Table 7 · S2 · E01 — The Art of the Ands Germany · with hosts Michel Stevens & Bram De Vos Michel and Bram packed a car in Belgium and drove eight hours into Germany to test a stereotype. Efficient. Organized. A little serious. They came back with the season's thesis instead: the best customer experiences aren't built by choosing between precision and warmth. They're built by holding on to both. Three interviews, two cities, ski jumping, river surfing, and one finger-wrestling champion. Chapters 00:00 — Why we drove eight hours to Germany 01:24 — Belgium to Munich. Eight hours, Michel's taste in music, coffee. 02:16 — Cologne. Meeting Dr Graham Hill (former plant geneticist) 03:00 — Marks & Spencer interviewed 3,000 Germans. Hired virtually none. 06:30 — The 5% rule, and why CRM isn't about customers 14:45 — Rethinking the stereotype on the way south 16:30 — Munich. Meeting Christian Peter, author of It Depends on the Ands 28:00 — AI in CX: more noise or more signal? 35:42 — The Eisbachwelle: a permanent surf wave in a city with no ocean 39:00 — Helmut Blocher: sixteen years, same conference, on purpose 43:03 — Frances Chapireau: surveys, closeness, and German trust 47:57 — South to the Alps. The Olympia Schanze. 51:00 — Thomas Post: competitive finger wrestler since age three Guests, in order of appearance Graham Hill — CX consultant, Cologne. PhD in plant genetics, three decades consulting some of the largest enterprises in Europe. Toyota-Lean lineage, jobs-to-be-done practitioner, sceptic of journey-mapping orthodoxy. LinkedIn Christian Peter — Munich-based author and former German banker. Author of It Depends on the Ands (the case for combining opposites in customer focus: data and human, automation and empathy, today and tomorrow). LinkedIn · Book Helmut Blocher — Organizer of the German CRM Forum, sixteen years and counting. Has deliberately refused to scale the event past a few hundred. Specialist in CRM, innovation, and transformation. LinkedIn · Conference Frances Chapireau — Keynote speaker at the German CRM Forum. British-born, Germany-based VoC specialist. Champion of customer-advisory boards over survey monoculture. LinkedIn Thomas Post — Reigning German champion in Fingerhakln (finger wrestling), Mittenwald. Third-generation competitor. Started at age three. Hosts Michel Stevens — Course Director, CXM Academy. CX practitioner, writer, and traveller. LinkedIn Bram De Vos — Co-host. The man who said yes to driving eight hours for a podcast. LinkedIn This episode was produced by CXM Academy, the school for people who want to actually do customer experience, not just talk about it. Use code TABLE7 for 15% off your first program. Limited time offer.