What If Marvel was Real?

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  • SCIENCE FICTION

What if... the Marvel Universe was real? In 1961 the Fantastic Four revealed themselves to the world and everything changed. Mike and Ed discuss the in-universe implications of super powers, aliens, monsters and more. From how Avenger Insurance will pay for Thor's property damage to why Spider-man needs a new PR agency, its comic books discussions in a whole new way. Every issue covered in the Marvel Universe from the very beginning. Full backstory on every episode with transcripts at www.SuperSerious616.com www.superserious616.com

  1. 06/30/2023

    E207: Superheroes are the new machine guns (Journey Into Mystery #116) -- June 1965

    In this episode: Mike and Ed continue their discussions on what the original Avengers are doing in their post-Avengers lives. For instance, Thor now seems to be working for the American military in Vietnam. Was he drafted? Or did he consider deserting to move back to Asgard? Will super-powered individuals become the next weapon of war? Will heroes sell their services to the highest bidding country? Is there a way to stop the escalation, or is this just the new way of the world? Behind the issue: Stan had Thor appear in Vietnam, but never had him coordinating with the US military. Comic books in the 1940s were practically US-propaganda, and the heroes were expected to be fighting against Hitler. But in the 1960s, the writers mostly kept the heroes out of real-world conflicts. It wasn’t until the modern era that writers considered the possibility of heroes fighting in Vietnam. In this issue: Thor is spotted in Vietnam and shot by a hunter. The hunter then comes across an ancient temple and, through the machinations of Loki, the hunger takes over the Destroyer armour with his mind. The hunter pilots the Destroyer in a fight with Thor. Meanwhile on Asgard, Loki is imprisoned. This episode takes place: While people are still adjusting to “Cap’s Kooky Quartet” - and missing their “old” Avengers. Assumed before the next episode: People are wondering what Thor was doing in Southeast Asia. Full transcript: Edward: All right, Mike. Continuing our, where are they now? Series. We now know where Thor has been for the last couple of months. Michael: Yeah. He's decided to take his retirement to Vietnam. Edward: Vietnam, you'd think with his hair like that, he would've been a conscientious objector, but no Siri, don't stereotype Thor. He is right there with the military. Right in the thick of things. Michael: All kidding aside, it's pretty wild that this man, or this being Thor, who's associated with, the American military and the military industrial complex has gone to Vietnam, clearly on behalf of the Americans, and intervened in international affairs. Clearly as an agent of America, or at least on America's interest. Yeah, for sure. Doesn't that make it a little more complicated over there? Is that what we wanna, Edward: I think it makes it less complicated. ANCO was clear before that the Avengers were an American superhero organization that had American interest at heart. Their leader was Captain America. It's pretty clear that they were into America and hey, they were supported and run by, stark Corp, who are like basically a big American company. They're an American team now, Thor leaves the American team that he leaves the Avengers. What does he do next? He doesn't go back up to Asgard. He goes and works for American interests in a non Avengers way. Michael: It seems a little, isn't it? I don't know. I find it uncomfortable that we would entrust, international diplomacy to, well, it's costume adventures. Edward: Well, it's not diplomacy. He's not negotiating peace treaties. He's swinging his hammer and like on a hitting North Vietcong. Michael: But this. But there's consequences to that though. Like aren't you worried that that's gonna lead to say, other Superpowered beings that might be drafted in by the Vietcong to fight American soldiers overseas in, Edward: do the Viet Cong have a superhero? Michael: Not yet. Well, there you go. Not yet, but there you go. But you don't think the Chinese might have an interest in this. Have a say in it. Edward: That's, that, that is true. We know the Chinese do have their own superheroes. Radioactive man. Radioactive man. So, you're saying it's an escalation of the conflict. And maybe this means China sends in radioactive man, but China is not like US is directly involved in that war. China is only indirectly involved, right? They have plausible deniability. If they send in radioactive man, there goes their plausible deniability. Michael: Well first of all, there hasn't been a military briefing or any kind of official report in that Thor is going there on the direction or in service of the United States. So, I think the United States is trying to do this if they're doing it under some kind of plausible deniability scenario, and China could do the same thing, like we don't control radioactive man. He's just a guy who believes in our values and that's why he is fighting. He's just showing up and fighting. Showing up and fighting, and that's why he is fighting the Americans in Vietnam. Edward: But there's no Chinese soldiers in the vie, they're supplying them with weapons and stuff, but they're not supplying them with people I don't think. Here's the question. That's an ex escalation though. Here's, here's the question. Was Thor just drafted? Maybe he was just part of the draft. Michael: I don't know. Well, he might have been, but that Edward: his number came up and he off he went. Michael: He, had to go. Edward: He had to go. He had no choice. Michael: He was gonna fly away to Asgard. But No, but I'm still thinking about deescalation, Edward: other deserters run to. Canada, but not Thor. He heads to a whole intervention, flies to another, another realm, a mystical realm. Yeah. But he knew he wanted to come back to America. So he knew that if he abandoned us, we weren't gonna let him back in. Michael: So if I look at it and you look at it, the Vietnamese will probably look at it and the Chinese look at it that America has sent a superpowered individual to fight a battle on their behalf. Clearly that what has happened. So I would think that the natural response would be that the Vietnamese through some kind of connection have one of their own. And then now we have, are we having our superpowered heroes and villains or people fighting each other? Not just fighting each other, but fighting regular powered humans? Well, I think so. It's like if they think if they we're getting to a different era, I guess, Edward: but I think, these people have powers and they're outta capabilities. It's almost like, if we had a really good tank, let's not use it because the other guys might bring in a big tank. We have airplanes, let's not use airplanes cuz the other guys might have airplanes. We have an advantage over the Vietnamese right now because we have superheroes and they don't. Not using them, I think would be irresponsible. Americans would die if not for Thor. Thor is probably saving American lives right as we speak. Michael: Yeah, but Ed, right now, America could use nuclear bombs in Vietnam, but they're not gonna, they're not, not, Edward: we're not gonna use nuclear. But nuclear bombs have all sorts of like side effects that a lightning bolt from Thor, there's no radiation when he fires a lightning bolt and blows up a, nothing like a depot. Michael: Lightning, basically Radiation? Edward: No, it's, no, it's not radiation any more than the light is radiation. Michael: Not basically, but I'm sure there is radiation that comes off of, there's certainly the light part of it and that part of the spectrum. Edward: Yeah, but there's no radiation. It's not radioactive. When you get hit by lightning, you're not gonna cause cancer when you get hit by lightning. Now you may die when you get hit by lightning, but it's not gonna cause future cancers. Michael: But my point is that America could use nuclear weapons, but they don't because they don't, they know that that could lead to an escalation. So isn't sending a superhero in kind of similar thing? Edward: It's more than an escalation response. Yes. Yes. I think it's a big, we should not be using nuclear weapons. We don't want to go down that route. But a superhero is not a nuclear weapon. We use superheroes all the time. We use superheroes all the time for, we use superheroes when stilt man attacks New York City, we're not gonna drop a nuclear weapon on Stilt Man. Michael: No, but the difference is that there's a difference between fighting crime in the city and then going to another nation. To affect foreign policy through, excessive force similar to a nuclear bomb sending, I think a superpower person's gonna do the, achieve the same result. Edward: I feel that the Vietnam War is already at the excessive force stage. We're, we're not like, this is devastating. Let's have a, let's have a very stern conversation with them. Like there's people shooting at each other there there's war happening, there's helicopters and bombs and Tanks and so why shouldn't Thor be involved to, to help put an end to this thing Michael: But this is a devastating next step. I mean the fact that you say it's irresponsible for them not to use Thor means, cuz you know, he's gonna be particularly effective. Much like individuals are bombed. Yeah, I think so. Why don't, so doesn't this lead to other nations around the world saying like, well better get some more superpowered individuals and then it gets into a bidding war. We've already talked about how the Avengers used to be a bunch of strangers who kind of got together very powerful and they've basically disbanded. And now it's like a bunch of former villains, you know, who are now with Captain America, which is pretty bizarre to say that they, Edward: Maybe this makes even more sense now, right? If you have these people like. Quicksilver and the witch and the Hawkeye. And your choice is, hey, bring them onto the Avengers and make them part of our team. Or let them become free agents and join the Soviets. Maybe that makes the most sense that we brought them onto the team. Michael: Maybe, but are we not getting to an era? Mercenaries, the superheros turning to mercenaries. What keeps them loyal to one particular ideology over another? I don't know, like is the American structure better than, the American democracy better than other forms of political philosophies in governments?  You talk to every American I've ever spoken with, they'd say, no, it's the best. But other nations have different approaches to, policy

    11 min

  2. 06/23/2023

    E206: When they tell you what they are, believe them (Amazing Spider-Man #26) -- June 1965

    In this episode: Mike and Ed discuss how the Goblin and the Crime Master may be the same person. Also, the Green Goblin is now clearly a villain. His early work attacking crime families seems to just have been so he can consolidate organized crime under his own leadership. Ed admits his earlier errors and Mike helps Ed understand that goblins are, historically, not known for their altruism. What does it say about Mr. Fantastic? Behind the issue: This is the first appearance of the Crime Master (he dies in the next issue, and unlike most dead villains is never resurrected - at least as of this writing in 2023). In the issue Stan leads the reader (and Spider-man) to believe that Fredrick Foswell (formerly the Big Man, now “reformed”) is secretly The Crime Master. When it turns out that Foswell was actually on the side of good and the Crime Master’s secret identity was someone who had never been mentioned before, Spider-man says something about how “sometimes it’s just a random guy”. In the future Stan will write another reverse and Foswell will go back to being a villain, but for now he is one of the heroes of the story. In this issue: The Green Goblin meets up with the Crime-Master to see if he will join forces with him to take over the criminal underworld of New York City. But the Crime-Master declines. A crime cold war begins anew. It turns out that the Crime-Master is actually Frederick Foswell, the allegedly reformed Big Man who has returned after his stint in prison to work as a newspaper reporter again for the Daily Bugle. Anyway, Spider-Man gets caught up in the middle of this crime cold war, and the Goblin captures him. The Goblin takes an unconscious Spider-Man to a crime meeting that the Crime-Master had set up to announce that he was the leader of NYC’s criminals - but the Goblin has other plans. This episode takes place: Around the time of a crime cold war in New York City. Assumed before the next episode: People are wondering what Thor was doing in Southeast Asia - and also why costumed criminals are making a splashy play for power in New York. Full transcript: Edward: Uh, Mike, the green goblin, I stand corrected. Green Goblin is not a hero. He is not a good guy. He, Michael: shocker Ed. Just a but the shocker, Edward: so Mike, I admit when I'm wrong. I admit that even though he was doing a heroic thing, trying to take down crime families, he was not doing it for a good reason. Michael: He wasn't altruistic. He wasn't just like, you know what? I wanna, you know what I do? My spare time is just take down, and weaken crime families and just let them just see what happens afterwards. It turns out he was trying to take them over. Edward: So, there's a difference whether it's the meaning behind the action that's important or the effect that's important. And if the effect was to eliminate crime, may, maybe he was, maybe he was a good guy even in spite of himself. Uh, okay. It's, it's a stretch. Michael: That's a bit of a stretch, Eddie. Like, I mean, look, what I think is that, the last time we spoke about this, you were saying, Hey, it looks like the green goblin is a hero. And you can't read too much into it, I guess. But if I was. Talking to you. I said, ed, going forward, I want you to refer to me as the ogre. You'd be like, you'd say Mike, like, what's going on with you? I'd say, I don't know. I just want you to, I want you to call me an ogre. You know, believe me then there might be a problem and I might view myself negatively. And so if someone says, I'm the green goblin, you're basically saying, I am scary. I am someone to fear I'm not a hero. Edward: En vain, probably vain or, no. Envious. Envious. Isn't it? Green with envy. Agree with envy, an envious, Michael: there's no goblin, there no goblin in history. You're like, you know, like, I like that guy. I think, you know, I'd like to maybe hire him as a babysitter. It's a goblin. They eat children. This is what goblins are like. They have riddles and it's just, they're not good. So they're negative. Edward: Yeah, but we can't just, it's not just the name. Like what about Spider-Man? Spider-Man is a hero, but people don't like spiders. People are terrified of spiders. Michael: And people don't really like Spider-Man, ed. We talked about this before about how Spider-Man isn't, we think it might be the mass, but it may very well be because he's naming himself after an insect that no one likes. Like it's just Edward: call himself the honey beak, make honey for you. Michael: Or maybe not do non insect related. I'm sure that you could have come up with a different costume and named himself like, I dunno, the hawk or something just jumped or whatever. Or something. But anyways, my point is that sometimes we don't really have to look that far past the name, because I think they're telling us what they think of themselves. Like we know that, say, captain America obviously thinks highly of himself and wants to in America project something. And America I bet be he cares America. America, he wants to be a representative of America. He is trying to project a positivity, right? Like Ironman is strong symbol. They're trying to act heroically, like Thor, whether Thor really is a God from Norse mythology. If he isn't and he's just a guy with crazy powers, he obviously thinks highly of himself and wants to project as a hero. Those are things that are different than, say, the goblin who's telling us, this is who I am. You know, Thor says, I want you to think of me as this striking Norris hero. And the goblin is the opposite. Edward: So what you're, what you're saying is we should start judging more books by their covers. Michael: I think we gotta take it as a hint, I think it's fair to say that you look at even the Fantastic four The Thing clearly has some self-esteem issues and he does look like a rocky monster, whereas Mr. Fantastic has zero problem. He wants everyone to know how wonderful he is. And again, he's probably, again, we've had the conversation similar to this. He probably isn't the nicest guy cuz he's, he's on the team with The Thing. He's obviously making, he's bragging about how going into space, And getting bombarded cosmic rays was awesome, Mr. Fantastic. It's amazing. And then, and then his teammate's like, oh, I'm The Thing. It just tells us that Mr. Fantastic probably isn't that fantastic, really. But at least he thinks he is. And he's projecting as a hero. Edward: So you're saying, so, so the go, the Goblin thinks he's a goblin. Michael: He thinks he's a bad guy and then it turns out he was, and you heard it and you kind of twisted yourself into some, you know, some, some knots. Edward: I'm a consequentialist Mike. At the end of the day, what happens is what matters. What happens is what matters. You got the best intentions in the world, like those communists, I'm sure they were trying to be all but love and sharing and trying to help everybody, and that the result was millions of people died Under Stalin, consequentialist, Mike, what matters is what happens, not what the intentions were. And so the goblin had really bad intentions, but he stopped some crime. Michael: I think he should read more books, ed? Edward: I think so. I think so. Okay. Well, so anyway, so the situation we're at right now is that the goblin is clearly moved from, being good in a consequentialist ba basis, but being bad in intention basis, just being bad all around. He's like, they, they think they battle around. The goblin might actually be the crime master. They're the same person. If not the same person, they're definitely working together. They're trying to take out all the other criminal underworld, combine them into one, not just take them out, but just amalgamate them into one group all under the goblin and the crime master, or well, or if they're one in the same, so that's what's going on. Clearly bad dudes. Clearly bad, but, if you're gonna use the names, a goblin isn't going to be the master of crime. The goblin is gonna be the little minion running around, but he's projecting out like master of crime now, the head of the underworld. So he's moving past his name and maybe that's why he's changing it to the crime master. Michael: Maybe, but it's not, again, that's not saying too, too, too, too far. I mean one name isn't supposed to explain someone's core identity. It's just that he's not good. Edward: That's what you said point, I thought you said it all. Not about the core identity. Michael: No. You're saying, you're saying he's more of a minion because of his name, like No, no, he's, he's just a bad dude. I'm saying that when they tell you who they are, like say the brotherhood of evil mutants, they're probably the evil mutants. You know, if they say the Avengers, they're probably the, they're probably trying to, you know, avenge a lot. Edward: What are they fantastic for? Think they're wonderful. What are the Avengers Avening, are they Avening? Anything in particular? Just in general? Michael: Well, it's a positive message. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    6 min

  3. 06/16/2023

    E205: They Don't Make Villains Like They Used to (Daredevil #8) -- June 1965

    Thank you for staying with us as we missed another week last week. Edward is traveling with his family this summer, making recording difficult. We still have a half dozen episodes recorded and we will trickle them out over the summer months, but there may be a few weeks this summer without an episode. But we have some fun ones coming! This one made me laugh while I was editing it… Enjoy! In this episode: Mike and Ed discuss Daredevil’s recent loss to Stilt-Man. Does Daredevil even have any super powers? If not, is he just a crazy man who swings from building to building with a grapple hook? And what’s up with Stilt-Man? Did he choose his own name? Why doesn’t he have extendable arms as well? Is this all a joke? And if so, how did the “joke” defeat Daredevil? Behind the issue: This is the first appearance of Stilt-Man, who goes on to try out names like “Stilty” and “Daddy Long Legs”. By the end of the issue, Stilt-Man is defeated and shrunk into nothingness. That does not stop him, though, as he comes back to be active in the Marvel Universe through to the present day (he is killed by the Punisher at one point, but his clone continues to use his stilts for villainy). In this issue: A new villain appears on the scene - Stilt-Man - and he starts his career of villainy by robbing a helicopter mid-flight. Seems complicated for a heist, but there you have it. In any event, Daredevil tries to take Stilt-Man down after the heist, but does not succeed. Back in his civilian guise as Matt Murdock, Daredevil takes on a new client, Wilbur Day, who hires Matt to sue his boss Mr. Kaxton, who has stolen his patent. As the case goes on, Stilt Man continues his crime spree. It is eventually revealed that Wilbur is Stilt-Man. He goes on the run from Daredevil, and eventually, he is hoisted on his own petard when he accidentally turns his shrinking ray on himself, shrinking him to apparent nothingness. This episode takes place: After the short reign of Stilt-Man comes to an end. Assumed before the next episode: People did not really think much about Stilt-Man. Full transcript: Edward: Mike Daredevil is not dead, but he has been pretty badly injured, and I think this is what you get when you have someone who's just a vigilante with no real powers trying to take on super villains. Michael: Well, wait a minute. I don't know if he's spoken about this before, but is he a normal guy? Just in a funny costume, like he seems fine. He define seems similar. Edward: Well, define normal. You say normal to what does normal mean? Michael: Okay, so Spider-Man isn't normal, right? We know Spider-Man. Spiderman isn't normal. Climb balls and he's swinging from building to building. But what do we know about Daredevil? He fights on rooftops and kind of swings down from rooftops. Like, I could not, Edward: but he swings on a grappling hook. You could swing at a grappling hook. Michael: No, there's, there's a, there's a zero chance, even in the best shape of my life, would I use a grappling hook to swing from one building to another without a net? Edward: I'm not saying is something, I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do, but I'm saying you could do it. I think if push came to shove, I have faith in you, Mike. I think you could swing from a building to building. It's in a rope. You could, all you have to is hold onto the rope. Just hold onto the rope. Michael: Ed, have you ever gone to a cottage on a lake in the summer we're gonna a swimming hole and there's a rope? Yeah. And the rope it's tied to a branch overhanging in the water Sure. And the rope. And you grab the rope and you swing out. Yeah. That is still scary. Cause if you don't let go in time and you go back to shore and you let go, then you land on the rocks. Yeah. That's bad. As opposed to the water. So would I swing like that without the water? No, Edward: well, I'm not saying you would do it because you, cuz you have more sense than Daredevil does. Are you saying Daredevil's superpower is he's unafraid Michael: The man with no fear. I mean, he is. Pretty fearless, I suppose. But my point isn't that, that's what you would say is his superpower, is my take is that he, I think he has, he must have a superpower. He can't just be a regular guy in great shape who's like, no, cuz like, it seems like swinging from building to building isn't necessary to do what he's doing either. It's like, you know what I mean? It seems like, it seems like almost like an add-on, like gratus gratuitous s**t. Gratuitous. Yeah. Like, and it would be exhausting, think about Ed. I don't know the last time you tried to do a pull up or a chin up, but imagine that and Edward: I can do pullups and chin-ups. I can do that. Michael: Okay. They're hard cause you're lifting your full body weight up. Now imagine you're doing that a few times through the evening and then you fight. Super villain. I mean, it does seem that's, Edward: I'm saying he's making poor choices with his life. Michael: Okay. Okay. So either he's making poor choices and he has no fear, or he's got some kind of superpower. So anyways, you and I were talking about that, but you mentioned Daredevil and Edward: yeah. And then you went off on how superpowered he is and I don't know if he actually is, I think Thank you. He, he clearly has exceptional abilities, right? Whether those are super abilities or not, it feels like he's in the Captain America style. Then Captain America some sort of super soldier. Yeah. But, but he's not, he can't breathe fire. He can't fly, he can't stick to walls. And I think Daredevil's in the same class, he's Clearly very athletic. But man, is he athletic take on super villains. What's just happened is he was very soundly defeated by, basically a guy in battle armor with really long legs. Michael: You know what? They're calling him, ed, Edward: they're calling him the stilt man. The villain, the stil man. Stil man. Michael: It's just, it, it's just, it's just ridiculous. I don't mind, I love, and you and I, obviously we have, we have a show about this. I do love how humanity is evolving in these new things we're seeing, but, Doesn't it seem like we're scraping the bottle of the barrel for the influences, where you're naming yourself and your whole persona, your super villain persona is based on, in this case, stilts. Edward: Well, did he name himself stilt matter or did the media name him Stilt Man? Well, I don't know, but they, but that's what he has. He wasn't having a press, he wasn't having a press release. He was just going out and robbing things and the poor guy got labeled as a stilt guy. Well, okay, but we got it. It should have . Called him, I don't know. Armor Battle man. Michael: It'd be better, but he's clearly got some kind of body armor. That's fine. Yeah. And bullets, power bullets off him. Right. Edward: And he can got that he stole from a helicopter. He used his well, his stilts to extend upward and then, stole from a helicopter that the helicopter thought they were safe. They're like, nobody can get us up here because there's no such thing as a flying villain. Oh, wait a minute. Or a stilt villain that just came up and sell. Michael: It's just, that's the defining. Feature of it is that whatever you wanna, like stilts is what they are. He has these extendable stilts and it just seems so stupid. It's just, I don't know, for all that technology, first of all, it's impressive. It's an impressive engineering feat to say if a helicopter is 500, a thousand feet in the air, To basically be able to extend your stilts up a thousand feet and not fall over. Edward: And then, and then, yeah, balance. Look at the balance on that guy. Michael: It's incredible. It's incredible technology. It's just that Edward: I would argue he probably more impressive than a grappling hook. Michael: I would give you that, but The Thing is, but why would you do that? Why would you spend all that engineering, why would you direct your energy towards that engineering feed where he could have created something else? Except, unless he's just going for the sort of the whimsy of, I'm a guy that has stills. I'm like really tall. Edward: He built like these hydraulic extension things that are, I think are really if you built this hydraulic extension technology and you decided you wanted to go and use it for crime?  What type of battle suit would you maybe I'd have extending arms too. I'd have like extension arms to go. Michael: The arms are way more practical. Yeah, but the think with the power you'd have. Bam. Edward: But they can do the same thing with his legs. He just kick people with like his big extension. Legs and kicks are more dangerous than arms. Michael: He's not, he's extending the stilt so that he can perfectly time getting in front of a helicopter and hoping the helicopter doesn't just turn around or just, Edward: if it does, he can, can chase after climb. They go fast. He can run, his steps per minute could be very low and he could still achieve very high velocity. Michael: We haven't seen any film of this, and I'd like to because that would be interesting. But anyways, the point I'm making though is I hate it. I hate the idea that we've gotten to the point in this marvelous age of heroes and villains and super scientists and aliens and gods, and it's like, you know what? We've kind of run our course. Let's have. A stilt based hero or villain? Villain. Villain. Like a psychic ladder. Ladder boy. Like any, you know, like tall guy. Edward: I think you can be cynical on his name, but clearly Daredevil has a better name than stilt man, but like this guy defeated Daredevil. And so whatever superpowers you think Daredevil has, apparently they were not powerful enough to defeat this poor villain that you're mocking. Michael: Oh no, I agree with you on that. Even though I think the daredevil must have some powers, powers are not, he's probably exhausted by the time he flipped around and grappled through the city to then

    7 min

  4. 06/02/2023

    E204: Recruiting for Strength (Avengers #17) -- June 1965

    In this episode: Mike and Ed discuss the Avengers’ public search for a fifth member: the Hulk. What are they thinking? Is strength the only requirement for membership? How bad is “rampaging” before you decide not to let someone on the team? Should someone take Captain America’s license away? Behind the issue: Stan Lee is leaning into the idea that the team is under-powered after losing the original Avengers. The team feels the same way until they discover that when they work together as a team they can defeat powerful villains — maybe they don’t need the Hulk after all? In this issue: The new Avengers meet for the first time. Rick Jones - teenage sidekick with no discernible powers or abilities - is jealous that the three new members - Scarlet Witch, who can warp reality; Quicksilver, who can run at the speed of thought; and Hawkeye, who has an uncanny martial abilities - are members and he is not. Anyways, Captain AAmerica announces to the fledgling team that their first mission is to find the Hulk to see if he will join their team. They then go to train, and a giant robot sent by the Mole Man breaks in and attacks them while informing them that they can find the Hulk in the desert. It’s a trap, obviously, but the Avengers still set out for the desert and battle the Mole Man’s Minotaur underground. Meanwhile, the Hulk chases down his foe, the Leader. The issue ends with the Avengers realizing that they are quite formidable on their own and do not really need the Hulk. Assumed before the next episode: People are still wondering what the deal is with this odd team of Avengers. This episode takes place: While the public considers whether the Hulk would be a good addition to the Avengers or not. Full transcript: Edward: All right, Mike, we know who the fifth member of the Avengers is or not. Is, is going to be, is going to be Michael: wild man. It's actually crazy. It's actually crazy. How do we get here? Edward: You thought given the fact that The Thing is leaving the fantastic f. For, they'd bring him in. Mm-hmm. As the big strong man. And they said, no, no, no. That's not crazy enough, Mike. That's not crazy enough. We're no, we're gonna go back to our roots and find the most powerful man in the world and bring him onto the Avengers cuz the Avengers are not the second best mark. They're not the second strongest person in the world. They're going for the strongest. Michael: Yeah so they're out there trying to find the Hulk because the Hulk is the strongest one there is. And it's like, hold on a second. He's caused a lot of damage. He's fought you guys. Edward: Of course, of course. He's caused damage. He's the strongest man in the world. How can the strongest person in the world not cause damage? Michael: He, he, He's a, well, I dunno if he's a man, he's a monster. Edward: They're, they're calling, they're, they're calling him a man. They're calling him, man. Michael: Okay. And I shouldn't be, so I don't want to be negative towards him. I don't wanna use pejorative terms. Edward: You're like monstrous. Is that a word? Michael: But he has acted monstrously, you know what I mean? Like, so he, he has, Edward: he's a person who acts like a monster. He's not a monster himself. Michael: Well, yeah, sure. That's right. And he's out there causing terror and mayhem and. Battling the Avengers. Edward: Fair enough. And so then, not just Avengers, he's fought the Avengers, he's fought the fantastic F, he's f the Avengers more. I think he's fought the Avengers more than he's been on the Avengers in terms of like Right. Which side he's been on. He's been anti Avenger more times than he's been Avenger. Michael: So, I should say, gee whiz, you know, I'd like to get married. I'm gonna marry my, the worst girlfriend I've ever had because, you know, Because she's been my girlfriend in the past and she was a great girlfriend for like a week and then a terrible girlfriend for like a month. And so, Edward: yeah. But Mike is this girlfriend the strongest girlfriend in the world. Michael: Well, okay, how about this? The most attractive, my most attractive girlfriend in the world. That's all I'm going for if I'm super superficial. There you go. And so that's kind of what it is, right? They're picking one serious trait. So yes, the Hulk is the strongest one there is, but he is the best teammate?  Like, yes, this woman. Is the most attractive woman I've ever dated. But is she the best girlfriend? And it's like, I don't know. I don't care. She's like the hottest, so I'm gonna go marry her. Edward: You presumably, you only have one girlfriend at a time. The Avengers have five at a time, so they need different pieces. They have Captain America who's probably the best teammate in the world and they have I dunno, the quick silver Quicksilver was the fastest in the world and the. The witch who's the most magical in the world. And so now they don't need another great teammate. They need someone who's just they have no one who's strong. They need someone who's strong. Michael: And I think my analogy holds, it's like you're my friend and you're one of the smarter friends I have and I've got other friends. Edward: Somebody say the smartest in the world would you say that, Michael: you know, I'm not gonna say, but you might. And, uh, and then you get, and then, and it's like, gee, on outta my friend network, I don't have the hottest one. So I'm the hottest one. The hottest, craziest person, coming into my life. Which is, what the adventures are doing. So, No, I think it's weird. I think it's wrong. And also, Edward: are you saying the Avengers don't have the best judgment in the world? Michael: Yeah, I am. And then on top of that, on top of that, it's hard not to notice that the Avengers are recruiting people who, a year ago we considered to be villains. Right? Edward: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. A month ago, no, two months ago. Michael: You're right. Sorry. Time flies. So we have quick Silver Scarlet Witch who used to be in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. That's terrorists. They're, they're terrorists. They're terrorists. Terrorists. Terrorists. The Commonwealth War Hawkeye Hawkeye, who was like, oh, no. Criminal? Edward: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was also a super spot. He was working with the Russians and the Soviets. Michael: That's, that's right. And then they're like, you know what? Okay, we've covered, we've covered those areas. Let's get a guy who rampages. Edward: We have, we have no vandals. We need a vandal. Vandal, the terrorist, we have the communist. We need just someone who's pure, pure anarchy. Michael: Like is Captain America a right? Is he making the decisions right now? It's like he's a little older. I guess he's been around since World War ii. Do we just step in and say like, you know, you step in and take away your parents' driver's license. You gotta say cap. You know, if you're the one driving this bus, we gotta, we got some questions, we got some concerns here. Edward: What's what's amazing to me, it's not just that they want the Hulk, it's that they haven't spoken to the Hulk. It's not like they just gotta put it out there. It feels like, it feels like, yeah, exactly. If you want the Hulk, let's get the Hulk in the room and ask and be like, Hey, listen, it's like selecting a vice president. You don't go and say, Hey, I'm looking for you like, uh, uh, Mr. Uh, vice president. Um, do you, uh, are you, uh, are you out there? I'm just gonna put an ad in the newspaper and maybe you'll. Come to me. No, you take them aside one by one and be like, Hey, if we were to ask you, would you join? And oh, by the way, if we were to ask you to join, would you stop rampaging? Would you stop destroying cities? Because that's kind of a requirement for the organization. But right now they've reduced all their ability to negotiate. The whole comes along. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna join. You want me to join? I'll join. But here's my requirements. I get to destroy five buildings every week. Take it or leave it, then what do you do? And then what do you do? Michael: And I might get into fist way with you, you know, so just, just like it or lump it, but it's happening and it's like, well, okay, maybe we shouldn't like it. Edward: Maybe putting ads and newspapers across the country was not the right choice. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    6 min

  5. 05/26/2023

    E203: Post-Avengers (Tales to Astonish #68) -- June 1965

    In this episode: Mike and Ed discuss life after being an Avenger. What are the responsibilities? What are the privileges? Do they get top secret briefings? Are they like ex-Presidents? Or like ex-FBI? Who pays for the damage they cause when Giant-Man decides to grow to 35-feet in the middle of the city and starts knocking down buildings? These are unprecedented times, but someone has to figure this out quickly! Behind the comic: This is the first adventure of Giant-Man and the Wasp post-Avengers. The story continues into the next issue, but at that point they “retire” and the title converts to dual stories of Namor and the Hulk. It turns out Giant-Man just wasn’t that popular. It didn’t help that Tales to Astonish had consistently been one of the weaker titles for the previous few years. Something needed to change. Also in this issue, the Human Top, who was originally introduced as a “normal human” who just happened to be able to spin quickly, has now developed the ability to fly… In this issue: Giant-Man and the Wasp are practicing just outside the city. A plane intentionally flies into Giant-Man, and the pilot, the Human Top, considers killing him but does not have time before Giant-Man wakes up. The Top splits, and Giant-Man returns home. Giant-Man practices his growing ability in downtown Manhattan. The Human Top then returns and battles Giant-Man and the Wasp, and Giant-Man is enraged when the Top leaves with a captured Wasp. In the Hulk story, the Hulk saves Major Talbot from dying during the Leader’s attack. Then, when the Hulk has turned back into Bruce Banner, General Ross places him under arrest for treason. The leader sends his humanoid minions to the base where Banner is being held, and while they attack Banner, he turns back into the Hulk and battles them but is knocked out as they steal an invention of Banner’s for the Leader’s use. Assumed before the next episode: People are fed up with Giant-Man leaning on their buildings, carelessly causing damage. This episode takes place: After Giant-Man has leaned on one too many buildings. Full transcript: Edward: Mike, what do you do when you retire from the Avengers? What's next? What's next on your plate? Michael: I don't know. It's hard to go higher in the superhero community, but it's also harder to get a better job in even the military or that kind of like super diplomacy community Edward: and super diplomats. Michael: Well, that's what they are, right? Like they're like, I don't know, like Warrior Kings in a way. Right? Edward: Thank you for your service, giant man. I'd not like you to be the diplomat in charge of Poland. Over there with the wasp. You can help us deal with geopolitical situations in the Eastern Republics. Michael: But that's what they've been doing though. They've been acting as Edward: the last time giant man went into the Eastern Europe, he was crashing through the Berlin wall. It's not diplomatic, it's not known for diplomacy. Michael: No, but his actions, whether they're clumsy or not, were actually affecting international relations. So that's what I mean, like the general sense of whatever they are. Edward: Yeah. So causing diplomatic relations is not the same as being a diplomat, just cuz they both have the word diplo in them. Michael: No, no, no. I'm not saying that they're, I'm not saying that that's the job. It's just that what have the Avengers been? They've saved the world. They've battled villains. They have taken upon their self to go to other countries, to act in America's interests. And then at times we've found that they've acted secretively to the same extent, further in the interest and theory of America. So I don't know what you want to call them, but they're not regular. And so you're, they're not regular. And, and your question at the start was like, well, what do you like, what do you do when you retire? Well, it's not unprecedented, but it's unusual. And so it's a good question. Edward: And so what's unusual, you're saying retiring as a superhero is unusual or retiring as an avenger is unusual. What's unusual? Michael: Retired from the Avengers is unusual because, well, yes, it's Avenger. Edward: Avengers have only been around for a couple years. No one has retired until now. But now we've had, now we have three retirements, sorry, four retirements, 1, 2, 3, 4, all at the same time. Michael: Yeah. And my point is that it's unusual. We have an experience where someone with that much power who's had such a fascinating role and influence on world affairs, is now no longer in that position?  I think there's a qualitative difference between being on the Avengers and being the go-to team for. Pretty much any big problem to be on their own. Are they still on the payroll or at least getting the status and the influence they had on Avengers? Edward: I wouldn't think so. If you're not, you can't be like, not on the Avengers, but still getting all the Avenger privileges. Michael: That's right. So that's what I mean. Somebody that tied in to International affairs in such a highly visible way and such an influential position, I would think that they don't just retire and, then our intelligence organizations are like, that's cool. I guess you just. Have all this knowledge and this know-how, and you just go off and do what you want. So I'd imagine that there's something that must tie them closer. Oh, I see what you're saying. It's like maintain them and to be still being sort of a post adventure, but still in the family. You know what I mean? Edward: Got it. You're a post, you're not in ave anymore, but now you're a post a event. It's like a presidents. When presidents retire, they still have the secret service. Follow them around everywhere. They still get paid. Right., if you're an ex-president, you still get a salary. Michael: I think so. Or some kind of pension, I don't think they'd wait till like they're, you know, like most of 'em seem to be quite old when they're president, when they retire. I don't think they, they have to wait long before they get the stipend. Right. Which makes a lot of sense as well, cuz you don't want them to Go out and say, I've been the president of the United States for eight years and now I'm interviewing for this job at General Electric. Or I might go, I think I'd like to go work in Hungary. You know what I mean? I don't think that they're gonna be like, what's next for me? As if it's just like anybody in the world. They're just not. And so I think get to pay them enough to keep them on the bench in a way, and still get to know-how and the benefit of the expertise and still have them available to contact them. I would think. Edward: Okay, there's an ex-presidents club. You think there's gonna be an ex Avengers club where they all get together and come back together and talk about, I dunno, I guess the new Avengers can ask the old Avengers for advice the presidents do that sometimes. Yeah. Michael: I think so. I mean, I'd like to think so because the alternative would be that the Avengers, so somebody who's been so tied into our security and the intelligence organizations, but also our military and our political affairs is just suddenly like, huh. Well, I gotta make a living not an Avenger anymore. Edward: Maybe I'll go rob Banks, Michael: right? Or maybe I will go maybe work for, another country. I mean, like they could, and it's unusual, like the adventures started as this voluntary group, but very quickly became integral to our security intelligence organizations, et cetera. but I bet that there are those types of organizations and associations already. I bet they just attach that type of structure over to the Avengers to make sense. Edward: Paul, you're saying there's other structures like the Avengers out there? Michael: You used presidents ex-president, as an example. I think there has to be some kind of process they can follow to say, time. Edward: But the difference is the presidents, like that's part of the constitution, like that's built into the fabric of our country and there are rules and regulations that go back. Hundreds of years. The Avengers are a couple years old. We don't even know exactly how the Avengers are affiliated with their government, how they're affiliated with Stark Corp. They're all part of this military industrial complex, and I don't think we understand what's going on. It's definitely not the way we understand what happens with the president. Michael: Well Ed, I'm not saying I'm cool with it. I find it to be the most weird you know, and people that listen to our show know this. I've always found it to be the weirdest thing that the military, the government, our intelligence organizations are like, I don't know, better get the adventures involved. I've always found it to be strange, but whether it's strange or not, they're tied in and they have this connection and they have this. Powered authority in our society. So just to have them float off and possibly just what, decide that they want to, take what they know and not do anything with it, or, Edward: yes. You're basically say we should bribe them so that they don't do that. We should have tax dollars go towards paying giant man and Thor and Iron Man in the wasp and tell them, Hey, here's a hundred grand. Uh, please don't work for the Russians. Michael: I think, I wouldn't use the word bribe, but I think it's incentivized, I suppose, but's be honest, let's be honest. You, I've had shows where, where your solution is like, I guess we gotta kill them. Or lobotomized them. I'm like, no, I'm just following your well trod path on this one. Like probably need to pay them is the better alternative than like, Like, where I know you want to go on these things where it's like, too dangerous of your life. See you later. Edward: You know, I'm gonna tell your wife about the things you've been doing, unless you give me an incentive to not do that Michael: well yeah. It's, like, protection, money pr

    12 min

  6. 05/20/2023

    E202: The Fantastic Three? Four?? Five??? (Fantastic Four #39 and #40) -- June/July 1965

    Apologizes for the delay on this episode. Edward has been traveling more than usual for business making it difficult to record. But we are back, and we should have a few more episodes recorded in time to be back on schedule next week. Stay tuned true believers! In this episode: Mike and Ed skip over the tornado that Dr. Doom used to terrorize the city, the capture of the Baxter Building, and the use of Reed Richards’ technology against himself, and jump right to the shocking news that the Thing, Ben Grimm, is leaving the Fantastic Four! Why is he leaving? Is it too hard to keep egos like this together for more than a few years? What is he going to do next? Is it a coincidence that the Avengers recently lost their four strongest members? And does this mean the Fantastic Four need to go into recruiting mode now too? The “Fantastic Three” does not have the same ring to it! Behind the Issues A lot happens in these issues: The after effects of the nuclear bomb in issue #38 cause the FF to lose their powers. Then Dr Doom attacks the team while they are helpless and they need to defeat their arch-nemesis without the benefit of powers. But all of that is secret. The FF manage to hide the fact their powers are missing while they get help from Daredevil. By the end of issue #40 they have their powers back, and Ben Grim is back to being the Thing. But in the course of the battle Ben felt un-appreciated and uses it as an excuse to leave the organization. This continuing storyline with every issue ending on a cliffhanger is Stan’s new style and we are seeing it in almost every title now, but none as connected as the Fantastic Four. In these issues: Fantastic Four #39: The Fantastic Four are rescued at sea, and they have lost their powers. Reed uses his technology to replace their powers, and they keep this information from the world. Meanwhile, Dr. Doom, who had been hypnotized by Reed previously, has this spell lifted by a local hypnotist. Doom, now in a rage at being tricked, heads back to New York City and battles the Fantastic Four, who have Daredevil on their side. They have a wild battle, with Daredevil doing a lot of the heavy lifting, leading into the next issue. Fantastic Four #40: Daredevil continues to pull the Fantastic Four’s bacon out of the fire. Meanwhile, the Four head to their headquarters, where Doom is holed up, with the local police sectioning off the city around the Four’s headquarters to allow these superpowered enemies do battle. At just the right time, the Four’s powers return, due to the ingenuity of Reed Richards, and they are able to best Dr. Doom and reclaim their headquarters. The Thing pushes them over the finish line, and they let Doom escape. And at the very end of the issue, the Thing decides that he has had it, and quits the team. Assumed before the next episode: People are wondering if the team should be called the Fantastic Five. This episode takes place: After the Fantastic Four/Five have defeated Dr. Doom and reclaimed the Baxter Building. Full Transcript Edward: Mike, there is a lot to talk about. Michael: No kidding. Edward: We could talk about the fact there's a tornado rampaging through the city destroying buildings. We can talk about Dr. Doom using Reed Richards technology against him and against all of us. We could talk about Doom. Taking over the Baxter, Building again, and threatening the Fantastic Four.  These are all things we can talk about, but we're not gonna talk about any of those things. Michael: No man. We're talking about teams. We're talking about teams. Eddie, this is exciting news. Edward: Yeah. Not just teams. We're talking about The Thing. After all this stuff happening. The Thing announcement that he is leaving the Fantastic four. The Fantastic four have always had a challenge with their brand name in that they needed four people. Now they have to deal with that problem in a real way because the Fantastic Three doesn't have the same ring to it. Michael: No. So let's look at who's leaving, right? It's the strong man of the group and he's leaving. And first of all, we don't know why. And I'd be curious about that because branding alone, you're right, you need to have four people. But we should speculate cuz it's interesting. But why would he leave? It sounds like a sweet gig. I mean, the fantastic war, they went through their hard times in the beginning of their partnership, but they've been making some good money they own the Baxter Building. And through Reed's inventions, they must make still SCDs of money. And they go on these amazing adventures Edward: And it's the status perspective. They're loved, right? They're invited to the White House and they're doing pretty well for themselves. Michael: They're the only team where we know who they are in real life too. They don't have secreted s I mean, it's an incredible thing that they have, Edward: but they also, they're close-knit group. There's only four of them. And we all know, there's rock bands that break up all the time, and you're like, why did they break up? They should never have broken up. They were so good together. But the truth is you have four people. And they're human as much as they have superpowers, they're human. And so it's not surprising that sooner or later somebody's not gonna get along. The Avengers recently broke up. We don't know why they broke up either, but I imagine personality conflicts came into it. Michael: I think you're right. And the Fantastic Forum or a special case, because they work together and they live together. They function really as a family. And you're right, just like much like rock bands break up, familiarity does breed contempt. Edward: And hey, if you're talking about family, Ben Grimm was already the odd man out. Right? Sue Storm and Johney Storm are brother and sister, and Sue is getting married to Reed. They're engaged like that. Mm-hmm. That's a legit family and well, who's Ben? Ben's a good friend. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. He's good old. Ben is hanging out with the fam and it's, yeah, Edward: college roommate or something. They're college roommates from, but like college roommates aren't the same as husband and wife or brother and sister? Michael: No, and I'm sure your wife appreciates you hearing that, talking to me, roommates, but Edward: as my college roommate, I will tell you that you do not, you're not the same as my wife. Michael: That's fair. That's fair. But in a way it seems unfair to speculate on what happened because I think we know what must have happened there. There's some kind of grievance that must have blown up and so he's leaving so, Now that he's leaving the fantastic bar. The question is where does a one ton Orange Rock monster super powerful. Super strong? Where does he go? And you mentioned it earlier where I think he's gonna go, he must be going to the Avengers. Clearly this makes sense. Total sense, right? Yeah. Edward: He's probably not gonna go and start a law firm. Not Ben Grimm thing. So security. What was Ben Grimm before he was an airplane pilot, right? I also don't think, American Airlines is looking for a new pilot Ben is not the guy. Meanwhile the Avengers have lost Thor. They lost giant man and they lost Iron Man. And they didn't, they replaced them with, we talked about this. They replaced them with a witch and a guy who runs fast and a guy who shoot bows and arrows, they have no strong man on the team. Right. It seems like a very natural fit. If they are calling up Ben Grimm and trying to recruit him right now, then they don't deserve to be in hr. Michael: You know what's funny? I would imagine that there would be some kind of between these groups have worked together before, right? And so I would imagine there would be some communication. So it almost looks like there's almost a trade going on. Not a formal trade, but, in a lot of ways, Ben has, The Thing has been a bit of an odd person to have on the Fantastic Four team, whereas in he seems like a natural fit with the Avengers.  It's sort of like how so the fantastic, how so? What do you mean? Well, the Fantastic Four are kinda like these, what I would consider to be science adventures, right? They're not there brought in to, to feed the heavy physical hitters, they're actually there to solve, more challenging problems like, dealing with outer space and other dimensions, like science type problems require science type heroes. And that's why they're led by the scientists being Reed Richards. So they're more than math club. Edward: And if again, you're, you're like, if you look at the battles the Fantastic Four has have fought. They've been won not from Bran, but because Reed Richards came up with some master plan. Michael: That's right. And I think that it doesn't hurt to have a very strong person on the team, but you're right, it's more brain over bra. So they're like the math club, if we're using high school analogies. Whereas the adventures have always been kind of the football team, you know what I mean? Like, like they're more the jocks. Like they're not the nerds like the Fantastic four doing with science problems and coming up with science solutions. The adventures are more like the bruisers who are going in just going in and fighting the Hulk, you know? And, and Edward: I'm picturing Captain America, giving, Reed Richards a wedgie. Is that what you're saying? Michael: Yeah, but that's, that's what it seems to be. And so Edward: you can stretch, sir, but can your underwear stretch? Michael: So you think about it , it kind of makes sense that the Avengers need someone like Ben, like The Thing, number one and number two, it does make sense that someone like, say, Iron Man, who's a science hero when you think about it, invented his own suit or has this mechanical suit that allows him to fly through. Edward: Oh, we don't know that. Maybe there's some dude in there, someone else made the suit. He's just along for the ride. Michael: He might be, but if he is

    7 min

  7. 05/04/2023

    E201: Lobotomy or Death! (Tales to Astonish #67) -- May 1965

    In this episode: Mike and Ed discuss the shocking loss of scientific skill among the country’s top scientists. It clearly seems purposeful, but what is the purpose? Aliens trying to keep humanity from developing new technologies? A domestic test to take away targeted abilities from exceptional people? Will they be able to take away superpowers next? And if so, is it ethical? If we can’t keep someone in prison, is the choice really between lobotomizing their abilities or capital punishment? What is the ethical choice? Ed and Mike disagree! Behind the issue: The after-effects of this issue result in Giant-Man unable to shrink smaller than a normal human for the remainder of his time in this title (which is ending soon and will be replaced with Namor. More on that when it happens!). Otherwise, nothing special here. In this issue: A guy is driving around town while being directed by a man in a hidden laboratory in a funny costume named the Supreme One. When the driver sees Giant-Man, he decides to zap him in a green ray, which causes Giant-Man to grow weak. This is because the ray is designed to steal power. The Supreme One becomes obsessed with stealing Giant-Man’s power, as he was unable to do that the first time he had someone try. To that end, he has his minion drive around town bathing scientific geniuses in the green ray, stealing their next-level scientific abilities, i.e. a top physicists forgets everything he knows about physics, etc. Giant-Man and the Wasp investigate, eventually tracking down the Supreme One, who escapes in a spaceship (turns out he is an alien). In the second story in this issue, the Hulk fights the army in a foreign nation, and when he turns to Bruce Banner, he is captured by some locals. Major Talbot is sent in to rescue Bruce Banner, and the episode ends on a cliffhanger - will Talbot and Banner fall to their deaths as they escape? Tune in next week! Assumed before the next episode: People are wondering what is happening to all the smart people. They are getting … less smart? How does that make any sense? This episode takes place: After people learn of the de-smartening that is happening. Complete transcript: Edward: All right, Mike, we're gonna change it up this week. We're gonna change it up a little bit because I have a story I think we should be talking about that's not, well, maybe it is superhuman. The scientists around the world are losing their scientific abilities Michael: right? Edward: So these are top physicists who are losing the ability to do physics or top geneticists who can't do genetics anymore. Top chemists who can't do chemistry anymore. And their brains can still do everything else. They can still have conversations, they can still love their families, but they're losing their scientific abilities. And so I think this is a super thing. We don't know who's doing it or why, but it sounds superhuman. Michael: Okay, before we get to this superhuman, if they're superhuman. Not saying that what you're saying is that Edward: No, I'm not saying human. It's a superhuman, some sort of superhuman thing. I don't think we know any scientific way to remove parts of knowledge from someone's brain like that feels like a superhuman thing. Michael: Right. So you're saying that there must be a purpose to it. This phenomena that's only targeting extremely intelligent and highly accomplished and specialized people like physicists. They're being targeted and their abilities are removed, which. Yeah, it doesn't sound normal. Edward: Um, well, it's never happened before, so therefore it is by definition, abnormal. Although it's abnormal, it's happening more and more now. So is it becoming normal? It's becoming normal. It was not normal, but now it is. Michael: It's normalized almost, and so normalized. So I guess the first question is, what's the purpose of it? So your first thing is that you're thinking that there's a super villain possibly, or an alien or something that is doing this for a reason. Right. In that it's making humanity weaker. It's making our ability to defend ourselves worse. Worse. Is that where you're kind of going on it, Edward: it sounds that way. Like, oh, you're right. Maybe it's a villain who's doing blackmail, but it seems purposeful. If it was a virus, That was just spreading around, right? And causing brain damage to people. First of all, that'd be terrifying, but secondly, it feels like that viruses don't work that way. The viruses wouldn't go and attack just the most intelligent top scientists in the world and just attack their scientific knowledge and leave everything else untouched. So you're right, it seems purposeful. Michael: And that's alarming because we know that in the last few years, in addition to what appears to be naturally occurring superhuman abilities and extraterrestrial or, paranormal, superhuman abilities, we have seen that there's been greater advances in technology, in science that have allowed humanity to reach new levels. So Iron, Man and other, you know, giant. Giant man have been able To create things that are just impossible they're fantastical. It's basically modern magic, the science that they've been able to wield so is this a preemptive attack, a taking away the ability of other people to create such modern miracles? Edward: Oh, you're right. Yeah, it could be stopping the creation of new superheroes. We know, if you look at the superheroes that are out there, a handful of them, like the X-Men seem to be that this people who are born with this weird gene that's being activated by something. But for most superheroes out there, or, super villain for that matter. It seems to be either, Some sort of science that science is doing it. That's right. Captain America is experimented on and turned into Captain America, like the Reed. Richards took fantastic four up into space and space stuff turned them into the Fantastic four. Sandman was like atomic research, whatever turned him into Sandman. So it feels, or to your point, Iron, Man and Giant Man was actually, or the porcupine, they're actually building technological wonders. And so if our top minds, the people who can like do the engineering, the people who can understand the atomic science are losing their ability to do that. Hey, maybe it is aliens. Maybe aliens are trying to put humans in their place and say, Hey, stay on the planet Earth. Stop leaving and stop developing powers. Michael: It's wild. It sounds paranoid, but at the same time it's starting to make a lot of sense. This will fundamentally weaken humanity. By taking our top scientists off the board. That's right. Quite frightening. That's right. But then the other part of it is leaving side the motivation which is alarming and I'm hopeful that say the Avengers or the various federal agencies are on top of this, you gotta wonder how they're doing it. Like how is it that they're doing almost micro lobotomies. Is it a technological basis for it or is it magical? How exactly are they doing it at all. Edward: You're right. Clearly, it's not something that anyone has done before, but someone has found a way to go and do, lobotomy is a good word. It's a very, it's like a targeted lobotomy. Because what's fascinating about this is it's not like these scientists are coming in with other brain damage. They're able to continue on their lives. Normally. They are still able to, whole jobs. Not even like they can't do normal stuff. They can do all the normal things. They just, it's like this piece of knowledge. They're cutting edge brain power and I don't even know if their intelligence was affected so much as their knowledge was affected. So if you're a scientist who's like really brilliant and spend 40 years of your life diving deep into physics, you're not gonna be able to spend another 40 years we just don't live long enough. Michael: It's quite a violation of their autonomy too. I don't want to discount that, but, however they're doing it, it's wild. And you gotta wonder if it's not some extraterrestrial kind of thing or some kind of super thing. What if it's actually a, just, it's something more domestic? We talked before about, What do you do with these super villains that you capture and have these amazing abilities? Like say, let's say Sue Storm turned into be a bad person and she has force fields and can turn Invisible. Like how do you deal with that and make, and IM prisoner if she was a villain, is this. Some technology that somehow got into the world where they've been experimenting on how to turn off abilities and it's got into the wrong hands and they're using it to turn off the abilities, for lack of a better term, of regular humans. Edward: If you're right, maybe it is just an experiment then, and they're testing to see if they can turn it on and off before they say, Hey, let's turn off the superpowers of. Sue Storm or Reed richards. Let's turn off the brain power of some physicists and you're right, if it doesn't work and they can't turn it back on again, that would be really bad. But not as bad as if we like turn off the superpowers of the Avengers because hey, that's irreplaceable. Michael: It does lead into to a consideration of like, how if this is like a deliberate thing that might be done by people on our side, say a government kind of project that got the wrong hands, that tells us I guess I've ever thought about the idea that turning off, say, superpowers is akin to a pure violation of a person's autonomy, right? It's more relatable in a way to basically make a very intelligent person, less intelligent in a particular area that is actually, it's so remarkably unethical, cuz it is effectively targeted Phlebotomy. Edward: Clearly whether it's just happening to Random intelligent people, it's unethical. But if we did this to get against the guy who was building the porcupine suit or the wizard who is like notoriously committing crimes and breaking outta prison and committing the frightful fore attac

    16 min

  8. 04/26/2023

    E200: (fixed audio!) Avengers in Name Only? (Avengers #16, Part 2) -- May 1965

    When episode 200 was first published we push the wrong audio (audio for episode 199). It has now been fixed. Apologies for the error (Thursday, April 27, 2023) In this episode: Mike and Ed continue to dive into the shocking changes to the Avengers line-up. It has now been announced that in addition to Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch will be joining the team, and all of the founding members will be leaving. Is it still the Avengers is none of the founding members are on the team? Are we concerned that 75% of the team is made up of former villains. Are they really FORMER? And even if morality was not an issue, can we expect these new members to replace the missing firepower of Iron Man, Thor, Giant Man and the Wasp? Behind the issue: There was so much to discuss in this issue we broke it into two. And we still never covered the death of Baron Zemo given it was unclear if it was ever made public. Surprisingly for the comics Baron Zemo, the archenemy of Captain America at this point in the continuity, remains dead until the present day. However his son takes on the title and continues to battle Captain America and the Avengers on an ongoing basis. In this issue: (This is a repeat of the last episode) The issue opens with the Avengers once again emerging victorious over the Masters of Evil in New York, with Captain America defeating Baron Zemo in South America. It continues with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp in New York having a team meeting and deciding to take a break from being on the team. At the same time they are having the meeting, Hawkeye breaks into their headquarters and asks to join the Avengers. His beloved Black Widow has been murdered by her employers behind the iron curtain, and he has had a change of heart on his line of work. The team decide to take him up on the offer, and on top of that, seek out new potential teammates, with the papers reporting this initiative. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver decide to apply to join the team, and they are admitted to the ranks as well. By the time Captain America returns, the team has been completed reconstituted, with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp out, and Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch in as their replacements. This episode takes place: After Cap’s kooky quartet has been announced. Full transcript: Edward: Mike, never believe the rumors. Never believe the rumors. The rumors are total bs. Can't trust those people, Micheal: even if we're the ones that are spreading the rumors in. Edward: Even that we need to stop, stop with the speculation, I think last we heard captain America and Thor were off the team. Hawkeye and someone else were on the team and now that's all been thrown for Loop. Thor is off the team, but now Iron Man and Wasp and Giant man are off the team as well. Captain America is back. It's just nothing makes sense anymore. Micheal: Well, not really, no. So our speculation before was that we found it suspicious that Hawkeye, a former villain, was on the team when the remaining three Avengers were people with power suits, basically, who could be swapped in and out, but now it's Hawkeye's off. Two more villains. Rick Silver and the Scarlet Witch are on the team. And Captain America's in charge. I mean is it really the Avengers? You know what I mean? They said isn't. Edward: There's no original ventures left. What's that? That's it. Thesis' ship You're talking about Thesis' ship. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. Yeah. They've replaced every board and brought on new boards. Is it still the same ship when none of the boards are left. Micheal: Well, what's funny is like, I think about law firms where law firms start out with a name of like, Smith and Jones, and then, eventually there's no Smith and there's no Jones. It's just a name and Edward: It's an overhand, Micheal: people treated as I think that it has the risk of being Smith and Jones in name only. And being not the same as it used to be. And maybe that's what the Avengers are. Is that Edward: the Avengers innate only? Micheal: That's Well, they are until they do something right. It does strike me. So leaving aside the fact that now it's Captain America and three former villains and going through the whole discussion of. We can skip the discussion now cause we had it last time. We spoke about, well, how do those, how does a villain get on the team? But they did apparently. Edward: Yeah. No, remember last, so last time we speculated. Okay, well maybe the other hero they're gonna bring on is a former villain we talked about Radioactive man or the Wizard, or, yeah. Mr. Hyde. It can never occurred to us that they bring on. The former Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, people like, well, I guess we talked about that before too, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants so they're all kind of they're all dead now or captive or whatever, except for two of retired, well, they didn't stay in retirement very long. Micheal: No. And they thought, you know what? Like, uh, we're good now. And, uh, and that was good enough, I guess for the federal security agency. Good enough for Captain America. Edward: Yeah. Like, they're like, we were never immoral. We were just amoral. We're joiners, we're joiners. Micheal: We just, you know, if you've got a good pitch, we'll listen. But, uh, it does seem as, it does seem quite odd and I guess, I think the best way to look at it. So leaving aside the points that we've discussed about how it's challenging to bring on villains, um, maybe give 'em a chance, but they do seem severely underpowered compared to the original Avengers team, right? Correct. Or the former Avengers team. Edward: Yeah. In terms of Ross Strength, Thor, giant man. Iron man, all three super strong. Yeah. And now like their strongest members, captain America, who is the weakling on the old team. Micheal: I know. And then, Hawkeye, good aim. Okay. And, um, I don't, we don't know much about Scarlet Witch, her powers. They seem to be kind of just, Edward: I think they're very witchy. They're like witch powers, Micheal: witchy. I don't, I mean, I don't really know. And then Chris Silver Fast. Edward: It's in the name Mike. It's in the name. Micheal: Yeah. They're both in the name, but I wonder, so with quick silver, I wonder Edward: Red, red Magic, I think she has a lot of red magic. Micheal: Well, red Magic. Oh, that's the best kind. But you think so Quicksilver, I mean, the only qualification I have is that I think being able to move at super speed could have enormous power of potential. Edward: I think that's the best power. Micheal: Yeah. If like, Edward: oh, except, except for if, you know, it's a better power. Flying fast. Running fast. Really, really good. Better flying fast. Because if there was The Thing in Europe, can, he runs so fast, he runs on water. I don't think he runs that fast. Micheal: I don't know. I don't know. But, you're the physicist. And so how does it work if Quicksilver can run, say as fast as a plane, right? Sure. Just say that. Sure. Would his body not to be super durable and super strong to withstand that pressure, like say he's running, like if I'm running really fast, fast for me, or I'm in a car going very fast and I put my hand out the window and I hit a mailbox, like think my arm will fly off, right? It's just, I'll break my arm. Edward: But don't do that, Michael. Don't do that. Micheal: Don't do that. All the listeners at home don't do that. But so quick. Edward: I teach, I teach our kids not do that. Like, don't put your arm outside the window. Just don't, it's not a thing. Micheal: Not a good idea. So if you are Quicksilver and you're running very fast, presumably he's running so fast, he's running into bugs or pounding off his face and it's probably next to impossible not to hit things. Is his body super durable result? Edward: If it is durable, it must, must have some, it must, like if nothing else, his eyes are super D, durable. The guy's not wearing goggles, right? Like he's running along and if a bug gets in his eye at 400 miles an hour, that's like, that's his eye's gone. It's a dead eye, dead eye. He's a pirate. Micheal: Yeah, he's a pirate, like in both eyes. He's not, he's probably outta the pieing business too, unless, um, well, I guess he could find a way to accommodate that, I guess. But I guess that sounds more insensitive than, I mean, but like, anyways, hopefully he doesn't lose both his eyes, but, um, Edward: he's not losing his eyes. He has some sort of super eyes. He has better eyes than Hawkeye. Micheal: Okay, so he must, so he must be powerful and if his body's durable, then I'd imagine that you're the physicist. If he hits something with that amount of speed, he just obliterates somebody, wouldn't he? Through a wall? Edward: Yeah. Yeah. This is a mathematical equation for this. It's very simple equation. It's just mass times velocity. And so the amount of damage you're gonna do is mass times velocity. And so if you go twice as fast, you can weigh half as much and still do the same amount of damage. Right. The faster he goes. So if he's, yeah, so if I charge into you and like, I dunno was making up a number, I weigh 200 pounds and I charge into you. I don't even know how fast one runs. Like I run 10 miles an hour into you. That's gonna do 10 times 200 or like 400 pounds per second image or something. But if he runs at 200 miles an hour, he can be. Much smaller than me, it would still do a lot more damage. But your point, your point, he's probably heavier than that. He's probably, he's durable and strong to begin with. Cause if he runs into something, the damage that he receives is the same damage as The Thing receives it's equal and parallel. Yeah. And usually what happens is The, Thing that's moving really fast is much bigger and stronger and runs into the other thing. So he must be like, he must have some sort of like super durability if he runs into anything otherwise he's squished. Micheal: Exactly. So, he must have super durability

    11 min
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What if... the Marvel Universe was real? In 1961 the Fantastic Four revealed themselves to the world and everything changed. Mike and Ed discuss the in-universe implications of super powers, aliens, monsters and more. From how Avenger Insurance will pay for Thor's property damage to why Spider-man needs a new PR agency, its comic books discussions in a whole new way. Every issue covered in the Marvel Universe from the very beginning. Full backstory on every episode with transcripts at www.SuperSerious616.com www.superserious616.com

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  • Creator
    www.SuperSerious616.com
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2023
  • Episodes
    208
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Edward Nevraumont
  • Show Website
    What If Marvel was Real?