we talk about a just transition, right? I think that many people who are hearing this noise, right, they don’t understand that Pope Francis and others, you know, is really arguing for a just transition, and that would seek to care for the people that are going to be affected by whatever change in economic policy might make. Debra Rienstra Yeah, and more and more, those economic changes are actually positive in favor of transition in ways that they weren’t even 5-10 years ago. Christina Slentz Yeah, I think it’s amazing. We actually had some good momentum going until re

    54 min

  3. 10/26/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 38

    As a lay leader of Traverse City Presbyterian Church, Linda Racine and a team of enthusiastic congregants prompted her church to start on a journey toward effective climate action. You can read about their commitment to creation care and learn about their 3 bright ideas for reducing carbon emissions in this congregation-led video. Traverse City Presbyterian took advantage of tools like the Interfaith Power and Light Carbon Assessment to understand their own energy use. Learn more about how Linda’s denomination, the PCUSA, has committed to climate solutions in their Earth Pledge. Linda is also part of the Michigan Citizens Climate Lobby, which has local chapters all over the country. Many thanks to Linda and all the other terrific people who graciously hosted us when we visited Traverse City! Linda Racine TRANSCRIPT Linda Racine In 2022, there were multiple policies or overtures passed focused on creation care, and it really put out an alarm, saying “It’s serious, folks, the Earth is really in trouble. So we need to take strong action.” And they were encouraging all churches to reduce their carbon emissions by at least 25% in the next four years and get it down to net zero or net positive by 2030. Debra Rienstra Wow. That’s ambitious. Linda RacineVery ambitious. But a group of interested folks at church looked at that and said, “Let’s do it. Let’s go for it.” Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I’m your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we’re paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I’m talking with Linda Racine from the Presbyterian Church in Traverse City, Michigan. Linda happens to be Michigan co-coordinator for Citizen Climate Lobby, a role she adopted after a long career in academia. But I’m talking with Linda today in her role as a lay leader at the church. Traverse City Presbyterian, in many ways, is an ordinary congregation, but they are doing extraordinary work, integrating climate action into every aspect of church life. They have heat pumps, solar panels, native plantings, a pocket forest, educational programs and more. Their story demonstrates the importance of active pastoral and lay leadership, broad community buy-in, and denominational commitments. Linda will tell us their story. Let’s get started. Debra RienstraLinda, thank you for talking with me today. Linda Racine Oh, glad to be here. Debra Rienstra It’s great to be here in your beautiful home, here in Traverse City. Thank you for your hospitality today, and I’m really excited to talk about the work of Traverse City Presbyterian Church. So I know you’ve been involved in the church for a long time. Maybe tell us a little bit about your personal background and how long you’ve been involved in the church. Linda Racine Oh, I think I joined about 25 years ago. We used we had been members at the Immaculate Conception Catholic Church just down the street here, and it was actually our oldest son who was in high school at the time, going through confirmation class, and a lot of his friends were going to the Presbyterian Church, and he really wanted to go, and for a variety of reasons, we said, “Let’s check it out.” And we’ve been members since. That was 25 years ago. Debra Rienstra Yeah, so you have been around for all of the adventures that your church has had in their creation care work. Yes, so let’s start with that spark point. We’re really interested in finding how these things begin with a church. So can you think back to the moment when something happened at the church that people began to work in earnest to respond to climate change as a community. What was that spark point for Traverse City Presbyterian? Linda Racine The thing that really kicked it off was Laura Jacobson, who manages/schedules things for our Wednesday night adult education, came to me because she knew I was really involved in Citizens Climate Lobby, which is a non-partisan volunteer organization. And, “Would you do a session on climate?” I wanted to, but I was also a little hesitant, just because, sadly, climate has become so politicized, and our church has had a long history—we’re a purple church, check your politics at the door, and I was concerned about how people might receive it. So, I put together a presentation very thoughtfully about “How do I make this as non-political as possible?” But the heading for it was “Caring for God’s Creation: a faith based approach to climate change.” I wasn’t sure how it would go over. And at that time, we were getting maybe 20 people coming on Wednesday nights. 65 people came. The room was packed. So clearly there was a lot of interest. Debra Rienstra What year was this? Linda Racine It was like January of 2020, right before Covid hit. Debra Rienstra Goodness. Linda Racine So anyway, the evening went really well. Kind of started with a very broad based, here’s what Scripture says. Here’s what—oh, we did the Katharine Hayhoe video, which—she takes such a broad view of every faith tradition has something important to say about our responsibility to care for creation and for one another. So Katharine Hayhoe, then the Pope, and you know, went through some different traditions and how they’re responding. And then did some information about what PCUSA was doing, which was new to me. I didn’t really know what all our denomination—because it had never been talked about in our church. So went through that and offered the idea that our denomination has a certification process for creation care teams. And by the end, people were saying, “Let’s do this!” There was an impromptu—somebody grabbed a piece of paper and pen, and “Who wants to be a part of the team?” And we got, I don’t know, eight or 10 names on that list. Quickly got together and said, “Well, what do we want to do? Let’s pitch it to our session.” So February’s meeting, we had a proposal, and they all said, “Absolutely, let’s go for it.” So that’s what started it. Debra Rienstra What do you think prepared people to be that enthusiastic after one session? What was going on in the church? What are the congregation members like that makes you look back on that and say, “Yeah, we were somehow primed or prompted or ready for that moment.” Linda Racine I think that’s hard to say. Our church has always—I guess what drew me to the church initially is it was really clear this was a community that really walked the talk. It wasn’t coming on Sunday to check a box, but really genuinely living their faith. And people of faith were called to care for creation. And so I think that was a strong ethic that people had anyway. And clearly, by 2020, we’re seeing, “Oh my gosh, this earth is in trouble.” That was pretty clear. And so, just to have a topic on—let’s gather on Wednesday night and talk about it. I think people were ready. Debra Rienstra Fascinating, yeah. And I wonder if, because up north here in Michigan, this beautiful area of Michigan, people are very aware of the outdoors. So many people care a lot about the natural world around here and enjoy it. Summer up here is so beautiful. So I wonder if it was just a little bit of a more natural leap there. Linda Racine I think you’ve got a point there. People are drawn to this area because of its natural amazingness. And so there is a strong environmental ethic here. I mean, look at the land conservancy: all the explosion since that launched back in the 90s, I believe. The number of just natural areas that have been preserved, the whole Sleeping Bear sand dunes could have been development, but that has been preserved. There is a strong environmental ethic here. No question. Debra Rienstra Yeah, yeah. So what happened next? How did you go about inviting the whole congregation into a process that—you didn’t know what was going to happen next. You have this spark moment. But then what happened? Linda Racine I think the structure of the certification process really drove that. It’s so solid. When a church decides to do that, you’re committing to really look at how you manage your facilities, how your worship embraces this, how your education programs, and advocacy—that’s always been the toughest one. But those four areas. First you assess, where are we now? And then, what are your church’s goals? And so that involved, in order to do that and to get all the committees in the church involved: what are you doing currently, and what would you like to do? What would you like to see happen in the next year? So every committee was involved in setting goals. The pastor support was critical. Oh my gosh, without that, this wouldn’t have gone anywhere. Pastors have been, right from the beginning, very supportive. One Sunday, the whole church read the pledge. Debra Rienstra The Earth Care Pledge from the Presbyterian Church, okay. Linda Racine Yeah, yeah. So people were aware that that was going on. And then people have different interests. “I’m really excited about this piece of it or that piece of it.” So always open to anyone who wants to jump in and get involved to do that. But I think it’s the discipline, the structure and the discipline, of that certification process that keeps us on track. Debra Rienstra Okay, yeah, and it sounds like you were able to get that certification pretty quickly, because you’ve had it since 2020, so pretty quickly you got the certification. Linda Racine Yeah, I think that first year,

    37 min

  4. 10/19/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 37

    Elaine Heath is the abbess of Spring Forest, a new monastic community in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Spring Forest centers around communal prayer and meals, a vibrant farm, refugee support, and other ministries you can read about here. You can learn more about Elaine’s work as an author and speaker on her website, or in articles like this one from the Center for Action and Contemplation. Many thanks to Elaine and her husband Randall for welcoming Ron and I and our audio producer, Colin, to the farm last June. Besides relishing the good company of our hosts, we enjoyed harvesting cabbage, feasting and praying with the Sunday evening group, walking through the woods, and petting some good-natured goats. Dr. Elaine Heath On the farm. Someone had to help harvest the cabbage, so Ron and Colin and I pitched in. Elaine, husband Randall, and I in their lovely home. TRANSCRIPT Elaine Heath If you are nurtured by traditional church—or let’s say, conventional church—keep doing it, but also realize that for other people that’s not nurturing. It feels dry and lifeless, and it’s clear the Spirit is doing something new. So instead of insisting everybody stop doing the new thing, and everybody has to come and do the conventional thing, you can be conventional in your worship and bless and make space for others so that we have a plethora of experiments going on. Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I’m your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we’re paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Elaine Heath. Elaine is founder and abbess of Spring Forest, a new monastic community centered on a 23-acre forest and farm property near Hillsboro, North Carolina. The farm supplies a CSA and supports food security for refugees and serves as the setting for outdoor programs for kids, cooking classes, potlucks, forest walks and more. But the Spring Forest community is a dispersed network of people who move in and out of the farm space in a variety of ways. They live on the farm for a time, they visit often to volunteer, or they simply join the community online for daily prayer. We got to visit the farm last spring, and I can tell you that Elaine’s long experience with new monasticism, trauma-informed care, and contemplative practice make her an ideal curator of refugia space. The vibe on the farm is peaceful, orderly, and full of life. It’s a place of holy experimentation in new ways to form Christian community and reconnect with the land. Let’s get to it. Debra Rienstra Elaine, thank you for talking with me today. It’s really great to be with you. Elaine Heath Yeah, I’m glad to be with you too. Debra Rienstra So you served in traditional parish ministry and in religious academia for many years, and then in 2018 you retired from that work to found Spring Forest. Why a farm and a new monastic community? What inspired and influenced this particular expression of faith? Elaine Heath I’ve always loved farms and forests. But actually, my dream to do this started about 25 years ago, and my husband and I bought a 23 acre property in North Central Ohio, right when I was right out of my PhD program and I got my first academic job at my alma mater, which is Ashland Theological Seminary. So I went there to direct the Doctor of Ministry program, and we bought this beautiful property. It had a little house that looked like the ranger station, and it had a stream and a big labyrinth cut in the field, and it had beautiful soil to grow, you know, for market gardening. And what we planned to do was gradually develop retreat ministries there. My husband was going to build some hermitages up in the woods, because I did a lot of spiritual direction with pastors who were burned out and traumatized, and we felt like that, you know, as I got older and phased out of academia, that would be something we could do together. So we were there for a couple years, and then I was recruited to go to Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodist University. And we were very sad to leave our property behind, but we were clear that we were being called to Texas. So we bought a home in the city in a sort of mixed income, racially diverse neighborhood in Garland, and it was a big house with a nice yard, and soon after starting to teach evangelism—which, I kind of created my own path for how to teach evangelism, because I don’t believe in selling Jesus or any of those kinds of colonizing things. So I was teaching about living a contemplative life and practicing social and environmental justice and being good news in the world, and being good neighbors to all our neighbors, and thinking of our neighbors as us and not them. And I had them reading Shane Claiborne and the people writing with the emerging church movement at the time, and pretty soon, I had students in my class coming to my office every week. It was a different student, but the same tears and the same kind of narrative: “Dr. Heath, I think I’m going to have to leave the church to answer my call. Tell me what I should do.” And it was because they were being called to do innovative, new monastic ministry, missional, new monastic kinds of things. But our denomination in particular didn’t quite get it, even though early Methodism was very much like that. So I realized fairly quickly that this was God calling me through these students to focus my research and writing and my teaching in the area of emergence. Emergence theory, what’s happening in the world. How do these currents of emergence intersect with what’s happening politically and environmentally, and what’s happening, you know, in the economy and with the church. So pretty soon, I don’t know, it wasn’t very long, I felt God was calling me to gather students and start some experiments outside, out in the city. And so I had a prayer partner, and we were praying for a house to come available, so that we could start a new monastic house. And she came to me one day and she said, “I saw the house coming. It’ll be here soon.” And I said, “Okay.” I had no money for a house. You know, kind of a lowly professor, didn’t make that much. And within two weeks, one of our neighbors came to me, who didn’t really know me well at all, and said, “Hey, my mom has a rental property. It’s been in our family for a long time, and we wondered if you might have some students that would like to live there. We won’t even charge rent, just pay their utilities and not have drug parties or whatnot.” And I said, “No, that’s unlikely,” you know. So I said, you know, I could throw the phone down and ran down to get in her car and go over to this house with her. And we were driving over, and she says, “You know, it’s not the best neighborhood.” I said, “Perfect!” But we got there, and it was a really great little three bedroom house in a predominantly Latina neighborhood, and that was our first new monastic house. So I asked three of the students who’d been crying in my office, “Would you be willing to break your leases wherever you live and come and live here for a year?” And I can assign a spiritual director to work with you, and I can write a curriculum for an independent study on the theory and practice of new monasticism. And we can develop a Rule of Life based on our United Methodist membership vows. And they all immediately said yes, and so that’s how we got started with our first house. Elaine Heath And then right around the same time, I started a missional house church that was quickly relocated into the neighborhood where most of the refugees are resettled in Dallas, because one of my students brought six Congolese men to our little house church worship, and that that was the beginning of realizing we were called to work with refugees. Debra Rienstra Oh, I see. Elaine Heath So that all got started around 2008. And by 2009, there was a student who came to Perkins who had been a commercial real estate banker on Wall Street. And he came to Perkins as a student. He was an older man. And we were going on my very first pilgrimage to Iona, Northumbria, and Lindisfarne, and Michael Hahn was with us too. He and I team-taught this class, so it was my first one. But it turned out that Larry Duggins, the student, had come to seminary because he really wanted to be equipped to help young adults who were feeling disillusioned with the church but wanted to be out in the world doing good work. And he started describing what he was called to, and I’m like, “Well, that’s what I’m doing with these students.” So we joined forces and created a nonprofit called Missional Wisdom Foundation, and within three years, we had a network of eight new monastic communities across the metroplex. They were all anchored at local churches. Some of them were parsonages that weren’t being used. And we wove into the expectations and sort of the lifestyle of those houses, urban agriculture. Debra Rienstra Oh, I was waiting for the farm to come back into it. Yeah, because I’m seeing these threads of experimentation and monasticism and place. We’re sitting here today on your current farm land. So it’s really interesting to hear all these threads being developed early on in an urban context. Elaine Heath Yes, it was quite something. These houses were all in different social contexts. There was one house, the Bonhoeffer house, that was in East Dallas, in a neighborhood that was not only mix

    45 min

  5. 10/12/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 36

    Father Pete Nunally is the founder of Water and Wilderness Church, a Washington DC-based outdoor church and watershed community. You can read more about the model of Water and Wilderness Church here. Father Pete is a passionate and well-spoken advocate on his social media pages and other forums, as in this interview with Creation Justice Ministries. Many thanks to Father Pete and the lovely group of people who welcomed Ron and me to Fletcher’s Cove to worship with them last May. Winter? No problem. They worship outside anyway. Father Pete and some very faithful ducks. TRANSCRIPT Pete Nunnally And so this expression and experience of worship begins to expand, and I think people are really looking for that. They want the church to tell them and to show them that God is everywhere, and that particularly in the natural world, the theological thumbprint of God is on all of this, and there’s not a distinction or separation, but actually there’s a union. Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I’m your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we’re paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I’m talking with Father Pete Nunnally, founder of Water and Wilderness Church. Father Pete is an Episcopal priest with a tender heart and a sense of adventure. The Water and Wilderness community meets outdoors for worship in several locations around the Washington DC area, adapting traditional worship forums in ways that enrich our encounter with God by reconnecting us with the rivers and trees and sky around us. Water and Wilderness is also a dispersed community, connecting anyone anywhere through online book studies, in-person retreats, and more. I talked with Father Pete outdoors, of course, at Fletcher’s Cove on the Potomac River, just before joining their outdoor worship service. This interview includes a bonus trivia component. For extra points, see if you can identify the birds that join our conversation in the second half of the episode. Let’s get to it. Debra Rienstra Father Pete, thanks so much for being with me today. Pete Nunnally I’m so glad to be here. Debra Rienstra It’s great to talk to you. So let’s start with what Water and Wilderness Church is right now. You’re not a traditional congregation with a building. What are you, exactly? Pete Nunnally We are a church. We’re an outdoor worshiping community geographically located in DC, but we are also a watershed community of the heart and worked in a lot of churches, and everything that that church did, wherever I was, was really only for the people at that church. But what’s different about Water and Wilderness Church is the concept of watershed community. So the local community here in DC is like a wellspring, and out of that flow tributaries that go all over the country, and we create this watershed. And I use that word to mean both the watershed of a new idea or a new understanding of something, but also, like our physical watersheds are so important to us. And so anybody, anywhere—what I often say is Water and Wilderness Church, what we do is for anybody, anywhere, all the time. So if you are in Indiana, Arizona, California, these are states where we have people that are actively engaged in some of our online formation and things like that. That everything we do is for everyone, and most importantly, for the benefit of the earth. Debra Rienstra I wanted to ask about whether watershed was both literal and metaphorical for you, and it definitely is. You’ve also described Water and Wilderness Church as a threshold space. So what does that mean to you? Pete Nunnally I am influenced by so many of my friends that don’t go to church anymore, and so many folks that label themselves spiritual but not religious. They just aren’t going to go into a traditional church building. And I want to take what’s beautiful and valuable about our Christian tradition, and I’m Episcopalian, so, you know, the Episcopal version of the mainline expression, and translate that and then bring it out to where people are. My sister, during Covid, said they take walks on Sunday morning with her family in different parks. And she said, “I get more out of that than I do going to church. I don’t think we’re going to go back to church.” And I thought, man, I get that. And when I tell that to priests and other church people, they nod their head and they say, like, yeah. Some of them are like, “I wish I could take a walk on Sunday morning.” Like, well, how can we receive this reality that people are living into, and they really are searching and seeking deep spiritual connection, but they’re forced to take an a la carte approach. Like I walk in the woods and I get peace there, or I read a book by Thich Nhat Hanh, and I get a little bit of peace. I do you know, like a little bit of divinity here, a little bit of divinity there. Nothing that grounds all of that together. So to me, to take what’s ancient, holy and divine about our Christian tradition and what we understand about God, and then to bring it out of the doors of the church, but with integrity, into the wild places, engraft our worship onto the worship of God that is creation. And I think that’s what I mean when I say a threshold space. Like this is the world. This is the human world, this is the natural world. And then we sometimes just hide all of our really juicy, beautiful stuff about the Christian life as we’ve understood it for 2000 years, and we kind of lock that up into the church. And so we’re trying to bring that out of the church and in a way that has integrity, but is in new spaces and lowering barriers for entry for people. Debra Rienstra Yeah, so you’re responding to this kind of pervasive alienation between people and the natural world. One of the things I read on your website, and one of the things that you’ve said frequently, is, “What’s good for the earth is good for the soul.” Yeah. Say a little more about how that phrase is meaningful for you. Pete Nunnally I think we forget that we are part of the community of creation. This is a phrase I got from you. Debra Rienstra Well, I got it from Randy Woodley. Pete Nunnally Randy, what a great writer and theologian. And so for a long time, we’ve forgotten that. Did you know our Christian tradition is an indigenous tradition, really? And we’ve scrubbed all of that away. You know the concept of Ubuntu, the African concept of “I am because you are,” and I cannot be a person if you’re not a person. So like the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you. Like we understand that African sort of understanding that Desmond Tutu and others talk about, but what if we looked at creation the same way? That we can’t be fully human unless the wild world that God created is free to be itself also. And we do. We’ve isolated ourselves from this world, like nobody knows—we’re eating foods that are out of season all year round, and kids grow up and they think that the food comes from the grocery store. And yet, part of what draws us out into the world—see, part of why I like worshiping here is there’s just people around. And you know, like they wanted to come and just be by the river today. Debra Rienstra Explain where we are today. Pete Nunnally We are at a place called Fletcher’s Cove and Boathouse. It is a park along the Potomac River in DC proper. And once you get in, kind of the whole place opens up. There’s forest that goes right up into the river. And actually, the Potomac River is tidal in this area, believe it or not, we still have tides all the way up here, and it’s a beautiful place. All kinds of people come to the edge of the river to enjoy themselves. It’s incredibly diverse: people of different nationalities, and celebrating birthdays and graduations and beautiful days. And I like to worship here because you have the combination of people, but also, it really is forest along the river, and so the trees are down and slowly giving themselves back to the earth, and you’re interrupted sometimes by, in our worship, by what’s going on in the natural world. And of course, that’s not an interruption, it’s just what God brings us next. So we have migratory birds and blue herons, and the shad run is just about over, but shad and herring come up the river to spawn, and that brings fishermen out along the river, including myself. And so you get to experience a fuller version of what happens in the world when you’re in a wild place, and when you worship in that same space over and over again, you get to know it through the seasons, and it gets to know you. So we become known to the trees and the river when we continue to come back over and over. Debra Rienstra Yeah. So you do outdoor worship, but you have other things going on too. So describe some of the other things that you do. Pete Nunnally Well, we do Zoom book studies. Our very first one was Refugia Faith. Debra Rienstra Oh, I’ve heard that’s good. Pete Nunnally It’s really well written, insightful, highly recommend to everyone. And that’s exciting, because we have 20 to 30 people from all over the country who join and it really is a community of the heart, like, “Oh, I believe that I see God in nature.” And a lot of these folks come from a Christian background, but their traditional worship, it’s not doing it for them anymore. And they want to be validated, because you feel so alone when you’re like, “I love Jesus. I grew up with church,

    42 min

  6. 10/05/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 35

    Doug Kaufman directs the Anabaptist Climate Collaborative, an organization that leads climate justice initiatives from an Anabaptist faith perspective. Doug and his team support Mennonite and other Anabaptist churches, helping to build networks, train leaders, and empower climate-related initiatives. Doug describes environmental work as a form of peacemaking, a way of countering the slow violence of actions that cause and exacerbate climate change. Thanks to Doug for geeking out with me on theology and offering some glimpses of Mennonite climate work. Explore some of Doug’s writing on climate advocacy here. In this episode, we highlight several Anabaptist faith communities who are pursuing climate justice through simple, sustainable living: * The Taftsville Chapel and their climate initiative called the Schoolhouse for Simple Living * Doug’s “Mennonite cookbook canon”: * More-with-Less Cookbook by Doris Longacre * Simply in Season by Mary Beth Lind and Cathleen Hockman-Wert * Extending the Table by Joetta Handrich Schlabach * Sustainable Kitchen by Heather Wolfe and Jaynie McCloskey This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

    54 min

  7. 09/28/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 34

    Dave Celesky founded called Redeem MI Land, a nonprofit organization inspiring communities of faith in Michigan to invest personally in land restoration projects. Dave describes how his home church, Unity Reformed in Norton Shores, Michigan, has supported the very first Redeem MI Land project, creating a prototype for other communities to follow. Dave’s church is also joining a cohort of A Rocha USA, an organization that supports Christian communities in doing environmental restoration work and integrating love for creation more deeply into congregational life. Many thanks to Dave for hosting Ron and me one sunny afternoon as we visited the worksite now in the process of restoration from an old garbage dump to a healthy meadow and wetland. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

    38 min
  8. Refugia Podcast Episode 33

    09/21/2025

    Refugia Podcast Episode 33

    In this episode, Rev. Dr. Heber Brown, founder of the Black Church Food Security Network, describes how experimenting with one small church garden led to connections with other churches and then with farmers and eventually to a transformed ecosystem—in this case, a food shed. This inspiring refugia story weaves through health justice, food security, and climate resilience. Even more, this story celebrates the power of relationships among thousands of gifted, passionate, faithful people. Many thanks to Heber Brown for graciously welcoming us to a church garden at one of the network churches in Baltimore, where we enjoyed chatting together in the greenhouse. To learn more about Rev. Dr. Heber Brown as a pastor, writer, and speaker, take a look at his website. You can also explore the wider work of the Black Church Food Security Network here. Rev. Dr. Heber Brown TRANSCRIPT Heber Brown Our garden has really become like a front door. It’s a demonstration site. You’re not going to feed an entire city or community with a church garden, but it becomes an activation space for your congregation members and the neighbors to come and reap the personal and individual benefits of just being closer to soil, but then also to practice what collectivism looks like in a garden space. It’s a very controlled environment for a laboratory for, “how do we do this together?” And those learnings can roll over into other places as well. Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I’m your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we’re paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I’m talking with Rev. Dr. Heber Brown, founder of the Black Church Food Security Network. Beginning with a small congregation, a 1500-square foot garden, and a divine calling, the Black Church Food Security Network now connects 250 Black churches and 100 Black farmers in the Mid-Atlantic states and beyond. Reverend Brown’s story weaves through issues of health justice, food security and climate resilience. And I love how beautifully this story illustrates the power of refugia. One small experiment started to form connections, then spread and eventually transformed a whole ecosystem—in this case, a food shed. I think you’ll find Heber’s brilliance and humility and joy inspiring, but he would be the first to say that this network is built on relationships among thousands of gifted, passionate, faithful people. People finding and exercising their beauty and agency is the best part of this story. Let’s get to it. Debra Rienstra Heber, it’s so great to talk to you today. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. Heber Brown Thank you for the opportunity. Debra Rienstra You’ve told your origin story about the Black Food Security Network a million times. Will you tell it again for our listeners? Heber Brown Absolutely. So, somewhere about five years in to pastoring a beautiful congregation here in Baltimore City called the Pleasant Hope Baptist Church, I began to notice a pattern of members of our congregation who were being hospitalized, and in response to that, like any well trained pastor will do, we do the things that seminary and other places have taught us: to show up by the bedside, give prayer, give encouragement, don’t stay too long, and get to the next member who needs that kind of pastoral care. And so I was doing what my family—which was a family full of pastors—and seminary taught me to do: to go and visit. And during those visits, and while extending that encouragement, those prayers and the like, I also got the opportunity to do deep listening and learn some things about the people in my church, that stuff that doesn’t necessarily and normally come out on a Sunday morning during all of the activity of a service. And one of the things that would come up, that started to come up in the confidentiality of those sacred circles, was the ways that diet and food was a part of the picture that was leading to the dis-ease and suffering, physical suffering, of those in the church. And I began to hear that over and over again. So I’m going, I’m praying, I’m giving scripture, I’m listening, shaking hands and moving on, and listening and hearing about food being in the picture. Alright, next visit. I’m going, I’m praying, I’m giving scripture, I’m giving encouragement, I’m listening, shaking hands, move to the next person. Food comes up again. It came up so much that eventually I got tired of just hearing about this challenge and walking away. I got unsettled by listening to people who I love and share life with, share with me their challenges, and as much as I believe and know that prayer is powerful, I wondered if there was ways that I could pray in a different way, pray through action. And so I got the idea—well, God gave vision. Well, no, God didn’t give the first vision. The first one was just my idea. And my idea was to partner with the local market that was really right across the main intersection from our church. And I wanted some type of pathway so that food from that market could get to our church, get to our members, and it could improve their quality of life and address the health challenges in our church. But I still remember the day I went over to that market. And when I went to that market, and I looked at the prices of the produce, and then I also took note of the—as the young folks would say—the vibe of the space. It failed the vibe test, and it failed the price tag test. I saw barriers that would prevent, or at least slow this idea around nutrient-rich produce coming from that market right across the main intersection to our church within walking distance. And I got frustrated by that. I was frustrated because what we needed was right within reach. It was right at our fingertips, literally, but those barriers there would have made it very difficult for us to acquire and obtain the food that was there. Over the years, and like you said, I’ve told this story many times, and it’s a living story, and so even my reflections on parts of it illuminates different ways, even at this stage of my journey with this. But I thought about like, what stopped me from talking to the market manager anyway? So I made the decision on that day just to walk out and say, “No, I’m not going to pursue partnership.” As I reflect on it, I interrogate myself, like, “Why didn’t you at least have a conversation? Because who knows, something could have come out of the conversation, and maybe they would have given you the food for free or the discounted rate...” et cetera, et cetera. And when I sat with that and I thought about it more, I think there was something within me that didn’t want free food. I thought, and I still think to this day, in a different, deeper, more conscious way, more aware way—but back then it was just something within where I thought that free food would have been too expensive. And not in a dollars and cents kind of way. That would have cost us too much with respect to our dignity, our sense of somebody-ness, and I did not want to lead my congregation in kind of genuflecting to the benevolence and charity, sense of charity, of the “haves” of the neighborhood. I did not want to reinforce kind of an inferiority complex that comes with staying in a posture of subservience to what you can recognize to be unjust and racist systems that keep food away from people when I believe that food is a God-given right. Healthy, nutritious food is a God-given right. I didn’t want to lead my congregation into that, and I didn’t want to reinforce even a sense of superiority, which is an equally devastating and damaging thing to the human soul, to think that these poor Black people are coming across the street to get food, and we are in the position to help those poor, at risk, needy people. Whether inferiority or superiority, both, I believe, are corrosive to the human soul. I did not have the articulation of that then, but I had enough in me that was living in that space that stopped me from leading our congregation into a partnership there. And so I left out, I walked back to the church. While I’m walking back to the church, near the front door of our church, there’s a plot of land, and that land I’d walked past a thousand times before that day, but on that day, with divine discontent bubbling up inside of me, that’s when God gave a vision. God vetoed my idea, gave a real vision, and that vision was rooted in us growing our own food in the front yard of our congregation. And so I go inside the church and I announce this vision to members of the church, and I remember saying to them, “Hey, y’all. God gave me a vision!” And I saw eyes rolling, like, “Oh, here he goes again.” I was at that time, I was in my early thirties. I started pastoring at 28 years old. And, you know, I came in at 28, I had all the ideas in the world. We was gonna fix everything by the weekend. And this patient congregation gave me room to work out all of that energy around changing everything immediately. So they were used to hearing this kind of stuff from me before, and so the rolling of the eyes when I said, “Hey, y’all, let’s start a garden,” was quite expected, but I’m grateful for a remnant of the folks who said, “This one actually might work. Let’s stick with him. Let’s go with him on this.” And that remnant and I, we got together, we started growing food in the front yard of our c

    53 min
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About

Host Debra Rienstra interviews a different guest each week, exploring the idea of refugia from a variety of perspectives, from biology to worship to politics. Refugia are places of shelter where life endures in times of crisis. We’re exploring what it means for people of faith to be people of refugia. refugianewsletter.substack.com

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